Horror Story: M&P 10 and S&W Customer Service

[sqwerl]

When the OP originally mentioned "the ring all around the bore", "the strange ring in the rifle's bore," it sounded like he was trying to posit that as the cause of the barrel split, hence a manufacturing defect. "I never dropped the rifle, or pushed it into the ground..."

Has the position drifted from replacing a defective barrel under warranty to not being able to buy a barrel to replace one split do to possible operator error? By post #46 the position has changed to, "However, I do not doubt that the barrel split because of some kind of obstruction. I realize that it is possible I did something to cause it, and I don't care whether S&W fixes it for free... all I want to do is buy a barrel."

Personally, I'd want to see more clarity on this before throwing S&W under the bus.

Yes, this thread and the identical threads he has started on a handful of different other forums start out with this long Horror Story rant. What it boils down to is according to S&W, there was no defect in the barrel and the OP is only mad S&W won't sell him a spare. Now he is on a smear campaign.

People are taking his horror story as the gospel and swear off all S&W products.

As mentioned before. The barrel did not split due to a defect on SW part. There is more to the "story" The AR 10 is relatively new to SW. They do not have extra barrels laying around. All inventory is dedicated to the production line.

AR 10's from what I know, are not "Mil Spec", different brands are all a bit . well, different.

Without know all the details from SW it is impossible to say what is going on. As I mentioned in a previous thread I had a bad as inaccurate barrel on my AR 15. They simply replaced the whole upper. They stated they do not replace barrels as it it is more costly. Easier and cheaper to just put on a new upper (on a AR 15)

I just hate to see SW bashed for poor service when in fact they have some of the best in the business. Yes, I have dealt with them many, many times.

I'm also assuming this is why they won't sell spares. They sell parts to a lot of other guns, right? So why would they pull production for parts to people that just want to buy them outright or if they have the parts why would they let them sit and collect dust instead of selling them?

The rifle came out at the 2013 SHOT show which was only two years ago. How many other companies with a two year old, popular, totally new design firearm are already setting aside spare parts?

I was a little worried about this buying an M&P10 but I realize that if something defective breaks not due to my mistakes S&W by all accounts will make it right.

 

[GAMEOVER44]

I havent read all the replys but have you looked into an aftermarket Match Grade barrel? I just got a Ruger Gunsite Scout rebarred to 358 Winchester made by Shilen.

Its something id look into.. anyway id NEVER do business with S&W again. Their guns are WAY over rated. The M&P pistols are garbage too imo. My father who works at a gun shop told me they come back all the time for different reasons.

 

[JFtheGR8]

I don't take the OP's word as gospel but it's enough doubt for me to choose another manufacturer for an AR 10 type rifle. I wish that he had pictures to post and he really should have had that suspected ring or barrel defect checked out before shooting the rifle. If he suspected that there was something not right with the barrel but shot it anyway I figure it's on him and not S&W. I've worked in manufacturing and I know the crap that first line managers will push through to stay on schedule when supply is low. The fact that they won't supply replacement parts makes me think even more in that direction.

 

[moxie]

"I just got a Ruger Gunsite Scout rebarred to 358 Winchester made by Shilen."

Surprised to hear that! Thought Shilen used stainless or chrome-moly.

 

[GAMEOVER44]

No they offer a "Matte Black" finish on their Match Grade barrels. It was selected, by my father who happens to be a gunsmith and Vietnam vet as well. I know they off stainless though not sure about chrome. eww

Thank you for your service.

 

[Rule3]

The replies on the SW forum are much fewer and different

The SW forum is not affiliated at all with the Company.

 

[urbaneruralite]

It seems to me the barrel was defective, but S&W can't be expected to realize that because the barrel was split before they had a chance to look at it. It's just an unfortunate coincidence.

The point about S&W's gun being problematic to support in the aftermarket is noteworthy. Knowing that, I can't see anyone buying one.

I would look at having the barrel chopped and made ready for a suppressor. Double check this, but you should be able to sell the rifle as such as long as the lower and short upper were kept separate after modification and until the tax stamp was obtained. This strategy should regain some of the lost value, rather than total loss. Then again, maybe you should try to sell it as a candidate for such a project with full disclosure of the challenge of replacing the barrel.

 

[G.barnes]

I have to believe if they were selling so many rifles that they couldn't get enough parts for spare that they wouldn't be dropping the price into psa territory. What if someone just wants a spare bolt and barrel because they shoot a lot.

 

[grter]

Then they are screwed. If this is true S&W would want them to open their pocket books and dish out the cash for a whole new rifle.

This is the first I have heard of an AR platform this proprietary paired with a company policy promoting planned obselence.

Thankfully this is not an issued rifle in professions where one would depend on it in adverse conditions. Don't even think of taking it out in the middle of nowhere since you will not be sold nor be likely to find proprietary parts for this non standard design.

No thank you.

 

[wild willy]

Amazing
I don't know you I don't know if you are the most honest person on earth or the biggest liar.I don't know if you rammed your barrel in the mud or not.The only person that knows that is you.But because of your story some on here think S&W is the biggest SOBs in the world.Like I said I don't know and either does anyone else.Like some I think there is more to the story.I would think that an attorney should know what to do without internet advice.

 

[robmints]

Moxie and the rest who are questioning motives or expectations, this is how he summed up the OP:

Now on to dealing with S&W's customer service. I called and was eventually able to reach a CS rep, who e-mailed me a return shipping label, and I sent the rifle off. About 2 months later, I received a letter stating that they determined that the split barrel was not due to a defect in workmanship or materials, and that they were declining to fix it under warranty. They did, however, offer to sell me a replacement rifle for $1100 and change. I called the rep whose name was on the letter, and asked how much a new barrel for the rifle would cost. I was shocked when he told me that they do not currently sell barrels separately for the M&P 10. I asked how much they would charge me to re-barrel the rifle if I paid for the work. He said he would have to check with management to see if this was even a possibility. After not hearing from anyone in a few weeks, I called, left messages, and finally heard back from one of their senior engineers who told me that his supervisor told him that they cannot replace just the barrel assembly on a rifle. I confirmed that they did not sell M&P 10 barrels. I said, somewhat incredulously, "so you won't warranty it, you won't fix it, and you won't sell me the parts to fix it myself? I basically have an $1100 paperweight?" He seemed somewhat embarrassed to have to give me this news. He said that he had no control over what management's policies were, and that if it were up to him, he would replace the barrel for a small fee. He said he was going to return the rifle to me.

So that's my situation. I have a broken rifle with well over $1000 tied up in it, with no way to either have it fixed, or to fix it myself. I suppose I put myself in that situation, by buying a proprietary design from a company that doesn't stand behind their products. Well, good job Smith & Wesson. You fooled me once. One thing is for sure though... I am not going to make that mistake again. Oh, and I'm going to be carrying a Glock from now on.

I read into that a hope of warranty, but not an expectation. The expectation is that he would be able to get parts for a modular design that is a current product. I would have the same unreasonable hope, and the same reasonable expectation. I don't see any reason to dis-believe the owner and I think his frustration is understandable.

Do you guys have some reason to think the op is trying to work a scam out of this situation? Do you think he has an unreasonable complaint?

 

[moxie]

robmints,
wild willy puts some good perspective on it.

I do think there is info missing from the story. There are two issues, the warranty issue and the lack of barrel availability issue. The OP did try to link the barrel ring issue, for which there is no evidence, with the barrel split, but later proffered he might have caused the problem himself. Compare posts #1 and #46. There are no pictures of the problem. We have not seen anything directly from S&W on the matter. The lack of barrel availability is problematic, but, again, we've not heard direct from S&W. We also don't know how S&W was approached on this issue. We all know that customer service is often largely dependent on the customer's approach.

I'm not saying I disbelieve the OP. What I am saying is the case is not nearly compelling enough from what we've seen so far to warrant putting a negative judgment on S&W.

Let's wait for this to gel a little and see what transpires.

 

[GAMEOVER44]

After reading this post again I think the OP was foolish to be shooting that rifle with a circle in the bore. And, since it broke AT THE CIRCLE this was obviously the cause of the malfunction. If I had anything wrong with my barrel id get it replaced or at least have it looked at before shooting it, ESPECIALLY a competition shooting rifle. No offense OP.

 

[sqwerl]

Do you guys have some reason to think the op is trying to work a scam out of this situation? Do you think he has an unreasonable complaint?

I think his complaint is reasonable. What I do take issue with is the temperamental nature in how he is posting his Horror Story on every gun forum he can find with this whole rant.
His first post leads people to believe something was wrong with the barrel and S&W wouldn't fix it.

Then he goes on to admit it may have been his fault. What is the likely case?
He got mud in his barrel or some other bore obstruction because he said it was shooting fine earlier. The barrel didn't just develop an obstruction on its own.

I'm disappointed that parts aren't available as of yet. I would bet that M&P15 parts weren't available for a while but they are now and so are parts for most of their other guns. I knew this when I bought the rifle. S&W reps have said that parts will eventually become available through vendors. If I wanted tier 1 support I would have bought an LMT, KAC or Larue. All proprietary by the way. If I wanted to overspend on a whole other mess of proprietary parts I would have overpaid for an Armalite.

A great deal of parts are common like the LPK and some DPMS parts will fit. It would be nice if S&W supplied this list of compatible parts but that might opens up a whole can of worms for them. You can find out on Brownells part Q&A some DPMS parts that will fit. You can replace your barrel with a DPMS pattern. A DPMS bolt/BCG will supposedly lock up in the S&W barrel extension but not vice verse. If and when I decide to replace my barrel with a heavier profile, I will go the DPMS barrel and bolt route.

I didn't want a hodge podge build, not that anything is wrong with that. I wanted good warranty support and I expect that or I will have a problem. There seems to be no problem with S&W handling legitimate warranty issues.

 

[Rule3]

The op has one (1) post over at the SW forum. No support over there for his claim.

Same post. It is a Horror story which begins with some type of ring on the barrel

He bought the rifle last year When is unknown.

A friend told him about another rifle on another forum that also had this mystery ring.??

Fired the rifle and all was well and it worked fine.

Then the run and gun and rifle was in the water, mud whatever.

Barrel splits.

Story changes from ring around the barrel to maybe the OP did plug it up??

No pictures of the ring or split barrel??

No copy of the letter from SW??

All very very strange indeed.

 

[sqwerl]

To add to this.
The OP drilled his gas port. While not a big deal if done right he did void his warranty and mistakes do happen.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_121/655848_Got_my_MandP_10_to_run_on_7_62____drilled_gas_port.html

I am one of the many M&P 10 owners who has had trouble getting the rifle to run reliably on 7.62x51 NATO spec ammo. Apparently S&W designed the rifle only to run on near max pressure .308 loads... why they would do that I have no idea. Anyhow, I originally fitted the rifle with an A2 receiver extension, AR-10 rifle buffer and spring, and Magpul fixed rifle stock. When I started having under gassing issues (failure to lock back on empty and frequent bolt-over FTE malfs), I switched it back to the factory carbine stock setup. It still had the same issues. Ruling out buffer issues, I pretty well had it narrowed down to gas. I first checked the gas block for alignment. No problems there, so I decided to drill out the gas port. A 5/64" bit is the smallest that wouldn't fit in the port, so that's what I used. I stuck an old cleaning rod down the barrel so the bit wouldn't come through and nick the other side of the bore, and drilled it, trying to keep the bit straight. No problem. I reinstalled the gas block, ran a bore snake through a couple times to get rid of metal shavings, and commenced live fire testing. It ran several different types of surplus 7.62 without any malfunctions, and it always locked back on empty. No signs of over pressure or violent extraction. It ejected the brass at 90 degrees or a little more. This was back with the fixed stock/AR10 buffer stock setup.

Anyway, I know a lot of you have had the same issue... just wanted to let you know what worked for me.

 

[Rule3]

The plot thickens, from the website post above about drilling the gas port:

"I only put maybe 150 rounds through it, but I bought the rifle used, so no telling what it has seen. It never once locked back on empty and jammed so frequently that there was no point throwing good money after bad once I figured out it was a gas condition. There is no "breaking in" when the problem is that bad."

 

[sqwerl]

^Wow. Just...wow.

I totally missed that part. So he bought a pre-FUBARed rifle and instead of sending it back he decided to take matters in how own hands.

 

[jerkface11]

None of that matters they should sell him a barrel.

 

[moxie]

Gelling...

 

[grter]

I agree, none of it matters, they should rebarrel it or sell him a new upper.

 

[sappyg]

OP is MIA.

Perhaps he can join us to make things perfectly clear?

 

[sqwerl]

I think it does matter. It calls into question the half truth of the OPs one side of the story and what really happened. Where are the emails and a copy of the letter he supposedly received?

If by the time he posted here as irate as he was I could only imagine how he spoke to S&W CS and the attitude he had with them. I would refuse to deal with him.

Edit:
To the OP or anybody that feels their S&W are POS now, I will offer to buy them.

At POS prices of course

 

[sappyg]

I agree, none of it matters, they should rebarrel it or sell him a new upper.

Maybe.

Should they? That's up to S&W. It's their right to refuse service.

Could they? Probably. Is S&W legally obligated to? Nope.

Would they? In this case looks like the answer is no.

 

[jerkface11]

Only the crappiest of companies would refuse to sell replacement parts.