How is a safety worse than a decocker for carry?
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Hangingrock
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If by chance you are left-handed in the right-handed world, the world is a little bit kinder then lets say 50 plus years in the past. Fifty plus years in the past the Marine Corps didn't want to hear that you were left handed. They considered it to be a handicap. Lefthanders in the the right-hand world are constantly adapting. When I was issued a 1911A1 ambidextrous was terminology that most individuals had never heard of or even understood. Thus I adapted by using my right-hand qualified Expert. Being adaptable is key to competency with different firearms manual of arms.
Our environments tend to teach us. I live in the well-watered, thickly-vegetated part of Texas. The well-named Big Thicket Natural Reserve is nearby. I will not trust a safety/de-cock lever to remain in position, as I move through my environment. Even in an urban setting, things can happen. One time, I charged through a hedge, to get to the location of a fellow LEO who had broadcast a shots-fired incident, and a gun came out of my ankle holster. (Thankfully, it was still there, when I retraced my steps.)
One of my fellow LEOs was backed into a chain-link fence, during a physical struggle. The heel-clip mag release, on his old-style P220 pistol, was snagged by the fence, allowing a partial mag drop, relegating his pistol to single-shot status. My P220’s heel-clip mag release tended to snag the upholstery in patrol cars, resulting in three or four partial mag drops, in two years. (This prompted me to return to using revolvers while on duty, for four more years, until 1997, when I started toting 1911 duty pistols.)
So, I am drilling to always make contact with the safety/de-cock lever, of my 3913 TSW, to ensure its off-safe status, pointed toward the opponent/target, as part of each draw stroke, as I did with my first 3913, in the Nineties. (My current 3913 TSW is a recent acquisition, not yet vetted in live-fire, so whether I start carrying it remains to be seen.) Carrying such a pistol off-safe is fine, but if it is a defensive weapon, I do not want a dead trigger to catch me by surprise. We are adults here, so I will not tell anyone else what to do.
One of my fellow LEOs was backed into a chain-link fence, during a physical struggle. The heel-clip mag release, on his old-style P220 pistol, was snagged by the fence, allowing a partial mag drop, relegating his pistol to single-shot status. My P220’s heel-clip mag release tended to snag the upholstery in patrol cars, resulting in three or four partial mag drops, in two years. (This prompted me to return to using revolvers while on duty, for four more years, until 1997, when I started toting 1911 duty pistols.)
So, I am drilling to always make contact with the safety/de-cock lever, of my 3913 TSW, to ensure its off-safe status, pointed toward the opponent/target, as part of each draw stroke, as I did with my first 3913, in the Nineties. (My current 3913 TSW is a recent acquisition, not yet vetted in live-fire, so whether I start carrying it remains to be seen.) Carrying such a pistol off-safe is fine, but if it is a defensive weapon, I do not want a dead trigger to catch me by surprise. We are adults here, so I will not tell anyone else what to do.
I’ll bet your reloads were fast, with that more-dextrous left hand inserting the fresh mags.
We lefties are actually not (usually) handicapped, tending to be more-ambidextrous than the general population.
Some folks have noticed, while we were eating at an Asian restaurant, that I was eating with a spoon in one hand, and chopsticks in the other. I would say, “Oh, spoons are easy; watch this.” I would then eat with two pairs of chopsticks, one pair in each hand.
Not saying it is easy; I had to really train hard, to use chopsticks in my right hand.
Monac
Member
When people are done explaining this, could somebody explain the Remington R51's trigger setup to me? That was a SA gun with NO decocker or safety other than a grip safety...and nobody seemed to think that was a bad idea. I thought it was a bizarre thing to put on the market in the 21st century. People have forgotten about it now, because lousy execution made the whole pistol crash and burn, but the safety aspect was not one of the reasons.
Monac
Member
Plus the firing pin is full reach, so if the mainspring breaks, you can just bang on the hammer with a rock! Just like Great-grandpa did with his Colt SAA.
toivo
Member
Have to admit that I don't train nearly enough, but the last class I took, the instructor would command "Safety or de-cock, re-holster" after each course of fire. I was using a CZ-82 with no decocker, which can be carried hammer-down for DA/SA or cocked-and-locked for SA first shot. I carried it hammer-down, so I had to manually decock each time. It can be done safely, but you really need to practice it with an empty gun until it's automatic.
Now I carry striker-fired only. I have no problem with DA/SA for range fun, but I think "simpler is better" for concealed carry.
Charlie98
Member
I agree... that's why I carry a Kahr, now. No safety, no decocker... just a long, smooth trigger, like a revolver.
Zendude
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Are we considering 3 different types? DA/SA with decocker only, DA/SA with decocker and safety, and SAO with thumb safety? The first seems to the least fiddly of the 3 if that’s the question.
herrwalther
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A DA/SA pistol with decocker only will still fire when you pull the trigger. The hatred against safeties is you will "forget" to take the safety off while stressed.
Big “IMHO” here;
I like the decockers on my Sig P2XX guns, I really like HK button decockers, it’s all I really want or need on my P30 and P2000, but I can live with the thumb safety on my HK45.
The only thing I don’t like about my CZ P-01 is the decocker, I’m not that crazy about the thumb safety on my 75B, but it beats a “BD”.
Like I said, just “MHO”.
I like the decockers on my Sig P2XX guns, I really like HK button decockers, it’s all I really want or need on my P30 and P2000, but I can live with the thumb safety on my HK45.
The only thing I don’t like about my CZ P-01 is the decocker, I’m not that crazy about the thumb safety on my 75B, but it beats a “BD”.
Like I said, just “MHO”.
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riverats
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Safeties; decockers; half-cocked hammers; no round in the chamber ... what’s the rumpus?!
Please pardon Helmut Weldle & myself as we squeeze our way in & out of this thread ;-)
Please pardon Helmut Weldle & myself as we squeeze our way in & out of this thread ;-)
Zaydok Allen
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If the threat is down and you are reholstering, of course it is less stressful than when getting ready to fire at a threat.
But I'd argue that someone who can't remember or safely accomplish either of these shouldn't be carrying a gun at all.
OP
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KarateHottie93
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It may be less stressful but there's a huge adrenaline dump. Plus your ears will most certainly be ringing like hell.
The bottom point is something I agree with.
I only brought this topic up to begin with because people recommend against carrying with a safety so often.
The bottom point is something I agree with.
I only brought this topic up to begin with because people recommend against carrying with a safety so often.
Howland937
Member
I don't see it as much different than small game or bird hunting where shots are taken on "the jump". I've carried semi and pump action shotguns with rounds chambered and safety on. Rabbit, quail etc...takes off, safety is disengaged as the shotgun is being shouldered, before my finger enters the trigger gaurd. My 1911 safety is being disengaged as the gun is coming up, with my finger clear of the trigger guard.
Now, if I didn't shoot regularly and have familiarization with either the shotgun or the 1911...say, the safety on a Mossberg when all I've carried is a Remington 1100...I can see (have seen) it being more difficult.
Point being, if it's what you use, know inside and out it becomes muscle memory.
Now, if I didn't shoot regularly and have familiarization with either the shotgun or the 1911...say, the safety on a Mossberg when all I've carried is a Remington 1100...I can see (have seen) it being more difficult.
Point being, if it's what you use, know inside and out it becomes muscle memory.
JR24
Member
Well said, and also goes to the point of the disadvantage if you don't have muscle memory if you've ever had to borrow a shotgun (or bought a new model) with an unfamiliar safety setup while upland game hunting, especially grouse.
Lost many a grouse trying to pop a crossbolt safety on a gun that had a thumb safety on a few trips.
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Howland937
Member
Precisely... Right up there with having to look for the safety as the whole herd of deer you waited patiently for sees you fidgeting with your shotgun and runs away.
gc70
Member
The majority of striker-fired pistols do not have either decockers or manual safeties. While earlier Glocks had relatively long trigger strokes and pull weights in the 6.0-6.5 pound range, the trend over time has been to shorter pulls and lighter weight. Today, most striker-fired pistols do not have substantially different triggers from SA hammer-fired pistols or the SA mode in DA/SA pistols. Few people seem to think the typical striker-fired pistol is bizarre. Why should having a hammer rather than a striker as the firing mechanism make a difference?
The Remington R51's grip safety was more than most striker-fired pistols have (Springfield XDs being an exception).
Walther's PPX and Creed were hammer-fired pistols without a decocker, manual safety, or grip safety, relying for safety on a 1/2-inch trigger stroke and 6.5 pound trigger weight that was roughly the same as a Glock 17 Gen 3.
Smith & Wesson's Shield EZ is a hammer-fired pistol with a grip safety, but no decocker and a manual safety is optional.
Monac
Member
Yes, I understand the Glock setup. The idea is that trigger pull that is longer and springier than a normal single action pull but still is reasonably safe without a safety catch while still not as long and springy (and detrimental to accuracy) as a conventional double action trigger pull. The thing about the Remington R51 is that it did not have a Glock kind of trigger mechanism. It had a conventional single-action trigger. It was like a 1911 without a manual safety. Ever seen one of those? Me neither. (OK, maybe the Frommer "Stop" and the Fegyvergyar 29M and 37M, The fact that they are so obscure kind of supports my point.)
BTW, I am sorry to nitpick, but I cannot help myself now that I have got going: "striker-fired" is not a synonym for "Glock type trigger system". Single action striker fired pistols have been around at least since since FN put the Browning Model 1899/1900 on the market, and the Remington R51 was one of them. DAO striker fired pistols are less common, but have been around at least since the LeFrancais 6.35mm before 1914. Many SA striker fired pistols, like the Ruger 22 target pistols, are still in production. The Glock system only dates back to the 1980's. (OK, maybe it goes back to the Roth-Steyr 1907, but once again, the fact it is so obscure kind of supports my point.)
I am not annoyed with you, gc70. It is more of an old-man-yelling-at-clouds situation.
JR24
Member
Though not really a 1911. The, sadly failed, Hudson H9 was like that. XDs don't have all that much pretravel either and are fully loaded strikers (I think) with grip safety.
gc70
Member
Yes, I understand the Glock setup. The idea is that trigger pull that is longer and springier than a normal single action pull but still is reasonably safe without a safety catch while still not as long and springy (and detrimental to accuracy) as a conventional double action trigger pull. The thing about the Remington R51 is that it did not have a Glock kind of trigger mechanism. It had a conventional single-action trigger. It was like a 1911 without a manual safety. Ever seen one of those? Me neither. (OK, maybe the Frommer "Stop" and the Fegyvergyar 29M and 37M, The fact that they are so obscure kind of supports my point.)
BTW, I am sorry to nitpick, but I cannot help myself now that I have got going: "striker-fired" is not a synonym for "Glock type trigger system". Single action striker fired pistols have been around at least since since FN put the Browning Model 1899/1900 on the market, and the Remington R51 was one of them. DAO striker fired pistols are less common, but have been around at least since the LeFrancais 6.35mm before 1914. Many SA striker fired pistols, like the Ruger 22 target pistols, are still in production. The Glock system only dates back to the 1980's. (OK, maybe it goes back to the Roth-Steyr 1907, but once again, the fact it is so obscure kind of supports my point.)
I am not annoyed with you, gc70. It is more of an old-man-yelling-at-clouds situation.
The big disconnect in any discussion of pistol triggers comes from trying to reach conclusions based on the traditional categories of single-action or double-action and striker-fired or hammer-fired.
We want guns to fire when we intentionally pull the trigger and do not want guns to fire in other situations. With respect to potential safety, the factors that underlie everything else are trigger travel distance and trigger pull weight. The question then becomes whether external safety mechanisms are also needed to prevent unintentional trigger pulls and under what circumstances.
[my rant] People don't seem to be troubled with a Walther PPQ being carried with a trigger weight of less than 5 pounds, a reset of 1/10" and no external safeties, but lose their minds over the idea of a 1911 with a 5-pound trigger and a grip safety being carried without the thumb safety engaged. [/rant]
Ruger Mark # series pistols are hammer-fired
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cslinger
Member
People who shoot single action will swipe a “safety” off on every gun they shoot. They are so conditioned to it they will swipe off “the safety” on a Glock or SIG etc. you get the point.
Myself, being a DA/SA guy at heart have “decocked” many a Glock and I always “ride the hammer” of every Glock back into the holster..
Like was said it’s a training issue and I’d rather worry about holstering a cocked DA/SA with a 4.5-5lb trigger pull then forgetting to swipe a safety off when it’s 2 way range time. I mean I realize it would be absolutely crazy to holster a gun with a cocked firing pin and a short trigger motions COUGHPPQP320M&PetcCOUGH. Sorry I had a Glock in my throat. but I’d rather run the risk of accidentally not decocking vs forgetting the safety.
Myself, being a DA/SA guy at heart have “decocked” many a Glock and I always “ride the hammer” of every Glock back into the holster.
. Like was said it’s a training issue and I’d rather worry about holstering a cocked DA/SA with a 4.5-5lb trigger pull then forgetting to swipe a safety off when it’s 2 way range time. I mean I realize it would be absolutely crazy to holster a gun with a cocked firing pin and a short trigger motions COUGHPPQP320M&PetcCOUGH. Sorry I had a Glock in my throat.
but I’d rather run the risk of accidentally not decocking vs forgetting the safety.cslinger
Member
JR24
Member
As a generality I am fine with striker guns without a safety, especially Glock.
The PPQ would be one I think I'd feel better with a manual safety, the trigger just feels too light and short to me.
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