How is a safety worse than a decocker for carry?

[KarateHottie93]

Obviously you have to remember to disengage the safety on a 1911 or any other SA before firing, and to reengage it afterwards.

I rarely hear people mention how that last step also applies when talking about DASA guns though, and it drives me insane!

What good is taking down the threat if you forget to decock your gun, and end up shooting yourself or someone else?

Sorry to rant...I carry DASA usually. This whole notion that DASA is completely thoughtless, but single actions are impossible to work under pressure clearly bothers me more than it probably should.

Edit: Okay, so this is apparently confusing. Everyone says not to carry a SA because you have to remember to manipulate the safety before firing and after firing. Many of these same people often recommend a DASA. What often fails to get mentioned is that you still have to remember to manipulate your decocker after firing unless you emptied your magazine.

Let's say you fire 6 out if 11 rounds and want to reholster the firearm. Will someone that can't remember to manipulate a safety under pressure remember to manipulate a decocker under pressure?

 

[UncleEd]

KH93,

I've read the posting five, maybe six times.

And I'm still not sure
what you're trying to say.

Is it that whether DA or SA one must
remember to engage whatever type of safety exists for an auto
when the hammer is in the firing position?

Or are you thinking of a double action only auto such as found on
the Beretta D model?

From your title I'd just assume the decocker is the
"safety."

Just don't get the references to "thoughtless" vs. "impossible."

 

[Offhand McFlan]

I just got a Ruger P89DC (decocker only, no safety). Its my first of this type and I'm fine with it. It's really not much different than carrying a revolver. It's got a nice tight but smooth DA pull and I'll never have to worry about flicking off a safety to respond to a threat.

However, I want to understand that particular decocker mechanism a little better. I don't EVER want a nasty surprise from that. I've heard occasionally horror stories about some decockers decocking....right on top of a live round and making them go bang. It's something that's very hard to trust completely, especially indoors.

 

[KarateHottie93]

KH93,

I've read the posting five, maybe six times.

And I'm still not sure
what you're trying to say.

Is it that whether DA or SA one must
remember to engage whatever type of safety exists for an auto
when the hammer is in the firing position?

Or are you thinking of a double action only auto such as found on
the Beretta D model?

From your title I'd just assume the decocker is the
"safety."

Just don't get the references to "thoughtless" vs. "impossible."

My point is that people always say not to carry a single action because you have to remember to manipulate the safety under pressure.

It's the same with a decker though...at least after firing. Unless you do a mag dump, you still have to remember to decock the firearm.

If someone can't remember their manual safety, how is anyone sure they'll remember to decock after the thread is subdued?

 

[toivo]

Let me start out by saying that I've never had to operate a firearm under life-or-death pressure, but ... I'm thinking that when you get to the part where you're ready to reholster, your stress is going to be somewhat lower than when you're trying to get your pistol going before somebody kills you. When the shooting is over, you'll be able to slow down a bit and think about what you're doing.

 

[KarateHottie93]

Let me start out by saying that I've never had to operate a firearm under life-or-death pressure, but ... I'm thinking that when you get to the part where you're ready to reholster, your stress is going to be somewhat lower than when you're trying to get your pistol going before somebody kills you. When the shooting is over, you'll be able to slow down a bit and think about what you're doing.

I've thought about that a lot. It's definitely the biggest clear cut advantage. At the same time, a lot of people who carry a SA tend to train the safety religiously. I don't see too many DASA people practice decocker drills. It seems like most just decock when they first chamber a round and then dump the mag. Do any of you personally do drills where you fire so many rounds, decock, and then holster?

It's just a topic that really intrigues me?

 

[JR24]

It's not. One difference though is that by the time you are decocking the threat is over, so maybe it's not quite as potentially life threatening, especially since you still can holster a DA/SA pistol, and should be able to, safely without decocking.

Personally I think it's all down to training and repetition for both. Sure, if you don't spent the time with a SAO gun you might not hit the point where disengaging the safety is routine as putting sights on target, or getting your grip and in a high stress situation you might forget, but if you don't train with a heavy DA first shot you might pull that first shot and miss, which could hurt a bystander or give the bad guy the edge he needs to win as it seems the first to hit often wins. So just pick a style and train a lot, dry fire, live fire, etc.

I think swapping between multiple options routinely without the muscle memory in place to properly work the safety or trigger pull every time is where folks might run into trouble.

Let me start out by saying that I've never had to operate a firearm under life-or-death pressure, but ... I'm thinking that when you get to the part where you're ready to reholster, your stress is going to be somewhat lower than when you're trying to get your pistol going before somebody kills you. When the shooting is over, you'll be able to slow down a bit and think about what you're doing.

I haven't either, but I disagree a bit only through some other intense situation, like car accidents and the like. For me, actions "in the moment" were clear as day and practice and experience led me to make the correct decisions and twice likely saved my life.

Afterwards, during the adrenaline dump, I got shaky and really spacy, was having issues concentrating and focusing on simple tasks for a bit of time, I'd be more likely to make a simple mistake with a firearm at that point I think, just judging from my own experience.

 

[JTQ]

Do any of you personally do drills where you fire so many rounds, decock, and then holster?

Sure. I'd think everybody that carries a DA/SA gun does that.

Typically, you'd practice draw to the DA pull quite a bit, you'd practice the draw to DA to SA transition, and to do those you'd practice draw to shoot and decock and re-holster.

 

[jmr40]

I'm glad to see several manufacturers offering modern striker fired pistols that also incorporate a 1911 style safety. I started with a 1911 and that style safety is 2nd nature to me. I tried traditional DA/SA pistols and could just never master the change from the 1st DA shot and later SA shots. I never cared for the "backwards" safety like used on Beretta 92. And with the long heavy 1st trigger pull never felt the need for a safety at all. If I were going to use a DA/SA I liked the Sig 226 series much better with just a decocker.

I settled on Glocks as my preferred pistol for a variety of reasons, but always felt I'd like one better if it had a 1911 style safety. I don't have a problem carrying without a safety as long as the gun is in a proper holster, but there are times when a safety could help. I bought one of the military Sig M17's that uses a 1911 style safety and found that I liked it a lot. I've since added the Sig 365 with a safety and a couple of Smith M&P's with a safety.

The Sig's have a shorter/lighter trigger than my Glocks and the safety is more appropriate. They feel close to true SA whereas the Glocks feel more like DAO. Both of my Smiths have aftermarket triggers that rival a 1911 trigger. I'd no more trust those guns with no safety than I would a 1911. For me this is the perfect compromise.

 

[Sistema1927]

Each type has its place. This is not a hardware issue so much as a software one. Whatever you carry, you need to be proficient with it.

At the same time, the ultimate safety resides between your ears.

 

[AK103K]

I think with any of them, you work things out in practice until you don't have to consciously think about doing things.

For me, with my DA guns, I decock when Im finished shooting for the moment, and the gun comes below the line of sight and into a low ready.

 

[Rexster]

My first handgun was a 1911, in 1982 or 1983. Operating the thumb safety has seemed natural, since then. When I carried DA/SA pistols, with de-cockers, in the early Nineties, I did, indeed, do de-cock drills. (SIG P220, S&W 3913)

I added a railed S&W 3913 TSW in 2019, and COVID then interrupted the vetting process, so I have not yet carried it, but I have done plenty of dry drills in the manipulation of the safety/de-cock levers. (I have never met an ambidextrous 1911 safety that I liked, and with my aging right thumb and wrist having become intolerant of “compact nine” muzzle flip, the newly-acquired 3913, with its ambidextrous safety/de-cock levers, is intended to be a dedicated lefty gun.)

Safe gun handling is certainly relevant, but I like a DA/SA autoloader because long-stroke DA is my least-perishable trigger skill, and that first shot is so very important. I can be very deliberate with a decently smooth DA trigger, whether the weapon is a DA revolver, or DA auto. I would not only train to de-cock before holstering, but to de-cock any time there was a pause in the shooting, such as the target turning away, on the police range.

 

[JTQ]

I never cared for the "backwards" safety like used on Beretta 92. And with the long heavy 1st trigger pull never felt the need for a safety at all. If I were going to use a DA/SA I liked the Sig 226 series much better with just a decocker.

Just because a DA/SA gun has a manual safety doesn't mean you should carry it with the safety engaged. Carry it just like your decocker only SIG with the hammer down with the safety off. The safety gives you options for administratively handling the gun.

Edit to add: The "backwards" lever on the Beretta (and Walther, and S&W, and Ruger, etc.) functionally operates in the same direction as the SIG decocker - down to decock.

 

[huntsman]

I carried a DA/SA for a few years and when you fire the gun you should always decock before holstering, if you draw and don’t fire no big deal just holster.

I never kept safety on but still would sweep it on draw.

 

[Charlie98]

This whole notion that DASA is completely thoughtless, but single actions are impossible to work under pressure clearly bothers me more than it probably should.

I think the key is training. If you seriously train... and often... with whatever pistol you carry, it doesn't matter. That also might require an instructor at first, to drill in the specific proceedure, and lots and lots of repetition. I would opine that most people who carry (not for profession) don't invest anywhere near the amount of time to have basic muscle memory for their SD firearm.

 

[UncleEd]

I now see the OP's point.

Sadly, in the past year or so a lot
of novice people have bought guns.
And they are not what might be
called "gun people."

So, they shoot a bit and then put
it away or maybe even start carrying
it. And no real training regimen has
occurred.

This is especially dangerous with the
autos. And I've seen in gun shops over
the years a lot of novices constantly
fumbling with the autos, barely or not
understanding the routines.

For a majority of new shooters, it would
be great if they only dealt with DA
revolvers and nothing else.

Truth is, even in the military the trainers
are constantly and ever on the alert
and nervous around their barely trained
people. This is especially true of
handgun training. Used to be firearms
in the military had triggers extremely
heavy as a safety measure.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

"Remembering" to operate a manual safety or decocker is a training issue. If one believes one will not remember to work the safety or decocker at the appropriate moment then one needs substantially more practice to instill it. It should be a conditioned response as opposed to a conscious decision.

 

[edwardware]

What good is taking down the threat if you forget to decock your gun, and end up shooting yourself or someone else?
. . .
Everyone says not to carry a SA because you have to remember to manipulate the safety before firing and after firing.

I think you need to find a different "everyone" to listen to.

SA pistols don't fire if you don't pull the trigger. Oddly enough, neither do DA or DASAs. There's no need to be shooting yourself by accident.

If you shoot yourself by accident, the solution wasn't to make the trigger pull heavier, it was to NOT PULL THE TRIGGER.

. . . this is like listening to your neighbor explain how he's worried he'll run a red light, so he duct taped a pool noodle under the gas pedal so it's harder to push down. . .

 

[Rexster]

A safety or other control can be bumped, knocked, snagged, or wiped to a different position. (Been there; had it happen, though with 1911 pistols, and the heel-clip magazine release on my P220, not the de-cock/safety lever on my previously-mentioned S&W 3913.) If one uses a DA/SA pistol, with a de-cocker lever that can be left in an off-safe position, it is a best practice to ensure the position of that lever, when preparing to shoot.

No need to believe me. Mas Ayoob wrote of a CA police officer, whose Beretta pistol’s de-cocker/safety lever was bumped to the on-safe position, during a struggle. When he managed to regain control of his pistol, he suddenly found himself being shot at, by his opponent, while the officer vainly pulled the dead trigger of his on-safe Beretta, while taking one or more fatal hits. IIRC, his pistol fell or was knocked from the officer’s grasp, rather than snatched, so, his opponent did not deliberately on-safe the officer’s weapon.

I was mindful of the CA incident, when I adopted the S&W 3913. Because I was already thoroughly accustomed to the 1911 safety, I adopted a “safety pointed at target” mindset, to cover both systems. It helped that I had never programmed my mind to “sweep” a 1911 safety lever “downward,” but to make contact with the safety lever, and then to align it with the enemy/opponent/target, as necessary. So, there was no conflict when I added the 3rd-generation S&W auto-pistol system, as I did not “automatically” sweep the safety/de-cock lever downward.

One may wonder why I did not keep using de-cocker DA/SA pistols. Well, I sold the SIG, because I did not like finding the magazine partially dropped. I resumed using .357 revolving pistols, for police duty, for a few years, then resumed using 1911 duty pistols. I acquired an S&W Model 3953, the DAO variant of the 3913, and sold the 3913 to a fellow LEO. So, nothing wrong with DA/SA; I just evolved away from them, some time in the mid-Nineties, until 2019. I would likely buy a really nice 3906, if one were to show up in the pre-owned selection at my local gun store.

 

[JR24]

Just because a DA/SA gun has a manual safety doesn't mean you should carry it with the safety engaged. Carry it just like your decocker only SIG with the hammer down with the safety off. The safety gives you options for administratively handling the gun.

Edit to add: The "backwards" lever on the Beretta (and Walther, and S&W, and Ruger, etc.) functionally operates in the same direction as the SIG decocker - down to decock.

Not sure I agree with this tactic. I've had enough safeties go "off" in a holster to ever trust one not to go "on", especially a slide mounted safety, during daily carry.

My philosophy is if it has a safety, train to disengage it every time just in case.

YMMV of course.

 

[golden]

KarateHottie93,


If you are someone who shoots "cocked & locked" all the time, carrying a single action pistol on safe makes sense, but is a bad idea for everyone else, in my opinion. To be safe, you MUST TAKE AN ADDITIONAL STEP to holster the gun, another extra step when you draw and fire the gun and then another step to re-holster it. Double action only and GLOCK style safe actions eliminate these steps and the risk of an unintended discharge. I have been around guns long enough to have witnessed several unintended discharges (two were done by firearms instructors on duty). I really like the SPRINGFIELD ARMORY XD9 series which has a GLOCK style safe trigger plus a grip safety.
You can still have an unintended discharge with a double action only, but the odds are reduced.

A lot of it comes down to training, but I like the KEEP IT SIMPLE RULE. I was a big 1911 supporter when younger, then found a better solution in the GLOCK safe trigger system. After going into law enforcement, I bought a SIG 226 to see if my qualification scores improved and they did, but the SIG was noticeably HEAVIER, especially at the end of a 10, 12 or 16 hour day. One time at the range, I re-holstered my SIG 226 without de-cocking. I realized it when I could not close the thumb snap on the holster. I carefully drew it out and dropped the hammer, thinking what an idiot I was. The next time at the qualification range, one of my coworker's did the same thing.

In your 6 out of 11 scenario, I think a DASA shooter would more likely sense something is wrong when they holster the gun with the hammer still cocked ( I know that I did). On the 1911 style autoes, your hammer would HAVE TO BE COCKED and would less likely tell the user the safety is not on.

For me, when I shoot a double action, single action pistol, I lower the hammer at each stage/distance that I shoot, so my first shot is a double action, followed by single action shots for the rest of that stage. I want to keep familiarity with that longer first shot.

A problem with having a safety/de-cocker is that you can leave the safety on without meaning too. I found my WALTHER PPK (my off duty carry gun) was on safe when I got home one night and took it out to put in the gun safe. That could have been bad if I needed it. Now, I prefer a GLOCK 42 without a manually operated safety.

My agency was still issuing revolvers when I joined, but allowed private purchase and carry of semi autos from an approved list.
When we finally switched to semi auto pistols, we went with the BERETTA 96D Brigadier model which was double action only and worked like a 12 shot revolver. It did not have a safety at all and had a long, revolver style double action trigger..
I came to think it was the best system. I still own several BERETTA D models and shoot them well.

One of its biggest advantages was some officers in our agency only fired their guns when they qualified, which does not make for good muscle memory. Since many people buying guns right now are in the same boat, making it simpler is better.


With a double action/single action, you still have two extra steps (no action needed when drawn and fired), so I prefer a de-cocker. I prefer the SIG style to that on my BERETTA G or WALTHER PPK.

Jim

 

[JTQ]

Not sure I agree with this tactic. I've had enough safeties go "off" in a holster to ever trust one not to go "on", especially a slide mounted safety, during daily carry.

My philosophy is if it has a safety, train to disengage it every time just in case.

YMMV of course.

We're all adults and you can do whatever you want, but from "Mr. Beretta 92", Ernest Langdon - beginning around the 2:05 mark

 

[Double Naught Spy]

My point is that people always say not to carry a single action because you have to remember to manipulate the safety under pressure.

It's the same with a decker though...at least after firing.

Not so. You don't have to remember to manipulate the decocker after firing. You just need to maintain your normal safety routine and not depress the trigger unintentionally.

The safety, on the other hand, does have to be disengaged before firing.

The people who don't "remember" to disengage the safety are people who are not familiar with the firearm in question. For me with a 1911, I no more have to remember to disengage the safety as I have to "remember" to pull the trigger. As noted above, there is no conscious thought involved in the action.

 

[FL-NC]

Back when my issue sidearm was a M9 (92F) the safety cause lots of problems. We carried our pistols with a round in the chamber, hammer down, on fire- meaning we only used the safety as a decocker anyway. So, yes, important to decock a M9 before you re-holster. But the biggest problem happened when clearing malfunctions mid-engagement (slap-rack-squeeze). Often times when the shooter racked/slingshot the slide, this hand would engage the safety and leave it in that position- which would leave him with what we called a "dead man's gun", in that he would end up trying to continue the engagement (firing) after accidentally activating the safety. Once the Glock became our issued sidearm, this problem (and others) went away.

 

[JR24]

We're all adults and you can do whatever you want, but from "Mr. Beretta 92", Ernest Langdon - beginning around the 2:05 mark

As you say, we can all do what we want, including Mr Beretta.

Me I like to reduce as many random chances as I can, and depending on something not bumping a slide mounted safety on during my daily life is a variable I don't want included in a CCW setup. It's why I don't do slide mounted safeties at all, though decocker only is fine by me.