How to legally stay alive,UK

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hso,

I fear that Fred Perrin's wallet would be illegal to carry in the UK as it is designed to be a weapon. Therefore it is an 'offensive weapon' and thus illegal to carry, though it is legal to own.
 
Sorry about the slightly provocative "you English" remark, no offense was intended, just an off the cuff thing.

Actually, I have been to London, what I said was MOST gun crime was drug related black on black, which it is. The TV show Ross Kemp on gangs London episode will confirm this. It's available on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Ross+Kemp+London+Special

That still leaves a lot of thugery that is not black on black, more a case of wrong place wrong time e.g "happy slapping" or interupting criminal acts. Being attacked by teenage gangs is definately a SD challenge, your odds of prevailing against multiple attackers are not good.
 
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For outside I'd say start with a good pair of steel toed boots in case you need to stomp or kick.

In an inside jacket pocket you could carry a pair of metal chopsticks, if you are ever questioned you could say you are on your way to a Chinese restaurant. Females could just do up their hair with them and likely draw no notice at all.

Carry a metal bodied yo-yo with high test fising line as the string. Yo-yo by day...thugwhacker by night.

A looong time ago on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson there was this little old man who based a whole system of self-defense around the use of a short wooden dowel. I believe he called it Defense-o and he did amazing things with that rod. I cannot find anything on it know but there might be a similar fighting style in other disciplines. The beauty of it is your main weapon is easy to dispose of if needed and does not look out of place rolling around in your car. New ones are easy to get and would fit easily in a jacket pocket.

For in the home, along with the shotgun you might go with a large bore airgun and maybe some black powder weapons. I don't know how controlled those are there though.
 
Here is some video demonstration of my two suggestions for public self defense in a non-permissive environment. Any kind of dedicated or marketed sap, be it wallet, glove or cap, would be considered an offensive weapon. i.e. illegal.

Mini Maglite

Defensive Cane
 
Listerine makes a duhicky called the Pocketmist. Its basically a thing of Listerine you shoot, kinda like bug spray, into your mouth. I hit a guy in the eyes with a blast once (at a school dance, as a dare, yeah I know it was stupid) aand it mde him cry. Much easier to explain than a can of bug/carb cleaning/whatever spray.
LPM_brandcontent.jpg

Also- cane, flashlight, umbrella, pocketknife? (don't know about legality) "Lucky Charm" (piece of heavy jewelry/metal on a lenth of cord[think rosary, necklace, etc] to use as flail), keys, pens (a good, thick fountain pen can do the trick) backpack, runnin weight, mandolin/ukelele/guitar/violin (whichever you can carry easiest, and only if you play it), large mobile, CD, iPod, laptop, magazine, book, briefcase, ruler, protractor, compass.
I've given a good deal of thought to self defense in school, you might be able to tell.
 
I suggest a maglite


or if you have more cash http://www.airsportdirect.com/acatalog/CP99Compact.html#a120
18 rounds of .177 pellets to the face will hurt
and then batter the git with a baseball bat
you won't get a shot gun cert for home defence or even if you mention home defence
you can't carry a weapon for self defence though if you cycle a 6 foot length of heavy chain with a heacy padlock at the end is allowed:evil:
 
Airsoft for self defense has been discussed here and in S&T before and discounted as a viable self defense option (we have many folks who are into Airsoft and who use Airsoft for FOF training {me included}). Fine for running the fuzzy tailed squirrels off the garden, not so good for goblins in the house.
 
there not airsoft
there metal pellets diffrent level of hurt
quite accurate shot in the face with it your going to hospital.
while he's bleeding you then batter him with the baseball bat :D
in the uk it illegal to own a handgun for self defense
you could own a black powder handgun but keeping it locked and loaded would put you in a world of hurt
 
woodybrighton,
I have read that the Brittish police were having quite a problem with posers carrying fake handguns and flashing them in pubs and clubs. I don't know what the penatlies are but I think that anyone would have ample justification for stomping someone into the ground if they pulled-out a fake gun.
We call these things BB-guns and while I have seen them penetrate deeply into soft skin, we used to have wars with them as kids wearing nothing more than T-shirts and hoodies.

In terms of using a CO2 fired BB gun for SD, I don't think that it would stop a determined or drunk person from attacking -and no one is going to stand there and let you empty 18 BBs in the face.

I would choose stick (cane) over a BB gun. I'd choose my belt & buckle over a BB gun.
 
most armed crime in the UK is actually carried out with replicas some are converted to fire live ammo police treat any one on the street in public with anything that looks gun like as live and have killed people :mad:
oh though I heard of one cretin who was arrested for robbing a shop "don't worry officer its a replica he actually had a real loaded handgun and did'nt know it :eek:"
a scary looking realistic air pistol might persuade somebody to back if not shoot them with then batter them a baseball bat:(
though the old martini henry rifle is legal to own and all the components to make bullets are legal as well
just putting them together would be very wrong but if your that parnoid even
charging zulu's got stopped by that
but thats very very illegal
 
rusty bubbles:

You have my sympathy over the rising crime in what has been one of the great cities in the Western world. It's not your fault, but let's see what you can legally do to protect yourself.

Any tool that multiplies force (hammer, large wrench -- spanner?, pry bar, etc.) can be used as a weapon. They are, of course, also of use in many households. We keep a small ball peen in the kitchen drawer, for example, to hang pictures and for other tasks (the hangers are in there, too). It would, however, be an extremely potent weapon, especially with the round part of the hammer head as the striking surface. Claw hammers with straight claws are quite vicious, too.

One of the meanest (yet invisible) weapons I've seen in a home is a large, square, heavy glass ashtray. You don't need to be a smoker: you're a good host and may have a guest who smokes (even if you ask them to carry the ashtray outside with them). Grab one corner and strike with one of the other corners. The heavy ashtray could do a lot of damage, yet it can sit on a table in plain sight. You could even throw it at an intruder. I'd put one in every room.

Oven cleaner and poison for killing wasps and hornets are both useful. The insect spray that we buy is a foam and has lengthy warnings on the can about eye damage. It can be sprayed several feet with fair accuracy. A faceful of that would be quite horrible, I imagine. We keep it around because the wasps have built nests on the side of our house. I've destroyed maybe a dozen nests in the past few months.

A light chair is a great weapon, if used with enthusiasm and aggression. Hold the back and jab fast and hard with the legs. Very difficult to block or avoid. If you're strong, you can throw it. Marc "Animal" MacYoung once observed that there's no good way to catch a chair.

I like a cane or a small flashlight in public. Look for yawara or kubotan information on the Web to find out how to use the light. The Mini MagLite was designed for this use. I'm fairly young (45) and healthy, but I've had injuries, and I carry a cane when out on foot. If my knee or ankle acts up, I'll need it to get home. I don't fake a limp, but I don't run or wave the cane around or anything. In the politically correct 21st century US, no one dares ask questions about a disability, but I'm ready to talk about my knee pain. A plain, sturdy, one-piece, crook-top cane is probably the least likely to cause suspicion.

Never forget books and metal clipboards. They can be used for both blocking and striking, yet no one seems to notice them. Not ideal, but a surprise shot to the face with the edge or corner of a book or clipboard would hurt!

Cups, mugs and bottles can also be used, as can full cans of food, soda or beer (though I'd hate to waste a good beer). The 8-ounce Coke cans that are sold here are fairly easy to throw. A few cans in the bottom of a heavy cloth shopping bag could be very effective.

It's all about momentum and striking surfaces, such as corners or edges. If you look around, almost anything is a weapon. I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Dirty Bob
 
You could just pose as a carpenter and carry an Estwing.

Best hammers out there, it seems.
 
Sec 1 of the Prevention of Crime Act makes it an offence to object designed, adapted or intended to cause injury without lawful authority or a reasonable excuse.

The Courts have decided that 'self defence' does not count as a reasonable excuse. If you carry ANYTHING and admit that it is being carried for self defence then the police will charge you.

Case law does allow you to arm yourself in response to an immediate and particular threat and claim a reasonable excuse defence however.

Lawful Authority has never been tested in the Courts and should include the authority granted by the 1688 Bill of Rights. The Police actually dont have any extra specific lawful authority to carry batons etc over and above the private citizen (I have that in writing from the Home Office)

Bottom line is that if you feel the need to arm yourself then you should do so because the law is not as restrictive as the Authorities would have you believe.
 
woodybrighton said:
most armed crime in the UK is actually carried out with replicas some are converted to fire live ammo

Really? I thought that was a myth. I haven't handled any of the replica firearms in question, but I was under the impression that it would be easier to construct a firearm from scratch than successfully convert one.
 
Louks,

I'm under the same impression you are. Perhaps "replica" has a different meaning here than there (...separated by a common language).


Woodybrighton,

Please define what you're referring to as a replica and how it is being converted to fire live ammo.

Just so you understand our skepticism, in the U.S. and Canada replicas can not be converted to fire live ammo. The working part of a firearm has to be built from scratch and housed in a replica to allow it to fire live ammo (and then it is a dangerous proposition for the idiot wielding it).
 
hso,

There is a very large myth surrounding the conversion of imitation firearms to fire live ammunition. Replica is a term commonly used to refer to what are essentially fake guns, but in law they are 'imitation firearms' and 'realistic imitation firearms' (depending on whether they look like a real gun or not as opposed to, say, a water pistol), as 'replica' could be construed to mean, say, an Uberti Colt Walker.

The most common thing converted to fire live ammo in the UK is the Brockock line of .22 airpistols. They can have their cylinders drilled out to take .22 rimfire cartridges but there are still a number of problems: the cylinder is not designed to handle the pressures of a rimfire cartridge and is prone to exploding, the barrel is smoothebore so you'll have a hard time hitting anything beyond 10 feet and the live cartridges are restricted to FAC holders so you would need to find an illegal source. In addition, airguns of this type (air cartridge systems) have recently been banned so you can't even legally get the gun to begin with. Of course, that doesn't stop criminals!

A lot of 'conversions' are also done on deactivated or blank firing guns. In these cases it involves entirely replacing the innards, including barrel. Only a gunsmith could do it but there's plenty of those in the criminal underworld. It does save time on building things like the reciever and trigger group though.

Blank firers are often made of plastic and so also prone to exploding when used with real ammunition. Out-the-front blank firers have been illegal in the UK for some time, so they must eject their gases out the side, making conversions even harder on legal guns. Again, illegal ones are easy to get.

Airsoft guns and conventional airguns though, it would genuinely be easier to build an entirely new gun than to convert them to live ammunition.

All realistic immitation firearms are now illegal to transfer in the UK, but there is an exemption for airsoft skirmishers, historical reenactment groups, performing arts groups etc. It would be pretty easy to become one of these for the purposes of buying one, or simply to acquire one illegally.

Airguns remain legal, as do deactivated firearms.

I wouldn't like to guess at what proportion of gun crime is done with ex-imitations. There is certainly a large amount of crime with honest-to-god firearms.
 
I wonder what percentage of crimes in the UK are committed with converted replicas that have to be converted by criminal gunsmiths when firearms and firearms components could be smuggled into the country by sea and tunnel by less skilled criminals.

I can see converting a black powder Uberti to fire cartridges, much like ball and cap revolvers were converted to cartridge guns in the 1800s in the US by blacksmiths all over the country as a practical exercise, but I don't get it as a criminal exercise when a cheap semiauto using 9mm should be dead easy to get from criminal channels.
 
I suspect one reason is the reduced risk. When importing guns illegaly there is a chance of getting caught (though to be honest I don't see hoe they would ever find a stripped handgun amongst a box of machine parts). When converting things in a workshop you don't have to worry so much. Another is that to import covertly requires foreign contacts. You cannot just mail order a gun from an American dealer, you will get caught. You would need someone to buy a gun outside the country, preferably illegally to avoid registration and so on, strip it down, box it up, and send it labelled as something else. It would require contacts and coordination and trust and so on. Anyone can start converting Brockocks in their garden shed and any gunsmith can start converting deacs.
 
Blimey! I had assumed this thread had run its course a couple days ago-and only logged on today by chance.
It's heart-warming ,the help and useful advice I've got from you guys-But what it always comes down to, is GUNS

. In the home-the police can not know what weapons you have, as a law abider, so you have a choice -shoot and be jailed, or roll over and die.

However, You CANNOT CARRY a firearm, the great equalizer, and deterrent
(In London, police at some subway stations do random checks for weapons)

Yet the most common danger. is outside the home, in the streets and in the subway, the parks- wherever muggers ,BGs or psycopaths see a chance to "start preying"- hence the dilemma I spoke of .

But reading the posts,I learn that I'm not alone in this, many US citizens are in the same boat it seems, in some states, and are just as defenceless on the street
I must stop being such a pain in the butt.

Thanks for all your help and advice though- it's nice to have friends!

Rusty B.
 
Fosbery said:
Umbrella, cane or walking stick (bludgeon and some umbrellas can be stabbed with)
Sturdy pen or torch (both as striking and piercing weapons but a bright, tactical torch can also temporarily blind and disorientate)
Carabiner (knuckle duster)
Bike lock (flail)
Briefcase (strike with corners)
Rolled up magazine (strike with an end)
Book (hardback, or softback if you put it under tension)
Keys (especially a bunch on a line used as a flail, or a car key with a plastic handle used to stab with)
Roll of coins (strike with)
Wallet full of coins (make sure the coins won't fall out and that they are only in one half of the wallet, it can then be used like a sap)
Cigar tube (strike with)
I would add a length of stout string, like some paracord...or a shoelace. Of course, you'd have to get behind your assailant to put it to good use. But it's a nice alternative to striking tools, especially if you're in an enclosed space (e.g., the backseat of a car).
 
rusty bubbles said:
However, You CANNOT CARRY a firearm, the great equalizer, and deterrent
(In London, police at some subway stations do random checks for weapons)
It's funny how so many otherwise educated people seem to be unable to grasp the (hardly subtle!) distinction between an illegally owned firearm in the hands of a criminal vs. a legally owned firearm in the hands of a law-abiding citizen.

rusty bubbles said:
But reading the posts,I learn that I'm not alone in this, many US citizens are in the same boat it seems, in some states, and are just as defenceless on the street
Sadly, you are correct. All my life I have lived in places where I have been barred from exercising my constitutionally protected right to carry a firearm: New Jersey, New York City, Boston, and the Washington D.C. area. It's no use having civil rights if you're not allowed to actually USE them!

However, I have always been allowed to at least carry chemical sprays and folding knives. But even then there have been restrictions! No knives over 2.5" in Boston, for example. Still, a 2.5" folder is better than bare hands.
 
Converted replicas could only be reasonably expected to withstand .22lr ammo, it is possible to convert the brocock replica revolver to .22lr. It's not very attractive to criminals though.

Re-activated guns are a far more viable option for gangs, a few years ago 2 black girls were gunned down in the UK by a re-activated MAC-10.

Live firearms are imported via the same channels as narcotics, often in the same shipment. Eastern Europe is awash with guns, cash strapped Serbian gun factories have produced sterile micro-uzi's for this very market.
 
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