How to throw a punch

[orangeninja]

Okay, I just read this on another thread and though this topic deserves "special" attention due to the fact that you are MUCH more likely to hit someone than shoot them.

"Someone please clarify something for me. What is the drawback to closed-fist stikes? Years ago, I took Tae-Kwon-Do for a while and they taught closed-fist strikes. It seems like that would deliver a more powerful blow.

Is the problem because you have a greater chance of injuring your hand?"

I have been taught the old school Roman-Greco style punch that most of us are familiar with, a balled up fist strike over hand.

Not too long ago though, I attended some refresher defensive tactics courses. Since my initial defensive tactics, I had learned some Muy Thai. Just enough to win a street fight and cuff someone, not enough to win a competition.

They were teaching the hammer fist, which is an overhand strike using the fleshy bottom of your fist as the strike surface. Now this is nice, but lacks 1 fundamental aspect of several Muy Thai strikes. So this is what I suggest you guys try out.

the heel strike. You all may be familiar with this. Many people have been taught that this is actually "deadly" force as it will send nose bone fragments into the brain. Actually, you WILL break the nose, or teeth, but it is highly unlikely you will kill anyone. When you strike, lock your elbow and hunch your back forward. I hit an instructor in the chest doing this and knocked him flat. Worked like a charm every time, EVEN WHEN HE KNEW IT WAS COMING!!!

Another was in using the elbow, this should be obvious but WHY it works is not. It is NOT because it is hard. It IS because it is an unmoving, non shock absorbing surface and as thus will transfer the most energy upon impact. Much like a heel strike. If you strike with the heel of your hand right where your wrist, arm and hand meet, you have the least amount of compression.

the good ol' fashioned slap, except slap with the heel of your hand. Now this will NOT have near the effect or power of a front heel strike or elbow, but since the heel of your hand is a dense bone mass, is more effective than a round house "hay maker" or closed fist punch.

Lastly the hammer strike. Same as the palm heel slap except over hand.

All of these blows carry tremendous force and will buy you a couple of seconds at least, in a real fight. Practicing these feels weird at first, but I think it would benefit anyone SERIOUS about self defense.

This should make for some interesting reading.

 

[pax]

Interesting. Thanks for putting it up.

Elbows -- I like elbows. Awhile back, a buddy and I were sparring in a class, slowly going through the motions. He moved just one little squidge too fast doing something that involved an elbow strike, and I turned right into it. Caught me on the cheek and put me out cold. It wasn't even that hard a blow, just caught a nerve center or something. Anyway, that's why I like elbows.

pax

If you're in a fight, and you aren't cheating, then you aren't taking the fight very seriously. If you're not taking the fight as a deathly serious matter, then the other guy is going to nail your scalp to the barn door. – LawDog on THR

 

[Josey]

First, avoid the entire fight. Use your mind, charisma or ninja skills to be somewhere else. Second, be sure you are right. If in doubt, run away. Third, WIN! I am one of those geezers that you have heard about. I am slow, arthritic and do not have the flexibility I used to have. I will use any available device to help me win. I really do consider a physical confrontation as a failure to reason. Anger is one letter short of danger. Think, talk, back off or win. A win is still a failure.

 

[Gabe]

For stabbing the eyes I use open palm with all fingers extended. Don't use the two finger stab, you'll miss. This is best done with the left hand or which ever hand you lead with.

For the throat I form a wedge with my fist, punching with the part used to knock doors. Lock your fist by bracing the first knuckle of your middle finger on the nail of your thumb.

For concussion to the nose land a punch on your two big knuckles in straight jabs and follow up with the elbow to neck, then a back hand with the big knuckles to the ear.

Now do these three things in order real fast, follow with a knee to the groin and run outta there.

 

[Soap]

For a very basic striking repetoire, I would suggest:

Chin Jab- Heel of hand moving upwards under a person's chin.

Tiger Claw- Fingers positioned like you're "palming" a medium sized ball. Fingers shoot to the eyes, heel should land somewhere near the chin. This is a straight shot.

Edge of Hand- Use the edge of your hand ideally towards the sides, back, or front of a person's neck. Make sure you keep your thumb trailing outward and your elbow bent which generates more power. Also can be used to break bones such as the collarbone or arms.

Cowcatcher- Term coined by Lee Aldridge of Reality Based Fighting Concepts. Basically you just shoot both arms outward with your hands close together to divert an attack (simultanously try to duck your head under the cover of your arms), you may even put a large hurt on someone with it.

Elbow- Moving inward, outward, upward and downward. Use either hand open or closed at your personal perference.

Knee- Shoot one to the groin or pull them down and bust their head.

Boot- Basically a kick with the foot inward or outward to the knee, ride the knee down to the small bones of the foot. Use it to bridge the gap to slam a chin jab on someone.

These are just a few things that were off the top of my head.

Punching can work very well in a fight, but it isn't as effective as some of the other strikes. It is also more difficult to learn to punch with authority than it is to learn how to bring your palm up into the person's chin. Whatever you do, learn to throw these in combinations and never rely on a single blow to do the job. The best place to see pictures of this stuff is on http://www.gutterfighting.org also, go through the archives at http://www.selfdefenseforums.com See the "Southnarc's PSPs" section for some photo outlines.

And always be skeptical of anything they tell you in an MA class. Most of it is pure BS.

 

[cordex]

"They say you should never hit a man with a closed fist, but it is, on occasion, hilarious."
-Malcom Reynolds, Firefly

 

[Trigger]

Straight punch right for the nose. Make sure you get the first punch in too. Break the nose, the agressors eyes water and they can see very little. Staight forward jabs are pretty hard to stop unless your really fast and can bob well. Oh, and don't stop throwing them until the agressor is down and out, or running. This usually take the fight out of most.

Best is to avoid it though. The above worked well for me.

 

[orangeninja]

"Anger is one letter short of danger."

It's hard to do but realize that the person you are fighting with either does not know you, or is incapable of reason at the moment. Don't take them personally and don't get mad. I know it sounds dumb, but they teach cops that "their" peace cannot be breached. Why? aside from the legal ramifications of a cop losing it, if you stay calm, you think clearly, if you think clearly, you're gonna win. Simple as that. A 260lb. man crazy with anger is dangerous, but not as dangerous as a 180lb. man who is able to measure you up calmly, while looking for gaps.


Gabe wrote:

"For stabbing the eyes I use open palm with all fingers extended. Don't use the two finger stab, you'll miss. This is best done with the left hand or which ever hand you lead with.

For the throat I form a wedge with my fist, punching with the part used to knock doors. Lock your fist by bracing the first knuckle of your middle finger on the nail of your thumb.

For concussion to the nose land a punch on your two big knuckles in straight jabs and follow up with the elbow to neck, then a back hand with the big knuckles to the ear.

Now do these three things in order real fast, follow with a knee to the groin and run outta there."


The only problems I see here tend to be that of precision. You are not going to be thinking about "Lock your fist by bracing the first knuckle of your middle finger on the nail of your thumb" or "punch on your two big knuckles in straight jabs" besides....what if you miss and crush your smaller knuckles?

The fights I have seen have all the grace of dog trying to swim, it can happen, but it's ugly to watch.


Try to use large strike surfaces, with dense bone mass, coupled with gross muscle movements. Placement of fingers, precision of blows, etc. is to fine of a movement to be effective over and over.

Next:

"punching can work very well in a fight, but it isn't as effective as some of the other strikes."

The above statement is true....however, I have yet to see a fight that has NOT gone to the ground. Usually kicks are too slow and the hand is ALWAYS quicker than the foot. Even if the hand is unskilled and the foot belongs to Chuck Norris. I remember watching a bar fight out back of where I worked. A small guy who had some "moves" was getting his ass handed to him by a fat guy whose only move was a jab. It was ugly, it was comical. The small guy obviously was in better shape, quicker and better trained, but he had no idea how to win a fight against someone who didn't fight just like him. Wasted talent.

Normally a fight will last fewer than 5 punches total, then 1 of 2 things will happen.

1.) Somebody goes down OR

2.) The fight goes to the ground, where all the grappling comes in to play.

SO....my point is....

A.) Use gross muscle movements that are on par with your natural instincts, "the easier it is to learn the more natural it is for you to use".

B.) Go with the most energy in the first blow, i.e. bone mass + velocity - shock absorbtion through compression = energy. (think elbow)

C.) Be prepared to go to the ground, DON'T BE ON BOTTOM!!! if you are, you're only escape is through the guy on top.

D.) Be prepared to punch first. That's right, I said it. If the fight is inevitable, and you know when it is, strike first. As most cops will tell you, don't hang around after the fact either. They're not going to waste a lot of time looking for a guy who punched another guy in a bar or someplace, there are a heck of a lot of more important things to do. But don't RUN from the cop's ethier. Just don't hang around the scene.

E.) Don't get mad, (especially if you are armed) it's nothing personal no matter how it seems or what he or she says. Be "professional" even if it isn't your job. Take a mindset like you do when you are at your job, you have a task to do, do it.

F.) Be prepared to get hit. It's gonna happen, it won't hurt nearly as much as you think it will, blow it off.

Lastly: Don't strike the throat or the eyes unless #1 you fear you are going to lose or #2 the assailant has some sort of greater physical advantage. Like size, strength a weapon or buddies. The reason I say so is that when you strike the throat or the eyes, sometimes even the groin, irreperable physical damage can occur, which opens you to huge lawsuits and jail time. I know that you "fight to win" and I know that you don't fight unless it is serious, but think clearly about it. For example:

I have been in a bar where a drunk guy thought I had followed him to the bathroom. (true story) Obviously this was not true, but he would not let me past the door of the bathroom without a fight, even so far as to push me away from the door.

#1....he's drunk, about my size, in a bad mood and unarmed. Do you think I should crush his retna? Nah, actually a simple elbow lock moved him away, along with a hard look. In a situation like that, there was no need for extreme hand to hand fighting, and if I had crippled the guy I would have been in it deep. There was a guy here that got 3 years prison for blinding another guy in a fight.

Now in the case of imminent danger, such as attempted rape, ambush assault, robbery, etc. Try to kill the guy with your hands....the key is, don't get mad, know whats going on.

I await the replies.

 

[Soap]

The above statement is true....however, I have yet to see a fight that has NOT gone to the ground. Usually kicks are too slow and the hand is ALWAYS quicker than the foot. Even if the hand is unskilled and the foot belongs to Chuck Norris. I remember watching a bar fight out back of where I worked. A small guy who had some "moves" was getting his ass handed to him by a fat guy whose only move was a jab. It was ugly, it was comical. The small guy obviously was in better shape, quicker and better trained, but he had no idea how to win a fight against someone who didn't fight just like him. Wasted talent.

That's the opposite of my experience concerning going to the ground. In my last two physical confrontations, neither has gone to the ground and each was decided quickly. You're right that most kicks are ineffective. It isn't because they're slow, it is because people try to throw them too high and expect results that they're not going to get. If you stomp someone's instep, or kick them in the head a few times when they're on the ground, a kick can be magic.

I would agree with most of your points except:

Lastly: Don't strike the throat or the eyes unless #1 you fear you are going to lose or #2 the assailant has some sort of greater physical advantage. Like size, strength a weapon or buddies. The reason I say so is that when you strike the throat or the eyes, sometimes even the groin, irreperable physical damage can occur, which opens you to huge lawsuits and jail time. I know that you "fight to win" and I know that you don't fight unless it is serious, but think clearly about it.

Why else would you get into a fight unless you absolutely had to? The bar situation you describe is not a fight, but a confrontation. Did you even try verbal judo before you put the guy in an arm lock? There have been many times I've been in the bar with that same type of situation (someone trying to be a hardass), verbal judo has solved all of them.

Also, this is terrible advice:

Try to kill the guy with your hands...

The key is to stop the guy. If you knock him out and then step on his grape until his IQ goes down by 100 points, then that is wrong. You always should fight to stop, with guns or with hands.

 

[Josey]

The physical confrontation is going to burn you. A assault charge is bad juju. The fact is, IF you get in a fight, you should treat it as a deadly force confrontation. It is not about being the victor, it is about being the survivor and there only being one side of the story. I explained this to an academy class in this manner. If a person is intent and cannot be averted from the physical confrontation, help them to become an organ donor. Their brain has already been donated.

 

[GigaBuist]

Going to the ground.

I've had a few minor altercations that required phsyical confrontation. They were all the result of some drunk having too much at a party (think 18-20 years old) and things getting out of hand. When required to step in and lay down some discpline, I could.

Basically, when dealing with a drunk (or two drunks), when somebody wants to take it to the ground that's where it's going. Now, if you're sober and the other guy is drunk, taking it to the ground is quite easy. Take one drunken blow to the head area, and if you get past that while going in for the legs/hips you've got 'em.

After 9+ years of wrestling, I can tell you this, it's human nature to try and hit the ground "belly first". If they hit back first they'll definately roll over before trying to stand up if your'e on top of them. Human nature (and a good idea). If you can accomplish getting them to the ground, and pull off the following you're pretty much good to go unless the other person is skilled in Judo or Wrestling.... or they're insanely bigger than you.

You're the man on top, they hit their belly and try and stand up. They WILL open up a gap for you here. When their torso leaves the ground you can snake a leg inside their body and wrap it around their leg. Your foot behind their knee. Do the same with the other leg now and keep your hips lower than theirs. Keep them too high and they can buck you off. While doing that rock both arms into their armpits, sinking your arms up to your own elbows -- your elbows should be under their triceps. If they're using them for stability wrench your arms up and remove that point of contact of theirs to the ground.

Flop. They're face down in the dirt.

Two options here. To hold 'em tight, Push your hips down, flex your legs, and lock your fingers behind their head and push foward. With the right balance they're going nowhere. I hear you can break somebody kneck with this (A Full Nelson) but I've certainly never seen it happen but there's probably a reason why it's illegal in competition wrestling. Once you're settled in, there's not much they can.

If you want to put them down quick with pain (and damage), snake the left arm around and put your hand on the back of the head an apply pressure. The right hand is then free to strike on the back of their head which will likely allow you smack their face into the ground or floor at will. If youre not strong enough to do that then just push down with both hands, release with the right one and their head snaps back up -- they'll loosen their muscles slightly when it comes upright -- hit it again HARD and it goes back down easy. Smack... nose/face into the ground.

While you're there you've also got a good place to choke them out. Keeping that left hand on the back of their head you can snake your right arm around thieir throat and lock it onto your forearm. Push down with the left and pull tight with the right and you'll cut off circulation to their brain. About 20-30 seconds of that done right and they should be out like a light. That is, unless they buck you off, but if you keep your balance, you should be fine.

Fun part is, with that position it doesn't really matter if they "roll" you over so you're on your back. You still have the advantage position (called a "Crab Ride") when sitting there. You control them even though you're on bottom -- unless they head butt your face and cause you to hit the ground. Not too hard to keep 2-3 foot clearance here though.

I've never seen a stand up fist fight last for long, not more than one or two punches. Then again, I hung out with a bunch of wrestlers -- so of course they'd take it to the ground ASAP and things would "get rodeo" from there as LawDog would say.

 

[El Tejon]

Lots of good stuff here.

No one has mentioned the uppercut? Fave of mine with a jab as lead in or after a pluck or hook and grab.

I like the slap, especially when coupled with an angle step to get close and then follow up with haymaker, et al. Footwork, footwork, footwork.

alduro, don't forget the footwork when you are throwing these strikes! Add body power to that heel/palm strike. In the right place, much pain.

However, strikes/punches are like bullets or medicine, they don't always work.

What always works, class? Anyone? Bueller? THAT'S RIGHT--AVOIDANCE!

 

[orangeninja]

"Also, this is terrible advice:


quote:
Try to kill the guy with your hands...


The key is to stop the guy. If you knock him out and then step on his grape until his IQ goes down by 100 points, then that is wrong. You always should fight to stop, with guns or with hands."


I concead....that was terrible advice. Never keep beating someone once they are out of the fight. Whats the point?

Secondly...yes verbal judo almost always works. ALMOST...being the key word. The elbow lock guy...yeah...he wasn't going to move and he said somthing about my neck and his ass...I don't know.

Lastly...El Tejon....I find that the foot placement should come naturally if you are indeed moving with your shoulders. When you start "thinking" about foot placement...thats when you trip over your own thumbs. haha.

 

[Ryder]

Define effective power?

Now in the case of imminent danger, such as attempted rape, ambush assault, robbery, etc. Try to kill the guy with your hands

I thought I understood what you were getting at here. You just have to do it in a single hit as an option to some other type of deadly force which you can't deploy for some reason? I would avoid getting physical over anything less. Fighting for fun isn't my idea of fun.

A closed fist punch sounds like a good way to find out what wearing a cast is like to me. The few times I tried that as a kid I invariably injured myself. Considering the greater forces involved now I'd be hurtin for certain. Besides, I think it's effectiveness is a bad gamble. I've yet to be knocked unconscious and have taken some pretty big hits. Ever work a lumber company? Ouch! Those boards just have no respect :banghead:

I believe the key to a disabling hit is in penetration. I'm not talking about ripping someone's heart out, just a single well placed hit to disable or dissuade someone. Look at the impact area of a fist, palm, or elbow you'll see a large blunt area. Felt force is relative to contact area. Toss 100 pounds of force on a 4 square inch "projectile" and you end up with 25 psi. That going to hurt who? Toss the same 100 pounds out there on a half square inch and the number registers 200 psi.

Just something for consideration. I'm sure y'all are happy with what you've got going for you already. This is just something I've trained at.

I've been practicing this technique using my middle knuckle (tighten your hand up like you are going to knock on a door) since 1980. Started out using 90 psi burst strength cardboard. I can double that now and still get through easy enough. Tears it up! I've never seen anyone get through even flimsy cardboard with a fist.

There's some really thick cardboards out there. Definitely some that I can't get through. I never felt in jeopardy of breaking any of my own bones but it does take some degree of desensitization, so if you're going to try this build up slow using light cardboard. Other than knuckle sensitivity you must be careful not to injure your wrist. You can get by swinging the arm a lot less using a little snap in your wrist as you make contact.

I'm pretty ignorant of MA. This action already has a name I suppose?

 

[Soap]

El Tejon- The chin jab is somewhat like an uppercut so I use it in place of an uppercut. The only time I would use a closed fist uppercut is to hit the midsection of a bent over BG. Otherwise I prefer the chin jab; if you miss with the chin jab your hand is already open and above the back of their neck and head. In this position one could then curl the hand around to the back of their neck to bring them down for some knee-to-face combat.

 

[GigaBuist]

I've never seen anyone get through even flimsy cardboard with a fist.

Huh? Mine's gone through a door! Not a very solid door... but tougher than cardboard.

 

[Soap]

Ryder- What target are you looking for with that strike? Also, I find it odd that you nearly broke your hand using a traditional fist but you don't break your fingers or hand with your technique.

 

[orangeninja]

"Huh? Mine's gone through a door! Not a very solid door... but tougher than cardboard."

Does dry wall count?

 

[PATH]

DO whatever is necessary to come out the winner. Gouge eyes, pull ear, bite, kick, punch, or do whatever is necessary to win. If opponent goes down try to get in kicks to the ribs as hard and as frequently as possible. Many times a fight is won by he who is most willing to do whatever it takes.
I am no tough guy but that is the way I see it.

Best advice though is to stay the hell away from confrontations by seeing them coming and removing yourself from the situation. What do you really have to prove?

 

[JohnBT]

I could have used some of this advice when I was younger.

I had back surgery in November for a crushed sciatic nerve - the one that runs from your spine to your toes. The surgeon spent almost 3 hours peeling it off the vertebra and trying to fluff it back up and I'm not going through that again if I can help it. I'm also 53 and wear glasses for extreme nearsightedness.

Can I just shoot 'em before they reach me?

John

 

[Bill Hook]

I admit I don't practice MA and avoidance is the best policy, but the elbows and heel stikes always seemed instinctive to me.

What I'd like to hear is how to take some blows with minimal damage, the best thing I can think of is to close the distance with your attacker so he can't achieve maximum mechanical advantage at the end of his blow and strikes with reduced effectiveness.

 

[orangeninja]

"What I'd like to hear is how to take some blows with minimal damage, the best thing I can think of is to close the distance with your attacker so he can't achieve maximum mechanical advantage at the end of his blow and strikes with reduced effectiveness."


Actually hold your hands up with elbows bent where your hands are head level like you are surrendering. When someone tries to hit you with their hands. Sheild your head with a bent elbow while lowering your face and shoving hard with your other hand. Even if you block with the wrong side the shove will push them into getting a glancing blow at best.

 

[Ryder]

Teens punch holes in hollow doors and drywall too. Can't say as how that is a good thing in my house.

Try holding a 12" square of cardboard with one hand and penetrating it with your fist. It is an impossibility. I just did it with an 8x10 sheet and blew it apart. Reassembling the pieces shows a square 1 inch hole in it's center. The move is dependant on focus and technique as opposed to strength. Penetrating force generates from a small surface area and speed not strength.

Potential targets? Depends on if you want to kill or just maim. How would such an impact feel on the back of your hand or wrist? Anyplace on your neck? Or just behind your temple? Hmmm, guess you wouldn't be feeling that last one (ever?). What target would you use a ball peen hammer against?

Daniel - What I described (or tried to) takes no more than arm movement to generate a large amount of force to a single point. Picture pounding a nail in with a hammer. The motion is similar with a snap of the wrist at impact.

It can cause wrist pain with poor technique on impenetrable objects. Desensitization of the knuckle just happens over time. Figure a month or so depending on how much you practice. At the time I began doing this my job was on a fast moving assembly line. Cardboard was being used to separate several layers of parts in a box and lifting that out was difficult since it was cut to the dimensions of the box. It didn't take long until I didn't feel a thing even when I occasionally hit an underlying part made of metal.

 

[Soap]

Ryder- To each his own. It seems like you've trained with it and it provides a solution to an SD problem. I personally wouldn't use it since I have other responses already in place.

 

[farranger]

Gigabuist; I know what you're talking about with wrestling moves. A switch or standing switch on a non wrestler or even a wrestler who does not know you're an ex wrestler is funny. They were on top of you and all of a sudden they are stupidly wondering how you could be on top of them. It's good, but funny.