Hypothetical: What would you carry, concealed?

[Kleanbore]

Suppose you live out in a suburban neighborhood out next to a rural-ish area. You're out walking your dog, and you hear the sound of a vicious dog. You look around, and here he comes, charging out a long driveway, the last thing you wanted.

But you're prepared. Frankly you've planned for this situation. You know that you'd never hit that XL Bully with a bullet, so you're carrying a CONCEALED revolver loaded with... One or another shot loads. Which one, and why? (Or other. No long guns.)

Consider a couple or three things:

• A German Shepherd can run at a speed that is three times the speed of a charging human attacker. That means that if the defender detects the threat and decides to draw them the dog is twenty feet away, he will have one-half second to draw, get on target, and shoot.
• Those shot revolvers have a ridiculously small pattern within their short effective ranges, and would not be require much less in the way of aiming than a handgun load with bullets.
• Shooting a pistol in such circumstances would be extremely risky. The defender would have no time in which to exercise due care and circumspection, and hitting anyone down range would most likely bring serious charges of negligence.

No, my pistol would remain in its holster, concealed.

I recommend a cane and of repellent or a shock baton and dog repellent kept in hand.

 

[WestKentucky]

I personally have seen what happens to an angry dog at 7 yards with a 20ga loaded with #4 turkey loads. Considering the options listed, the best thing to be carrying comcealed is a whooping stick or a nice pair of running shoes. The only thing that comes close is that 410 judge but it had better be stoked with buckshot.

The reality is that any of the revolver shot loads are totally ineffective at range, and if close enough to be effective you might as well shoot a bullet with enough mass to penetrate because little light shot pellets don’t.

 

[Anchorite]

I voted “other,” because your choices, frankly, suck. I live in exactly the same scenario…. suburban, bordering on rural.

I often walk my dogs and carry a golf club. For a charging dog, there are better choices, IMO, than a handgun. Of course, YMMV.

 

[bdickens]

Stupid, ridiculous choices.
Pepper spray and a big fat walking stick would be the right tools for the job.

 

[CDW4ME]

I'd rather have a Sig 365 or Glock 19 in hand than the revolver options in poll.
11 or 16 rounds instead of 5-6
The attacker(s) may be human just as easily as canine and I like having more ammo at my disposal than less.

 

[unclenunzie]

It was very, very fast.

Oh yes. Until a person actually experiences this it's hard to image just how blindingly fast dogs can be, even fat dogs you think are slow. Faster than you can see, someone, dog or human, can be bleeding in an instant. In the spirit of this thread I would choose other, I will not endanger my dog(s) with gunfire during such a scenario. Thankfully I have fully fenced acres enough to allow them to run free every day, good for their bodies, minds, spirits. Where I walked my dogs in years past, where legal I carried my usual carry. I never had a problem with free-roaming aggressive dogs but I think the spray alternatives and the walking stick or cane are sensible ideas.

Around here dogs do get free to roam occasionally due to owners not really caring much, but the dogs themselves respond to a firm order to go home, no harm done. I actually grieve for the dogs who I know eventually will get hit by a car.

 

[Kleanbore]

I'd rather have a Sig 365 or Glock 19 in hand than the revolver options in poll.
11 or 16 rounds instead of 5-6
The attacker(s) may be human just as easily as canine and I like having more ammo at my disposal than less.

If it's a dog situation and one wanted to use a gun, it had better be in hand--but it is not likely that with a fast moving vicious dog to deal with, one would be able to exercise sufficient due care and circumspection in a suburban setting, and the risk of harming or killing someone and facing manslaughter charges would be significant.

In a human SD situation, one does not want to have gun in hand until and unless the person has placed the carrier in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm--ability, opportunity, and jeopardy.

 

[shafter]

First of all I wouldn't depend on any shot loads to stop a dog. I want a real bullet.

Secondly there's no emptying a 15 round magazine into a charging dog. They move too quick.

Thirdly dogs charge at people all the time before stopping a short distance away to bark. If I shot every dog that charged at me there would be a lot of dead dogs out there.

The challenge is that you have a small fast moving target to begin with and by the time I'd feel justified in shooting the dog it would be close enough where realistically I'd only get a shot or two.

 

[Scrapiron45]

OC spray and you better keep it in hand because a dedicated attack is not going to be proceeded by a warning bark and both dogs are going to be involved quickly, probably within a couple seconds.
You should be prepared for a fight with the owner if you shoot their dog or at the least a lawsuit and time in court.
A pistol would be one of the last weapons I'd want in play in a close quarters dog fight.

 

[Old Dog]

If I walked anywhere that was a remote possibility I'd walk with a hiking stick and use the stick as a defensive weapon even if I were also carrying a gun for 2 legged threats. Georgia is pretty gun friendly but even here it would be hard to justify shooting a dog.

This is an interesting proposition, and one that in which I have an actual experience.

I have a very old hickory walking stick that I've used often when walking one of my older (calmer) dogs. A couple years ago, we were charged by a large pit-mix, came out of a long driveway with a full head of steam, teeth bared, frothing at the mouth and very aggressively barking. I put the staff out in front of us (tip on the gravel shoulder, angled) while my old girl quivered in fear (she doesn't have an aggressive bone in her body). The aggressor dog litterally leapt at my stick, got the lower third in a death grip in his jaws and battled me for possession of it (he was winning). All while I was trying to maintain a two-hand grip on it while the lead's loop was in my left hand. I was struggling, and very ready to drop my stick and draw my SIG P-227 (11 rounds of Golden Saber 230 gr JHPs) when a woman came running down the drive (about thirty yards from garage to roadway) toward the road yelling, screaming and amazingly, accusing me of attacking her dog.

She stupidly came up behind her dog, attempted to grab his collar, he turned on her, snapped at her and almost bit her hand. Her teen son appeared on the scene with a leash, got the dog under control and dragged him off while he was still in a frenzy trying to slip his collar and charge back at us. Accusations from both sides ensued (I was furious that she didn't have the huge (very expensive-looking and ornate) wrought-iron gate on her driveway closed, she accused me of striking her dog. I casually moved the right side of my jacket back to reveal my badge clipped on my belt in front of my OWB Kramer holster... pulled my phone out of weakside jacket pocket and offered to call the sheriff's office watch commander if she cared to discuss things.

Apologies were then offered and accepted on both sides; she admitted she'd forgotten to shut her gate after she and her son returned home and she turned out to be a nice person (didn't hurt that she was extremely attractive), we had a good conversation about raising puppies, especially those from the more assertive large breed dogs, as well as the importance of socializing dogs at a young age with other dogs.

Until a person actually experiences this it's hard to image just how blindingly fast dogs can be, even fat dogs you think are slow.

This, and the fact that I was rather day-dreaming and enjoying an uncharacteristic sunny winter day, low situational awareness -- didn't have time to even set myself for an attack, even though the dog involved always barked aggressively at us from inside his fenced yard when we walked by (like an inmate chipping at the CO's from his door after getting celled in for lockdown).

Anyway, my point is, I wasn't even prepared to deploy my hefty stick (and I have well over thirty years of training with straight batons, collapsible batons, side-handle batons like the PR-24, riot batons but never training on how best to deploy a stick against a dog). So I learned that a large stick will only piss a really strong, aggressive dog off, and he will fight you for it.

I cannot see any reason to ever use shot-shells from a handgun against a dog. #4 shot? I can't see that being effective at all, even with a head shot.

OC? Good luck with that. Maybe if you have a few seconds of warning, but that dog will be on you before you know it, so you better have a fogger, not solid stream, and hope the wind's not blowing toward you. If you carry OC for any purpose, you absolutely must have practiced with the variety of canister sizes, propellants, activation methods, ranges, etc.

Thankfully I have fully fenced acres enough to allow them to run free every day, good for their bodies, minds, spirits.

This is the ticket. I still walk my dogs down my rural road though, mostly for my exercise to be honest, and meet all the folks who live on my dead-end road and walk their dogs too.

 

[Pat Riot]

Back in 1990 one of my neighbors was a Long Beach, CA police officer.
One morning I was getting home from night shift and he was headed to work. He was in uniform and wearing his Sam Brown rig. I had seen him numerous times headed to or coming from work. This time something was different. He was carrying a S&W revolver. I commented that I thought LBPD had switched to semiautos. He said they had but he told me about the day before when a fine upstanding citizen let loose a pit bull on him. He said he shot at dog right in the forehead with his 9mm and the bullet gouged a path of 2-3 inches up the dogs head before heading off elsewhere. He said the dog stopped, shook its head then started towards him again. His partner hit the dog with Mace pepper spray and the dog yelped and ran back into the house it came from.
He said if that happened again he wanted a .357 magnum on his hip. He said the department still allowed officers to carry revolvers if they chose to.

I often think about this when I see or hear people talking about arming themselves for dogs. I often wonder what would have happened had my neighbor’s partner not sprayed that pitty.

 

[DT Guy]

I was an OC instructor, baton instructor, knife/counterknife instructor....if a big, BAD dog has fully committed to attacking me (and if I'm walking my dog and another dog attacks US, I'm now under attack) the gun's coming out and there's going to be a loud, shouted warning (if time allows); that's worked for two dog attacks so far.

I really believe a dog can sense when you're prepared to kill it; tone of voice, stance, whatever.

OC is great-if it works. A stick is great-if you can Ninja it around quickly enough, you're fit enough and you have room to maneuver. I've survived three knife attacks, but a knife fight with a really vicious dog would be bloody and dangerous. However neatly you picture cleanly slicing it's throat, it won't be like that in real life. Unfortunately, the end game with some dogs is someone is going to get killed, because that's just how some dogs are. You can/should have intermediary options, but should always have a plan for if/when those options fail. A well-trained dog, or one with serious issues, will fight to the death.

(For the record, I'm a huge dog person; love'em to death. And I agree it's generally the owner who's caused the problem. All that said, my dog and I aren't getting chewed on because of someone else's failure, sad as it might make me.)

Larry

 

[Kleanbore]

.if a big, BAD dog has fully committed to attacking me (and if I'm walking my dog and another dog attacks US, I'm now under attack) the gun's coming out and...

I can see that if the dog is threatening, but if it attacks, I would not expect anyone to be able to decide to draw, draw, get on target, and fire timely. Many people have a lot of difficulty doing that in a Tueller drill, with a human attacker moving at one third th speed of a dog.

OC is great-if it works.

With a dog's extremely sensitive olfactory sense, OC should be much more Riley to work than it is against humans--if the defender can deploy it.

A stick is great-if you can Ninja it around quickly enough,

Yep. But I have seen demos of Air Police canines taking down armed attackers every time.

Just over fifty years ago, I witnessed a German Shepherd viciously attacking a Cocker Spaniel. A neighbor of mine intervened and saved the smlaller dog. His weapon was...a toilet plunger. he wielded it like a rapier in a swashbuckler movie.

 

[DT Guy]

I can see that if the dog is threatening, but if it attacks, I would not expect anyone to be able to decide to draw, draw, get on target, and fire timely. Many people have a lot of difficulty doing that in a Tueller drill, with a human attacker moving at one third th speed of a dog.


With a dog's extremely sensitive olfactory sense, OC should be much more Riley to work than it is against humans--if the defender can deploy it.

Yep. But I have seen demos of Air Police canines taking down armed attackers every time.

Just over fifty years ago, I witnessed a German Shepherd viciously attacking a Cocker Spaniel. A neighbor of mine intervened and saved the smlaller dog. His weapon was...a toilet plunger. he wielded it like a rapier in a swashbuckler movie.

Getting the weapon out in time requires situational awareness and practice; I've done it both times I needed to, and had the gun on target before he 'engaged' us. No guarantee I'll be able to do it every time.

OC *should* work great, unless it doesn't. It deters dogs most of the time, but even the OC instruction warns you that if you spray a dog that's already bitten, it will likely 'lock' him on to whatever he's bitten. I've sprayed a couple hundred people, both 'live' and in training; it works great often, but has yet to stop anyone determined to continue their attack. It's never the end-game plan in any cogent use-of-force model.

Trained dogs are dangerous-no doubt. That's not an argument against preparing to cope with them properly.

I can't carry a toilet plunger-restrictive state. I have to settle for a firearm.

Larry

 

[driz]

I carried OC on the job but never really had a chance to use it. I did enough training with it though to know that it’s very hard to hit anybody or anything in the eyes with that stuff unless you’re pretty well trained with it. Most people think it comes out like a blast but it’s really more of a squirt gun you can see from That image how hard it can be . That’s why I say bear spray. It’s a little bigger and a little heavier but he gives you that range that you want dealing with either humans or Bowser.. The only downside of bear spray is that it may get a little bit on you or anyone else with you. That’s not nearly the big deal people make it out to be and it’s well worth the small chance to be able to blast somebody from 20 feet away and anctually plaster them especially Bowser at high speeds. Personally, I just find that using those little sprayers isn’t the sort of thing you wanna learn on the job And actually hit the face and eyes. It really is a lot harder than you think it is.. You are

 

[Kleanbore]

. I've sprayed a couple hundred people, both 'live' and in training; it works great often, but has yet to stop anyone determined to continue their attack. It's never the end-game plan in any cogent use-of-force model.

People are not dogs.

For defense against humans, it's a good idea to carry OC, because so many criminal encounters do not rise to a level that would justify dead force. But it is important to understand that it may not work,

 

[Kleanbore]

I carried OC on the job but never really had a chance to use it. I did enough training with it though to know that it’s very hard to hit anybody or anything in the eyes with that stuff unless you’re pretty well trained with it. Most people think it comes out like a blast but it’s really more of a squirt gun you can see from That image how hard it can be . That’s why I say bear spray. It’s a little bigger and a little heavier but he gives you that range that you want dealing with either humans or Bowser.. The only downside of bear spray is that it may get a little bit on you or anyone else with you. That’s not nearly the big deal people make it out to be and it’s well worth the small chance to be able to blast somebody from 20 feet away and anctually plaster them especially Bowser at high speeds. Personally, I just find that using those little sprayers isn’t the sort of thing you wanna learn on the job And actually hit the face and eyes. It really is a lot harder than you think it is.

Good put!

One other thing--the pepper in bear spray is much lower in concentration than that in OC spray desinged for defense against humans. the animal is more sensitive to it.

 

[wayneinFL]

This always goes with me when I walk my dog.

I keep several cans around the house. I bought it for black bears but discovered later the much more likely threat is dogs off-lease.
Most of these dogs belong to somebody and I like dogs but they can be dangerous when unsupervised and off-lease wandering around.

Where I walk there has been black bears but there's also houses relatively close by and sometimes their pets escape the yards. I carry concealed but I don't want to be the guy who shoots the neighbors dog even if the dog is being a jack wagon.

That spray has a good 30 foot range. I carry it on bike rides also, out in the open. Folks sometimes think it's a water bottle and others think it's a little fire extinguisher.

That's not a bad idea. Now that it's warming up I'm going to start jogging again. Last year, I ran across a panther on my favorite path. I'd rather spray an endangered panther than shoot one.

 

[Rival]

Three things:

1. I live in SoCal and I legally carry
2. On trail I do occasionally carry 3” Python
3. The scenario you described happened to me. Big aggressive dog got off leash and went after my miniature schnauzer. Using deadly force to protect personal property (including pets) is not legally justified, so if I pulled firearm or knife on that dog, I am pretty sure I would have been in a world of legal trouble and expense. What I did, I went after hostile dog, hugging it tight and both of us on the ground. It did not bite me, as it was still trying to go after my dog. It worked out without using any weapons.

 

[bearcreek]

One other thing--the pepper in bear spray is much lower in concentration than that in OC spray desinged for defense against humans. the animal is more sensitive to it.

This is incorrect. Bear spray has a higher concentration of OC than pepper spray designed for defense against humans.

 

[HowardC]

Well, I admit I was lucky, twice....

We used to have a big open field, about 5 acres, next to our house and I'd occasionally take my boy's golf club out and hit a few, trying to appreciate the game..,., (never did...)

There was a farmhouse adjacent to this field, the occupants of which kept rather nasty dogs. (human projection??). First time, it was a white pit bull type and the second time one of a pair of Dobermans he kept for a while. At about 20 or so feet, I began beating the ground with the golf club and yelling at the dog. Both times, the dog would stop, keep barking for a couple times, and I'd keep advancing towards the dog. The dog would start retreating and the Doberman ran back towards the farmhouse. The white pit bull stood his ground for a little longer, till I was beating the ground right in front of his nose. About that time, the owner started across the field, yelling, I couldn't tell whom at, and the dog ran off. We had words and that ended the incident. I never saw the dogs out or loose again. But, I'd say a 5 iron, or such would be pretty devastating to be hit with.

The Dobermans would 'get out', and roam the neighborhood occasionally, challenging walkers and people in their yards. Several complaints were lodged by various residents. Something must have gone down, because after that, there were no more Dobermans.

So much for life in the suburbs....

-West out

 

[Kleanbore]

This is incorrect. Bear spray has a higher concentration of OC than pepper spray designed for defense against humans.

Data to support that?

 

[.38 Special]

Around here dogs do get free to roam occasionally due to owners not really caring much, but the dogs themselves respond to a firm order to go home, no harm done.

This, in my experience, is very good advice. I do a lot of running, and encounter many, many poorly-controlled dogs. I've been bitten several times, have pepper sprayed about half-a-dozen, and was just about ready to wrap myself in razor wire, when I first came across something similar to your suggestion. Now I find that standing up big and, in a "command voice", shouting "No! Bad dog! Go home!" works almost miraculously well. It's not a fail-safe, but I no longer have to buy pepper spray by the carton, and have not been bitten since.

 

[.38 Special]

Oh, and a note about pepper spray - so far, it has been effective on every dog I've used it on. They yelp and run. I'm sure that's not universal, but so far so good.

In just about every case, though, the owners got pretty mad about it, and in two of those cases I honestly thought that I was going to have to defend myself against them. So maybe you'll still want your gun, even if not for the dogs...

 

[bearcreek]

Data to support that?

Bear Spray vs Pepper Spray: Self-Defense Guide 2024

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persurvive.com

Bear Spray vs. Pepper Spray: Which Is The Best For Self Defense?

Pepper spray is an excellent self-defense weapon. It’s light, compact, easy to use, and highly effective. Despite those benefits, statistics suggest that more people are using bear spray instead of pepper spray for self-defense. Last

www.primalsurvivor.net

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/wellness/bear-spray-pepper-riot-dangerous/2021/03/19/053c3870-87fb-11eb-bfdf-4d36dab83a6d_story.html

Pepper Spray vs. Bear Spray (Which is Better?)

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wildernesstimes.com

What's the difference between bear spray and pepper spray? - BearWise

There are several differences between bear spray and pepper spray: You can expect bear spray to shoot farther than regular pepper spray and cover a wider area. Most bear sprays shoot 20 to 30 feet in range. Bear spray is more highly regulated by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to...

bearwise.org

Bear Spray vs Pepper Spray: Which is Better? - Beyond The Tent

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www.beyondthetent.com

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gearjunkie.com

Bear Spray vs Pepper Spray: Which Is More Effective? - Hikers Daily

Learn the difference between pepper spray and bear spray when it comes to bear self-defense.

hikersdaily.com

https://www.sabrered.com/bear-spray-vs-pepper-spray/ (this one is a manufacturer of both pepper spray and bear spray)

Bear Spray Vs Pepper Spray: Understanding Their Differences - Pepper Spray Mum

When it comes to personal safety, two commonly used self-defense products are bear spray and pepper spray.

pepperspraymum.com

Pepper Spray vs Bear Spray: Know the Differences Before You Buy - AlwaysReadyHQ

Pepper spray and bear spray both contain oleoresin capsicum but differ in potency, range, and purpose; pepper spray for self-defense, bear spray for deterring bears.

www.alwaysreadyhq.com

I've spent a fair amount of time researching this subject, as a live, work and recreate in grizzly, black bear, mountain lion and wolf country.