Concealed Carry Considerations

[Byrd666]

Frank PTMCCAIN etc.

Point one (1) is very true. I think I should have added the distinction of, the very real possibility of killing (my) assailant in a self defense situation. And being able to accept that fact within the act of self defense.

What I'm trying to say is, while I am trying to end "the situation" without bloodshed of any sort, or of even needing to draw and or fire my weapon, that if, in fact, it does come to that, I will do whatever is necessary to defend me and mine within the legal confines imposed. And not saying I will use all 18 rounds available in my pistol either. If one round is all it takes, then I've done what was needed. Or even nothing fired is always best.

Just saying that a fired bullet has no malice or prejudice or thought, but, the guy/girl behind the bullet better know of, and is, willing to accept, all possibilities when that round is discharged. Including the possibility of loss of life. Whether that be instant, or by trauma of some sort.

 

[Frank Ettin]

There seems to be a desire to make this all more complicated than it really needs to be.

I consider the issue to be straightforward:

• If I am forced by the actions of another to use lethal force against him to protect myself or an innocent third party from immediate, reasonably likely death or grave bodily injury, my intention is to stop him from causing that harm to me or another innocent.
  
  
• But I must understand that effective use of lethal force to stop an assailant might very well result in his death.
  
  
• I need to be able to accept that my appropriate actions in self defense or the defense of another might well result in the death of the assailant. If I can not accept the possibility of my intentional act causing the death of another human, I should probably reconsider keeping a gun for self defense.
  
  
• But killing the assailant is not my intent. It is, rather, a possible and foreseeable outcome, which I must understand and accept.

 

[Hunter125]

Have you/do you drink alcohol with car keys in your pocket?

Actually, no, I don't. If I have a drink - even one - while out, my keys go to my wife for exactly the same reasons as I stated above. I also don't ever drink more than one drink at a time, so maybe I'm crazy, but I'm simply not willing to chance my judgments being called into question, or worse, hurting someone because I was impaired even a little.
Why not just order a coke when CCW and avoid the whole mess?
If I drink, I typically do it at home, still only one at a time. I see no appeal in being drunk or not being in control of myself.

 

[Byrd666]

Frank

Pretty much "it"

 

[justice06rr]

There are some good points but also some parts that need refining. I agree that alcohol consumption is based on a personal level/comfort and also on the laws of your state.

For what it's worth, I don't carry in public wearing flip-flops, either. If I EVER find myself in a life-and-death situation again, I'll need every advantage I can get... wearing shoes I can't flee OR fight well in is ALSO an unnecessary impairment. If someone else decides to make hard trouble, why make things harder?

This one I find kinda funny. What one wears as a garment is a personal choice based on the situation as long as you are obeying the law. I'm not sure if you meant the flip-flops as a joke, but I have carried on the beach in flip-flops and even barefoot. Why should the type of footwear deter me from carrying? They say you should carry all time time where its legally possible. Of course in general I wear shoes when I go out, but not always.

I understand your point, but also consider many women who carry and also wear flipflops or sandals on a daily basis. Is that a no-no? In actuality that firearm may be their saving grace if they cannot run away from the aggessor.

 

[PTMCCAIN]

Surprising how many people actually are trying so hard to defend drinking and carrying a firearm.

Doesn't make any sense to me, but...hey...if you think it is wise, you pays your money and you takes your chances.

 

[Al Thompson]

Flip it around the other way, perhaps it will make more sense.

How many drinks does it take for me to lose the right of self defense?

 

[PTMCCAIN]

How many drinks does it take for me to lose the right of self defense?

Wrong question.

Here's the real question:

How many drinks does it take for me to lose the right to carry a firearm?

Check your state's laws.

 

[Texan Scott]

justice06rr: What one wears as a garment is a personal choice based on the situation as long as you are obeying the law. I'm not sure if you meant the flip-flops as a joke,

Yes, Justice... funny, with a point. And, I think you got it. Flip-flops and alcohol consumption are personal choices based on th situation, so long as we're obeying the law. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's a good idea. Just because I think it's a bad idea doesn't necessarily mean it should be illegal, or that somebody else is bad or stupid for doing what I choose not to. Know what's legal, decide for yourself what's wise, know that there may be a difference between the two, and be sure you can live with that. This is what responsible, law-abiding citizens do, and treat one another with mutual respect, courtesy, and caution on that basis.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Surprising how many people actually are trying so hard to defend drinking and carrying a firearm.

Doesn't make any sense to me, but...hey...if you think it is wise, you pays your money and you takes your chances.

I'm not strongly defending drinking and carrying a firearm. What I am saying is quit preaching to us and telling us what we should or should not do or how we should or should not carry our firearms.

There are thousands, if not millions of people who will routinely open carry their firearms while having a beer with dinner. We are enjoying life, not allowing our life choices to revolve around the possibility of a bad guy attacking us, forcing us to use our gun for self defense. I take reasonable precautions to protect myself and my family without adjusting every facet of my life because of the object on my belt, which just happens to be a gun.

Making a statement such as "if you choose to drink while armed, it might be worth evaluating both the factor of impairment due to the alcohol and the ramifications of being under the influence, even the legal influence, upon the defense of your actions" is like saying "you might want to have a fire extinguisher in your house in case of a fire".

Your statement of "You don’t – ever – drink while armed" is like saying "you MUST install an automatic sprinkler system in your house with fire department notification capability" just because I think that you should.

What I take exception to is the fact that you appear to feel qualified to tell me exactly what is the best way for me to carry my gun and to behave while carrying my gun. You might gain a few more readers willing to more thoughtfully consider what you have to say if you aren't on a soapbox declaring what everyone else should or should not do.

 

[Al Thompson]

As far as the footgear is concerned, agree completely. The reports from 9/11 survivors are fairly consistent that shoddy footgear (sandals and slippers) slowed evacuation down.

How many drinks does it take for me to lose the right to carry a firearm?

Check your state's laws.

In the house or out of the house? I am very familiar with the state laws.

Guess what? Other than the provision that (allegedly) applies to CWP holders, there are none for the carry of firearms in the vehicle or more importantly, the home.

And I would completely agree with you that a sober defense beats a boozed up one.

 

[xXxplosive]

Alcohol and Guns................?
Haven't you fellas seen any westerns....? What would "Gunsmoke" have been without Miss Kitty and the Longbrance Saloon.....every one was armed in there.

Just kidden of course.........IMO.....alcohol and guns don't mix.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Surprising how many people actually are trying so hard to defend drinking and carrying a firearm.

I don't see anyone trying to defend drinking while carrying. What I see are reasonable people asserting that a beer or glass of whine with dinner while carrying a firearm is not wreckless, just as it is fine to do so and then drive home. I don't think anyone here believes it is OK to carry while getting hammered at the local tavern.

Laws recognize that a small amount of alcohol does not impair a person, which is why there is a limit for driving, not a strict "do not drive if you have consumed any alcohol" statute.

In some states it's illegal, in others (like here in CO), the guidlines are the same as they are for DWAI/DUI. Having my weapon will not stop me from drinking a beer, maybe two, with dinner. But if I were going to the bar to drink more than a couple (which I don't anyway), I wouldn't carry.

 

[PTMCCAIN]

Somebody please tell LCDR that this conversation is about CONCEALED CARRY. He is having a hard time getting that point, here, and in several other places.

 

[beatledog7]

Some states do indeed draw a line between having a beer with one's pizza and exercising one's RKBA. Others don't.

I know that many CCW holders can have a beer with their pizza or a glass of wine with their dinner and still make consistently sound decisions regarding the use or non-use of a defensive handgun.

I also know that there are plenty of people whom I wouldn't trust to make a sound defensive handgun decision while they're stone sober.

Which of the two would you rather have in a position to defend someone you love?

 

[JagerRanger]

How many drinks does it take for me to lose the right of self defense?

Wrong question.

Here's the real question:

How many drinks does it take for me to lose the right to carry a firearm?

Check your state's laws.


I think the question was perfect. Why wouldn't a person that has consumed a few beers be allowed to defend his/her life anymore? (I don't drink at all, BTW.)

Politicians make asinine laws all the time; we don't have to agree with them; we've try to change them more appropriate and intelligent. IHMO

 

[NavyLCDR]

Somebody please tell LCDR that this conversation is about CONCEALED CARRY. He is having a hard time getting that point, here, and in several other places.

Your dissertation may have been about concealed carry....however this puzzles me:

First why is your statement of "If you can’t conceal it, do not carry it." under ethical implications? Is there something unethical about not concealing a firearm?

Second, it is clear that you are squarely against open carry. A statement of "If you can’t conceal it, then know for certain that open carry is legal in your location" would be more appropriate, which would be a legal concern, not an ethical one.

And, actually, I am trying to impress a class of people by carrying my firearm. I am attempting to impress upon the criminal who might be evaluating me as a target that it is simply not worth the effort to choose me as a target and encourage them to take the easy way and wait 2 minutes for me to leave or go down the street one block and pick a target not known to have the capability to kill them.

 

[PTMCCAIN]

"I think the question was perfect. Why wouldn't a person that has consumed a few beers be allowed to defend his/her life anymore? (I don't drink at all, BTW.)"

You can drink and you can defend your life.

You just may not be able to use a gun to do it.

I stand by my assertion that firearms and drinking don't mix, no pun intended.

This story just popped up on the Gun Wire:
http://www.katu.com/news/local/Man-...V-bullet-goes-into-nearby-home-162655196.html

 

[PTMCCAIN]

"Your dissertation IS about concealed carry"

You should have stopped there, and used the word is, not may.

The rest of your comments are irrelevant to my article.
Your accusations are baseless.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I stand by my assertion that firearms and drinking don't mix, no pun intended.

I agree. Where our opinions seem to differ is what consitutes drinking. I don't consider a drink or two with dinner "drinking", but merely having a drink with dinner. How many people would have a Budweiser with their steak and then say they were drinking last night? Whole different animal than running up a tab at the bar.

If a person feels that they are inpaired after one drink, then that person should probably not consume alcohol while carrying a weapon. Me? I know I I'm under .05 BAC after two drinks and will not feel one bit fuzzy. After 2, they have to be spaced out between 40-60 minutes, depending on food intake, or I would be over. Actual impairment? That's more like 4 or 5 drinks within an hour for me.

Everybody metabolises alcohol differently. If you do not know your body well enough to judge how much you can handle, err on the side of caution. But if it's not against the law and you are not ability impaired by it, why not enjoy a cold one without concern for having to ditch your CCW?

 

[DoubleSawbuck]

I'm glad PA doesn't strip you of your rights if you've had a few drinks.

While it may not be the best idea to get stupid while carrying and it certainly won't help your defense if you need to use it, most people even while drunk don't lose all control.

I think if you know you're the type of person who loses control or can't stop themselves from getting into trouble you'll have to pick for yourself but that shouldn't take away from other peoples rights.

 

[Hunter125]

Can you tell when you are impaired with any certainty? I think the possibility of being impaired makes you unqualified to make that judgment. The only way of knowing for sure is to not drink at all.

I'm not saying that someone who is drinking has no right to self defense, just that the possibilty of being impaired, whether you realize it or not, makes that same person using a gun for self defense a scary proposition.

Maybe your group should have a designated CCWer who doesn't drink that night. They could also drive you home.

Alcohol does lots of things to people that makes adding guns to the mix really scary. Emotions can go haywire, motor skills go away, etc, etc. My wife has done some addiction counseling training. Alcohol is on par with heavy drugs like cocaine and heroin as far as addition and physical effects go. Mix it with guns? No thanks.

 

[btg3]

you shoot to stop the thread

That's a feature that more forums should have!

 

[bergmen]

Can you tell when you are impaired with any certainty? I think the possibility of being impaired makes you unqualified to make that judgment. The only way of knowing for sure is to not drink at all.

I'm not saying that someone who is drinking has no right to self defense, just that the possibilty of being impaired, whether you realize it or not, makes that same person using a gun for self defense a scary proposition.

Maybe your group should have a designated CCWer who doesn't drink that night. They could also drive you home.

Alcohol does lots of things to people that makes adding guns to the mix really scary. Emotions can go haywire, motor skills go away, etc, etc. My wife has done some addiction counseling training. Alcohol is on par with heavy drugs like cocaine and heroin as far as addition and physical effects go. Mix it with guns? No thanks.

Well said. This statement:

"Alcohol does lots of things to people that makes adding guns to the mix really scary." needs to include the prosecutor who could very definitely zero in on ANY alcohol in the system as an indicator of impairment with NO NEED to show any demonstration of impairment. It will be the measured BAC, no matter how small, that the prosecutor (or lawyer hired by the family of the "victim" if a civil suit is filed) will use to burn you at the stake.

Whether or not anyone thinks they are okay with any alcohol in the system as far as any impairment is concerned it is the AFTERMATH of the shooting that needs to be taken into account. You are vulnerable, depending on the jurisdiction, of the shooter being vilified for even the appearance of wrong doing.

Dan

 

[DoubleSawbuck]

Whether or not anyone thinks they are okay with any alcohol in the system as far as any impairment is concerned it is the AFTERMATH of the shooting that needs to be taken into account. You are vulnerable, depending on the jurisdiction, of the shooter being vilified for even the appearance of wrong doing.

A justified shooting is a justified shooting whether you've been drinking or not. Either way you must be protecting yourself against death or serious bodily injury. I agree it is not a good idea to mix alcohol and firearms but the second amendment and right to life doesn't (and shouldn't) stop when you pick up a bottle.

http://articles.philly.com/2011-02-16/news/28538617_1_gerald-ung-law-student-unarmed-man