Concealed Carry Considerations

[Frank Ettin]

A justified shooting is a justified shooting whether you've been drinking or not. Either way you must be protecting yourself against death or serious bodily injury. I agree it is not a good idea to mix alcohol and firearms but the second amendment and right to life doesn't (and shouldn't) stop when you pick up a bottle.

http://articles.philly.com/2011-02-16/news/28538617_1_gerald-ung-law-student-unarmed-man

Sorry, but you don't get it.

[1] This "a good shoot is a good shoot" business is nonsense. You will not be the one deciding whether or not your use of violence was justified. If there's a dispute, it will be up to your trial jury.

[2] In order to establish that your act of extreme violence against another human was legally justified, you will need to put on evidence that a reasonable person in like circumstances would have concluded that lethal force was necessary to protect against immediate death or grave bodily injury at the hands of another. That will put your perception and judgment into issue. And if you'd been drinking, you can expect the prosecutor to argue that your perception and judgment were compromised.

[3] Note that the Gerald Ung incident was captured on video, and he was still charged with the crimes of aggravated assault and attempted murder and brought to trial. If the jury had not accepted his self defense plea, he could have gone to prison for a long time.

[4] As it was, Ung was forced to undergo a trial and the enormous stress that goes along with that.

[5] The legal bills for a jury trial on a serious criminal charge will generally run between $50,000 and $150,000.

[6] For a better understanding of how a plea of self defense works, see this thread. And this is a good article about the legal realities of defending a self defense case.

 

[Hunter125]

Bergmen, I mentioned that in post #19, though not as eloquently as you did.

 

[bergmen]

Bergmen, I mentioned that in post #19, though not as eloquently as you did.

Yes, definitely, I saw your post and attempted to add to it and reinforce the position since I didn't see it being discussed here as such.

Dan

 

[Girodin]

Have you/do you drink alcohol with car keys in your pocket? Do you have a problem with people who do drink alcohol with car keys in their pockets? More people die every year from alcohol related car crashed than alcohol related gun incidents. So why the double standard because the object on the belt is a gun rather than car keys?

A more apt comparison would be open container or actual physical control laws. Where I live, if you drink inside your car that is illegal. If you are .08 and you are in your car with "actual physical control" (keys don't need to be in the ignition even) that is a DUI.

So yes I, and the law, takes exception to folks drinking when they have actual physical control of a car. Having your keys in your pocket and being far away from the car is very different. If a gun is on your hip you are in actual physical control. drinking when you are in actual physical control of a car is dumb. Same for a gun.

In sum, having keys in your pocket is not an apt analogy to having a loaded gun on your hip.

 

[JagerRanger]

I agree it is not a good idea to mix alcohol and firearms but the second amendment and right to life doesn't (and shouldn't) stop when you pick up a bottle.

I agree regardless of the fact of legal life provided by fiddletown. The same applies to pain killers. Why would I need to disarm myself due to back surgery recovery? I'm I really that compromised perception and judgment wise by a Percoset?? I doubt that especially with the chronically ill - arthritis, etc. Americans.

If that is the case, then the standard ought to be zero. Not a gulp of beer or herb teas.

FYI, I do not drink.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I agree it is not a good idea to mix alcohol and firearms but the second amendment and right to life doesn't (and shouldn't) stop when you pick up a bottle.

I agree regardless of the fact of legal life provided by fiddletown. The same applies to pain killers. Why would I need to disarm myself due to back surgery recovery? I'm I really that compromised perception and judgment wise by a Percoset?? ...

Nonetheless, that facts of legal life are as I described them. If your perception and judgment are a factor, impairments caused by alcohol or drugs (even prescription medications) will become an issue. And indeed people have probably made errors of perception or judgment under the influence of alcohol or drugs.

That's just real life. How you handle it is up to you.

 

[Mayvik]

I am experiencing [insert medical issue here] and am taking [insert over-the-counter medicine here]. Should I not go out in public with a weapon because the label on [medicine] says my abilities may be impaired? At what point does "being a responsible citizen who carries to protect themselves and those they care about" turn into "I am hyper paranoid and do not do anything enjoyable or leave my residence in less than 100% peak condition"?

Maybe some LEOs with experience can chime in here, but is administering a breath/blood test to a shooter SOP in obvious or even borderline self-defense shootings (imagine this varies wildly with jurisdiction)? Purely speculation but it would seem to me that unless obviously ability impaired being adrenalized and rattled from just having to shoot someone(s) is going to be vastly more apparent than whether or not you had an adult beverage or two. Unless asked directly or you volunteer it, I'd guess it's a small probability of a problem on top of the small probability of a shooting on top of the small probability of a shooting right after you happened to imbibe.

 

[mortablunt]

@ PTMCCAIN: Brilliant post! This ought to be stickied with great big bolt letters "READ CAREFULLY BEFORE POSTING!"

Now to critique it.

Concealed Carry Considerations
I've really learned a lot from all the comments that have been offered in response to the concealed carry article I wrote. I've tried to incorporate as much of the constructive criticism as I can and here is version two.

Let me know what you think.

Concealed Carry Considerations

With the boom in firearm ownership in recent years, there are a lot of new gun owners, taking advantage of their rights as citizens of the United States of America to “keep and bear arms.” But carrying a concealed firearm is an awesome responsibility. Let’s take a few minutes to consider some things you need to think through very carefully before you decide to carry a concealed weapon. There are legal, ethical, moral and competency implications.

Anyone who could not grasp those first paragraphs without needing to be told should be carry. We're talking about lives here.

Here are just some of the things you need to be aware of:

Legal Implications

If you carry a gun, you need to be aware of, and prepared to accept the legal consequences, whatever they may be. Are you willing to go through the trouble and expense – both financially and emotionally – of being arrested, charged and tried if you have to use your firearm? If not, leave your firearm at home. Are you ready to deal with whatever might come your way when it comes to encounters with law enforcement officials who may or may not understand and respect your state and local carry laws? Keep in mind that when you carry a firearm you are doing so for defensive purposes. The very concept of defense is to do what is necessary to stop a threat to ones own life or the life of another.

I am very doubtful about my ability to weather the legal bills. I would likely need to find a public defender or a pro bono lawyer. I understand that a bad day alive is superior to a good day dead. If I ever use a firearm, then I will have to suffer the consequences. Encounters with law enforcement must be handled more carefully no matter your carry style because American police are very aware of the threat of lethal force and are not in a hurry to be slain. I never imagined carrying a gun offensively, nor would that be something I'd do. The purpose of the citizen's gun is to protect hearth and home.

Ethical Implications

When you take on the responsibility of being an armed citizen, you also assume a greater level of ethical responsibility for every aspect of your behavior while packing. You don’t pick fights. You don’t respond to aggressive comments or gestures by going for your gun. You never go looking for trouble. You don’t – ever – drink while armed. And you never brandish it or joke around about carrying concealed. Concealed means concealed…in every possible sense. If you can’t conceal it, do not carry it. You aren’t trying to impress anyone by carrying. Your ethical posture has to be above reproach when carrying. And, don’t get dragged into a conversation about “shooting to kill.” You do not shoot to kill, you shoot to stop the thread and to defend yourself or others in a true emergency.

Picking fights was never my style. Picking fights is the surest way to lose. I had to remind a transit police officer in Germany to be careful with where he put his hands, because he had to rather panic-inducing habit of resting his hand on his pistol. I seldom drink anyway and hate the feeling of being drunk, even though I am one of those happy harmless drunks. Now I disagree about the duty to conceal. Open Carry is another perfectly valid way of carrying a gun and has its own advantages. It is also the only option sometimes available to the young or recently relocated. Assuming that Open Carry is a form of peacocking is something I heartily disagree with. And while shoot to kill is not the politically correct way of putting the proper manner for defensive shooting, it is the realistic outcome of what will transpire. The fire stops when the threat ends. Do not fire at a runner, do not fire at someone who is down, do not execute; no more force than absolutely necessary.

Moral Implications
Are you mentally prepared to defend yourself? If not, the gun should stay in your safe. If you think you are just going to pull the gun out and wave it around to scare somebody off, don’t carry. If the gun comes out of its holster, you must already have decided to stop a threat. You are using your gun defensively, that is, you are shooting to stop the threat of immanent bodily harm to you, to your loved ones, or an innocent party who is being attacked in danger of being killed. Are you prepared to do whatever it takes to stop a threat and to defend yourself? Have you thought long and hard about what that means? Are you willing to see what a bullet will do to a human body? People don’t always just fall over dead like in the movies. You have to prepare yourself for the emotional trauma of gravely wounding or killing another human being, but remember, your goal is never to kill anyone, it is to stop a threat. Drawing your weapon is the last resort in a truly life, or death, situation, where you must act to defend yourself, or others.

I have spend much of my life as a victim. I have adopted the never again attitude towards it. I partially got into shooting so that I wouldn't be forced to choose between victimization and destruction. I refuse to let myself be anybody's victim. I know from experience how aggressors are; the threat of force means nothing to them without followup. I've seen what bullets do to people. I don't like unnecessary force to begin with, even if it's just verbal. However, I know where to draw the line an I will refuse to let atrocities happen.

Competency Implications

If you are going to carry a concealed weapon, you need to be rigorous about safe, competent gun handling. Your gun is always loaded – or it better be. That means you must never ever, under any circumstance, draw it while carrying unless you’re truly in a life or death situation.

You do not pull it out to show to your buddies. You never point the weapon at anyone, which is referred to as "covering" somebody. Your finger should not be on the trigger, but "indexed" or simply lying against the firearm, ready to move to the trigger, but not on the trigger or in the trigger guard. You simply do not “play around” with your concealed firearm. It goes in the holster and never comes out, unless absolutely necessary.

And you need to be fully trained in the use of your firearm. Find a competent instructor and take a class. Better yet, take several classes. Just as if you want to get to Carnegie hall, you need to practice, practice and practice some more. You owe it to yourself to get in as much range time with your carry gun as you possibly can. If you aren’t willing to master all aspects of handling your concealed carry firearm, don’t strap it on.

Obey all the rules all the time. Decry and do not imitate. those who do not, as you will outlive them. Teach them the proper way, for you may save their life. Any lethal weapon, whether or not is a firearm, is a final solution for when all others have failed. To draw it frivolously is fundamentally indecent and the zenith of stupidity. If my friends want to see and examine my weapon, then they may. It must be indoors or at a shooting place behind the firing line with magazines removed, the chamber empty, and the safety on. All rules must be followed. A safety cannot cause an accident, but it can fail to prevent one. Just as owning a guitar does not make you a rockstar, owning a firearm does not make you a badass. training is essential and must be done frequently and with serious intensity. Without such measures, then the one time where you need your weapon, your skill will fail you and you will suffer great harm.

These are just some of the things you will need to consider before you take on the responsibility of concealed carry. Yes, it’s your right, but you need to exercise that right legally, ethically, morally and competently or you’ll hurt the cause of those that do.

And finally, here is a good “creed” for a person carrying concealed to live by:

If I draw my gun from it's holster, I have decided that lethal force is imminently necessary to prevent or end the use of force, which I reasonably believe will cause grave bodily harm or death against me. The ultimate fate of my adversary is not my goal, is not even my consideration. I must cause them to cease the actions that I believe are deadly to me. Nothing more. I do not shoot to kill. I shoot to make them stop.

Take care, and stay safe!

That's the single best brief manifesto about the things surrounding exercising the right to carry. Spread this around as much as you can.

 

[easyg]

Thanks for sharing your views.
Not necessarily bad advice, but I disagree with a few parts...

Ethical Implications

When you take on the responsibility of being an armed citizen, you also assume a greater level of ethical responsibility for every aspect of your behavior while packing.

You don’t – ever – drink while armed.

If you can’t conceal it, do not carry it.

The mere act of carrying a pistol should not alter one's ethics at all.
Carrying a pistol is ethically no different than carrying a pocket-knife or a wrench or a length of rope...all of which could be used to harm others.

And merely drinking a beer while carrying a pistol has nothing to do with ethics at all.
Nor is it a horrible thing.

I live in a state that allows open carry, so if someone happens to spot my "concealed" handgun then it's no big deal.
And this has nothing to do with ethics either.

Moral Implications

Are you mentally prepared to defend yourself? If not, the gun should stay in your safe.

If the gun comes out of its holster, you must already have decided to stop a threat.

Unless you have actually shot someone before, you will never know if you are mentally prepared to shoot someone in order to defend yourself.

And before you advise someone to leave their weapon in the safe ask them if they are mentally prepared to be beaten senseless, raped, and robbed, and possibly killed by some thug.

And if you hear an unusual noise in your home, and you think it might be an intruder, even though you have not already decided to stop a threat (you don't even know if there is a threat), it would be perfectly reasonable to go ahead and unholster your weapon.

Competency Implications

Your gun is always loaded – or it better be. That means you must never ever, under any circumstance, draw it while carrying unless you’re truly in a life or death situation.

You do not pull it out to show to your buddies.

It goes in the holster and never comes out, unless absolutely necessary.

No, there's nothing wrong with drawing your weapon to show one of your buddies.

And if I hear something suspicious in my house, I'm not going to investigate with a holstered pistol.

And you need to be fully trained in the use of your firearm. Find a competent instructor and take a class. Better yet, take several classes.
Just as if you want to get to Carnegie hall, you need to practice, practice and practice some more. You owe it to yourself to get in as much range time with your carry gun as you possibly can. If you aren’t willing to master all aspects of handling your concealed carry firearm, don’t strap it on.

I agree that training is a good thing.
And range time is great too.
But the truth of the matter is that handguns are very simple tools and don't really require much instruction for one to become competent enough for self defense.
The "self defense industry" has convinced a lot of folks that unless they spend hundreds of hours (and lots of $$$) they will simply not be able to defend themselves with a firearm.