I know your not supposed to but does anyone handload their carry ammo.

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Posted by jerkface11: Mr. Ayoob is the leading proponent of this theory. So far he has failed to give even ONE example of a self defense shooting where the shooter was convicted because they used handloads.

Jerkface, were you able to comprehend Post 48 at all? How about Post 31? have you studied the links provided in Post 12?

Do you know how gunshot residue evidence is used in criminal investigations and in court?

Do you understand how GSR evidence might become critical in a trial in which the defendant claims self defense?

Do you have a working understanding of the rules governing the admissibility of scientific forensic trace evidence? Do you understand how they would be applied in determining the admissibility of evidence involving handloads?

Are you under the mistaken impression that applicable an legal precedent would have to involve a ruling that had to do with a self defense case involving handloads?
 
Kleanbore
To establish that, one would have to review the transcripts of every gun-related homicide case in every county court in the country over an extended period, establish which cases might be relevant, and interview every juror in each case. That has not been done. Google does not reveal everything.
And that is my point; Find ONE! Just one.

So many of you talk about how the law/courts work yet do NOT specifically cite ONE case of a SELF DEFENSE shooting using handloads. I do understand what you are saying about admissibility, just show me precedent, in a self defense case!

Not a single one....
 
Posted by zxcvbob: If you don't need to present GSR evidence, it doesn't matter. You don't know ahead of time (but for myself, I've decided that I'm unlikely to need GSR evidence to justify a shooting in my own house -- it'll either be justified or it won't and the distance involved etc. won't matter much.)
Good point.

What I'm concerned about is the encounter that takes place outdoors, in which evidence is sketchy and witness testimony is contradictory or inconclusive.
 
If the factories were able to mass produce ammo to standards of quality that I was willing to trust my life with, I would use factory ammo. They don't so I'll load my own. I have seen boxes of factory ammo with primers inserted backwards and sideways, cases that have no flash hole, etc. Ammo carried for self defense HAS TO WORK 100%. Carrying factory ammo is exactly like carrying a gun that you've never even checked to see if it will fire, feed or eject. I haven't bought any factory loads for many years now and from the reports I'm seeing in the last couple of years their QC has gotten worse. Look at all of the threads people post about the bullets in factory ammo setting back into the case after just a couple of chamberings. Ten years ago that was unheard of. Now it has become accepted by most consumers as just the way it is and all ammo does it. Mine doesn't.
 
People keep claiming you can go to jail for using handloads in self defense. However they can't cite a single case where it happened. Talking to me like I'm stupid won't make you more right.
 
Kleanbore
Are you under the mistaken impression that applicable an legal precedent would have to involve a ruling that had to do with a self defense case involving handloads?
Are you suggesting that a pereson in the act of saving their own life or a loved one has had GSR evidence used against them in a case involving handloads?

it seems to me that there is a lot of "it could happen" in everything your saying, and not a single shread of real world facts.

Just a whole lot, a bunch, of speculation.

Might you also tell me not to have a laser on my gun because a jury might see me as a Gadget geek wanabe killer or some other speculative drivle.
 
People keep claiming you can go to jail for using handloads in self defense. However they can't cite a single case where it happened. Talking to me like I'm stupid won't make you more right.
__________________
+1

100% agree
Kleanbore
Jerkface, were you able to comprehend Post 48 at all? How about Post 31? have you studied the links provided in Post 12?
All we want are specific facts related to handloads and SD shootings, I comprehended that you didn't cite any.
 
Posted by 357 Terms: And that is my point; Find ONE! Just one.

So many of you talk about how the law/courts work yet do NOT specifically cite ONE case of a SELF DEFENSE shooting using handloads. I do understand what you are saying about admissibility, just show me precedent, in a self defense case!

Not a single one....
Obviously, you do not understand Post 48 at all--or the law, for that matter.

It doesn't matter whether there has been one such case, dozens, or none at all.

If you are involved in a shooting in which your defense hinges upon gSR evidence or lack of same and upon the admissibility of test data from your exemplar ammunition, you will learn the hard way.

That did happen with the Bias case, and why anyone might believe for a moment that the fact that that was not a self defense case has any bearing on the issue is beyond me.
 
why anyone might believe for a moment that the fact that that was not a self defense case has any bearing on the issue is beyond me.

Perhaps because we are talking about self defense cases? Not murders dressed up to look like suicides.
 
Kleanbore
Obviously, you do not understand Post 48 at all--or the law, for that matter.

It doesn't matter whether there has been one such case, dozens, or none at all.
LOL you slay me! then it is all speculation c'mon, at least admitt it
 
How exactly would they know its handloaded ammo anyway?
1. Don't mention it.
2. If asked, then don't lie.
3. If asked why you didn't mention it, then say, "I didn't think it was important".
4. If accused of loading 'killer ammo', then produce your load data and loaded samples to dispel said accusation.

With the above stated... I'd rather just spend $20 on ammo I'll probably never need. I have enough other headaches in my life and I wouldn't want even the slightest chance of that $20 savings complicating my legal defense even the slightest bit. Okay... I'd spend at least another $100 testing said ammo in my gun. It's still worth it to me.
 
Good point.

What I'm concerned about is the encounter that takes place outdoors, in which evidence is sketchy and witness testimony is contradictory or inconclusive.
And beyond that, what if there is known 'bad blood' between the shooter and the attacker?

I had a neighbor who was always threatening to beat the heck out of me and he insinuated far worse. I was always armed on my property. He had many boozed-up drugged-up gang friends who, I'm sure, he could count on to lie for him.

One never knows how things can be complicated by various factors...
 
Posted by jerkface11: People keep claiming you can go to jail for using handloads in self defense.
No, NO, NO!

Jerkface, you keep missing the point.

One will never go to jail "for using handloads".

People do go to jail or shooting people. Sometimes they shoot people and claim self defense, and the judge refuses to issue a favorable jury instruction so their claim of self defense can be evaluated by the triers of fact. And sometimes, they go to jail because the triers of fact did not believe their defense of justification.

When that happens, the verdict is made on the basis of the totality of the evidence. Witness testimony, forensic evidence that may include GSR evidence, perhaps a security camera, all enter into it.

Depending upon the evidence and the testimony, any one factor may tip the balance.
 
Posted by jerkface11:[why anyone might believe for a moment that the fact that that was not a self defense case has any bearing on the issue is beyond me.]
Perhaps because we are talking about self defense cases? Not murders dressed up to look like suicides.
Jerkface, the law does not care.
 
Perhaps because we are talking about self defense cases? Not murders dressed up to look like suicides.
The rules of evidence are the same. The burden of proof might be different.

Folks have to decide this issue for themselves. There are good arguments and bad arguments for both sides. Even the bad arguments probably have a small amount of merit.

People (myself included) are very bad at accessing the risk for low-probability catastrophes. Maybe that's a good thing, otherwise we'd be paralyzed with fear all the time, afraid to get out of bed and also afraid to stay in bed.
 
People (myself included) are very bad at accessing the risk for low-probability catastrophes. Maybe that's a good thing, otherwise we'd be paralyzed with fear all the time, afraid to get out of bed and also afraid to stay in bed.

And yet we are being told things based on speculation and not fact.

There is precedent of a man being prosecuted for using a 10mm in a SD shoot(Fish) yet I don't hear anyone on this forum suggest that using a 10mm is potentially dangerous.

Yet there is this handload SD speculation based on no fact.
 
I think most people are missing the point that Kleanbore was trying to say. You are not going to go to jail cause you handloaded your own rounds. Any arguement the prosecution can come up with as far you loading your own rounds your attorney should be able to counter. But if by chance your trial depends on gunshot residue to prove beyond doubt your side of the story, or the lack of it, your handload data cannot be used in court since it wasn't factory.

The chances of that being the only thing to you going free or spending years in jail are probably small. But if you are the one going through the trial, everything that points in your favor the better.
 
Posted by 357 Terms: And yet we are being told things based on speculation and not fact.
No--based on established legal principles and upon standard, accepted criminal investigative techniques. It's very, very basic law stuff.

The fact that one does not have access to a self defense case in which there is knowledge of how hand loaded ammunition may have played a part means nothing to an attorney; he or she will base his or her assessment on other relevant facts. Fiddletown, who is an attorney, has explained why there are little data on SD shootings involving handloads:
  • Very few people have intentionally shot other people with handloads.
  • Of those who have, not all have claimed self defense.
  • Of those who did, not all were charged.
  • Of those who were charged, not all were faced with having insufficient evidence to support a defense of justification or with contradictory evidence.
  • Of those who were faced with that predicament, none that we know of have hinged on the admissibility of GSR test results of their exemplar rounds.

The first criterion probably reduces the number of cases to be further evaluated to a handful.

So--with so little to look at. why worry? Simply because (1) once a person has intentionally shot someone else with hand loads, (2) unless the evidence in support of a defense of justification is clear, and (3) if the state's case depends in part on the lack of GSR evidence on the person shot, the rules of evidence can cook the proverbial goose of the shooter. Never mind that few people end up in that situation. Once you do, it's a very serious situation indeed.

So--when might a shooting with handloads prove problematical? Let's evaluate that by answering when it will not be a problem.

If the shooting involved a forcible entry of one's home, it won't matter what he or she used. The case will hinge on other factors, such as any prior connection between the parties.

If the shooting occurred out of doors and all of the witnesses, or at least all except the person shot, support the defendant's account of the evidence, it won't matter.

If the evidence, forensic and otherwise, clearly supports the defendant's account, it won't matter.

Whether or not the evidence favors the defendant, if a lack of GSR on the person shot is not pertinent to either side's account of the incident, it won't matter.

If the shooter cannot provide at least some evidence on each point in a self defense case and he or she does not end up with a favorable jury instruction, it won't matter--it will not be tried as a self defense case anyway.​

What does that leave? Let's look at when the use of handloads may prove problematical:

The shooter states that the shooting occurred at relatively short range;

witness testimony, which is notoriously unreliable, disputes the defendant's account on that and perhaps other aspects of the case;

other evidence contradicts the defendant's account--for an example, suppose that the shooter's empty cases have rolled or have been blown to a point other than that from where the defendant says he or she fired; ....

...the lack of gunshot residue on the person shot indicates that the distance at which the shooting took place was greater than what the defendant claimed; and finally...

test results of the defendant's rounds would help to support his or her credibility.

These are the things that may determine whether it was a "good shoot"'

Too many ifs? Consider that even if the likelihood is low, the potential consequence is losing one's clean record, personal fortune, and personal freedom.

What are the chances? Well, it's only anecdotal, but the analysis that Tom Givens provides in his DVD "Lessons from the Street" indicate that one is more likely to have to use his forearm to defend oneself outdoors than in the home.

Take a look around you. Are you confident that if you do have to shoot, you will have an abundance of evidence and favorable testimony to ensure your prosperous future?

If you think that because you know that you are a good guy the outcome will be a slam dunk, read this.

We will never convince those who will not listen or who cannot understand these concepts, but perhaps we can help others make informed decisions.
 
Posted by SSN Vet: you can choose to let the sea lawyers run your life if you want to.....

I choose not to!
I do not see how accepting sound legal advice to not carry hand leaded ammunition for self defense would in any way constitute running my life, but I can see how having a trial court judge, acting at the instigation of expert witnesses for the prosecution, rule that evidence critical to may defense will not be admitted could surely ruin my life.
 
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