Illegal Immigration-How to fix it?

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Jammer Six,


You provide quality where it counts and you'll find low bidders going away. Quality doesn't always mean high costs. A bit higher, maybe, but Americans grasp that quite well...hence the reason we see so many Japanese cars on our roads. Americans will pay for quality if you can demonstrate its value.

We aren't talking about locking up the drug dealers, we are talking about removing their market. Take away the profit and it goes away. I support legalization for this method.

Why would you lock up a law-abiding biz owner? You shut down the ones who break the law (close the market) and you are left with the honest ones. I've got no problem with a sleeping foreman being fired for negligence and replacing him with a legal immigrant who does a better job.

Immigration is already legal, there is just a huge market for those who would avoid those pesky legalities. Kill the profit and the market goes away.

You are right, we do get stronger every time an immigrant crosses the border...as long as we refers to Americans who are sick of losing jobs to illegals. Money talks and mi amigo, the gringos still have the money. Failing that, we still have the guns.
 
/*If people are willing to pay another $20,000 for their $200,000 house, then fine,” said Chuck Saxton, a contractor who regularly hires immigrant workers for a fraction of what full-time U.S. workers would cost*/

Maybe that $20,000 should come out of his pocket and not his customers. Maybe drive the same customized pickup two years in a row and skip one of his vacations.

When the meatpacking industry broke the unions back 20 years ago and replaced them with labor costing half the money, did anyone see meat prices in the store take a big plunge? I didn't either. If costs go up because of higher priced labor, why don't they go down with lower priced labor?
 
*If people are willing to pay another $20,000 for their $200,000 house, then fine,” said Chuck Saxton, a contractor who regularly hires immigrant workers for a fraction of what full-time U.S. workers would cost*/
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So he evades the payroll tax and worker's compensation laws with which his competitors must comply. In short, Chuck's just another criminal. Bet he slaps together some shoddy construction, too.
 
When the meatpacking industry broke the unions back 20 years ago and replaced them with labor costing half the money, did anyone see meat prices in the store take a big plunge? I didn't either. If costs go up because of higher priced labor, why don't they go down with lower priced labor?
Click to expand...

I expect the same from the American auto industry once the smoke has cleared and they have lower cost labor will prices drop, my guess, no.:rolleyes:
 
Why would you lock up a law-abiding biz owner?
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I have no idea- I'm not advocating it.

My general impression is "impotent fear".

I've pointed out, many times, in several threads, that a business owner can scrupulously obey all laws, and end up with illegal immigrants on his or her payroll. I've demonstrated how easy it is, and how little it costs. So has NBC.

The fact that this "solution" would end up locking up employers who obeyed the law, and who are, by definition, innocent, doesn't seem to be a factor. It's one of (many) logical or practical errors in the "lock up the employer" solution.

So I guess I'm going to have to leave your question as an excercise for the reader. I have no idea what the answer to it is.

It is pretty amusing, though... :D
 
wingman,
The American auto industry (specifically GM) needs to hack labor costs just to remain afloat. This is one place where unions have run totally amock. I've got no problem with GM wanting to trim the UAW fat and I believe that they will actually get most of their old workers back once the dust settles. Hopefully GM will be able to enter bankruptcy and come out a leaner, more efficient machine with better labor agreements.

This, however doesn't mean our costs will fall...simply that American auto industry will once again, be profitable. I don't mind paying a little extra for an American product provided that it is of similar quality to something coming from Japan.

The Japanese auto plants in the US are a great model. They have resisted unionization to a large extent and still manage to produce good quality products AND maintain a happy workforce with good wages.
 
Jammer, nobody hires an illegal unless they are negligent in their processes.

Any decent HR department will catch on in a larger business
Any small business will have a more hands on approach and would catch such a thing.

I suppose an illegal could slip through the cracks every now and then. Mistakes get made and people are still human. Thankfully, we can allow for that, give the person a stern talking to and a slap on the wrist and be done with it.

We aren't talking about mistakes, we are talking about companies who knowingly turn a blind eye in the name of profit.

I don't think you are comprehending (my guess is willful ignorance) what people are advocating when they want to bust a black market. Illegal immigration is a crime and it is totally possible to get here legally. We've tried making it easier to come here legally and all we've seen from our hospitality is increased welfare spending and soaring crime rates. We have enough of our own poor, we don't need to import them.
 
Well, Jammer, we weren't really discussing jailing employers who made a mistake, that was you who tried to lead the discussion off in that direction. What was being discussed, was jailing employers who knowingly and willfully hire illegals, like.....You! (if you are what you say you are, I have my doubts).

Tell me this, Mr champion of the poor illegal, do you pay your illegal workers the same scale as legitimate carpenters in the Seattle area?
 
Right, solutions!

The INS "Operation Vanguard" worked so well to stop illegal aliens at the meatpacking plants that Congress stepped in and stopped it.

Basically, the INS checked lists of the employees with the information contained in INS, Social Security Administration (SSA), and other data bases. Those with discrepancies were asked to attend interviews to "clear it up".

Here is what the opponents of this effective program had to say about it:

"During the three-hour meeting focusing on Operation Vanguard the INS was charged with violating privacy, reducing livestock prices, creating an uncomfortable work atmosphere and increasing the number of people receiving state aid."


Here is a link on how it worked:

http://www.nilc.org/immsemplymnt/wkplce_enfrcmnt/wkplcenfrc008.htm
 
by all means Jammer, post some proof.

I'd love to see how a company mistakenly hires someone who isn't allowed to work here.
 
Here is another piece on "Operation Vanguard" with the link following:

"Nebraska's congressional delegation met with the INS in May and June 1999
to complain about the impact of Operation Vanguard on the state's meatpacking
industry. Sen. Bob Kerrey (D-NE) said that Vanguard caused cattle and
hog prices to decline because slaughter-line speeds had to be slowed as
unauthorized workers quit.

Operation Vanguard reflects the new INS strategy of issuing do-not-hire
letters to employers rather than raiding work places. In November 1998, the
INS subpoenaed Social Security numbers and A-numbers of employed workers from
meatpackers and checked employee data against national databases. In March
1999, the INS announced that a review of 26,000 employee records at 40
meatpacking plants found 4,500 (17 percent) had discrepancies. These workers
were asked to clarify their status before the INS interviewed them in plant
visits.

Many of the workers quit before the INS arrived. The INS said that 2,149
of the 3,135 workers that it planned to interview in Nebraska plants quit
rather than be interviewed by the INS. As of June 1999, the INS interviewed
1,040 workers and arrested 34 unauthorized workers.

http://migration.ucdavis.edu/rmn/more.php?id=377_0_2_0

So if you ever hear anyone say that we can't do anything about it, ask them why "Operation Vanguard" was not given a chance, and why wouldn't it work.
 
caveat negotium

I'd strongly advise employers drunk on hiring illegal aliens to begin policing themselves, voluntarily. I'm going to predict that such employers are not going to be very popular in the months and years ahead, to put it mildly. The American worker gets the Master Plan now, and he/she is not very happy with fellow citizens who have no regard for community, morality, and law. He/she is going to identify "the enemy" as malfeasant employers and traitorous politicians.
 
Here is a clear cut example of business actively seeking out illegal labor. I believe it was Newt Gingrich who said we needed amnesty. . . . .for business owners who hire illegal immigrants.

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/02/07/Business/Tyson_asked_for_smugg.shtml

Tyson asked for smuggled workers, border agent says
©Associated Press
February 7, 2003

CHATTANOOGA, Tenn. -- A Border Patrol agent testified Thursday that he posed as a smuggler and delivered illegal workers, including some by commercial flights, to Tyson Foods managers looking for cheap labor.

Prosecutors in the meat giant's federal conspiracy trial also played secretly recorded tapes that agent Benito Maldonado testified were his telephone conversations with then-Tyson managers.

Maldonado identified a voice on one such tape as Tyson's Monroe, N.C., plant manager, Robert Sanford, telling Maldonado he needed hundreds of workers.

"Hell, I put over 700 people to work," said the voice identified by the agent as Sanford. "I'm going to need to replace 300 or 400 people -- maybe 500. I'm going to need a lot."

Springfield, Ark.-based Tyson and three company officials are charged with conspiring to smuggle illegal immigrants to work on the production lines of the nation's largest poultry processor.

Tyson spokesman Gary Michelson said during a break that the tapes played for jurors "involve former Tyson employees who violated company hiring policies and were subsequently terminated."

While the government claims the smuggling was part of a conspiracy that reached to the top levels of Tyson, the company contends any hiring of illegal immigrants was done by a few plant managers and was not known to executives.

The three company officials named in the indictment -- Gerald Lankford, 63, of North Wilkesboro, N.C., Robert Hash, 49, of Greenwood, Ark., and Keith Snyder, 42, of Bella Vista, Ark. -- all maintain their innocence.

Maldonado, who said he was known to Tyson as Benjamin, described picking up eight illegal immigrants outside a warehouse near where they sneaked across Mexico's border into Del Rio, Texas, in January 1998.

On the tapes played in court, a speaker identified as Sanford said he had to check with his boss about paying for the eight workers. Maldonado said Tyson managers paid $100 for each worker and helped collect payments totaling $1,000 from the immigrants for their transportation and fake identification.

The agent testified that Charles Cook, a Tyson personnel manager at Glen Allen, Va., told him he had talked to his supervisors and wanted workers from Guatemala.

Maldonado said some Tyson plants started using an employee screening program in 1998 that made it more difficult for them to hire illegal workers using fake Social Security cards.

He said 136 illegal immigrants were taken to Tyson plants in six states. Another 18 illegals were intercepted before reaching Cumming, Ga.

Prosecutors contend the conspiracy began in 1994 after Tyson plant managers had trouble hiring cheap legal help for its poultry plants.

If convicted, Tyson could face millions in fines and the loss of government contracts. The jury also will decide the amount of any financial gain from using illegal workers.
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Quote:
Jammer, nobody hires an illegal unless they are negligent in their processes.

A popular fallacy, but a fallacy, nonetheless.
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For $16.00 dollars a SS# and matching signature I can do a background check on you for the last ten years and determine your status real quick. I owned a business and believe me it can be done and any employer who chooses not to is willfully ignoring the laws of this country..

C
 
I dont know if this has be said already cause I havn't read all 5 pages but....

A way to stop illegal immigration is to stop our govt from supporting them.
I remember hearing about it on the news a while ago but Montgomery County in MD and another county in Northern VA took city tax dollars to build shelters for illegal workers. This was their plan to stop the workers from standing in front of the local 7-11 or the like and harassing pedestrians. Now they have a place to get out of the weather so they can relax while they wait for under the table work to drive by and pick them up. :banghead:

I may be way off, but thats how I remember it.

jmho

Andy
 
That's part of the problem with the American system. Because of rights, it is no ones business to know that they are illegal immigrants, what they are doing there, or whether their activities are legal, barring some drug bust or something. Who picks them up or why is no ones business. It is easy enough for the police to establish that they are not loitering per se, they have a reason to be there and it's temporary, but 7-11 should be allowed to ask them to congregate somewhere else. If really day workers, I reject the part about harassing pedestrians as someones embellishment of the facts. With half a brain, they are going to keep a low profile.

Yes, it is aggravating, but consider that those workers contribute to the city's sales tax revenue, probably enough to easily cover a small pole barn shelter. Any solution to the essential problem will come from a much higher level. Knowing all the circumstances, you might find that you do not have a better idea for that scenario, at least not one likely to be acceptable.

Again, you can't tell if they are people with rights, because there is no entitlement to ask them for their papers. So far, there is no Gestapo, and it wouldn't just be reserved for little brown people. You have to stop them at the border or make it economically difficult for them to stay here. Once there are too many for it to be practical to do much about it, you have to go to plan B and start legalizing them under certain conditions.
 
For $16.00 dollars a SS# and matching signature I can do a background check on you for the last ten years and determine your status real quick. I owned a business and believe me it can be done and any employer who chooses not to is willfully ignoring the laws of this country.
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What would that total out to if you had a hundred workers? Among businessmen, that's what's known as an "unfunded mandate". The solution is simple, and taught in business classes everywhere. (Hint: it doesn't involve a $16 per head fee, a $2 per head fee, or any other fee.)

Oh, wait, sorry. I missed the tense.

It all fits, now.

Cops have badges and shiny blue suits, and they don't pay for the privilage, they ARE paid. Refusing to pay to be a cop isn't negligence.

What was your business? Are you looking for a job? :cool:

Well, Jammer, we weren't really discussing jailing employers who made a mistake, that was you who tried to lead the discussion off in that direction.
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Not leading it anywhere. I made my point, with everyone's help.

I'm aware that it is much more comforting to blame businessmen, the government, and any other available "them", so I knew that no one here was going to listen.

The point was simple, did you catch it?
 
This debate has now been rendered moot. The Mexican illegals have just announced that they are going to strike on May 1st not go to work and shut this country down.

The internet will probably not work
Congress will not work (same as always)
All stores across the USA will be closed
All home construction in USA will be delayed by 1 hr (actual work loss time)
No gas available
There is a chance the Sun will not work…so just darkness

Or Not
I always have liked living on the edge so I think I will take a chance and just do normal things on May 1st.
 
Illegals Plan May 1st Strike

The Mexican Illegals have just announced that they will have a work strike on May 1st and “shutdown” (their words, not mine) this country.

So be prepared!

Stock-up on water, gas, food, batteries, etc.

If you are having a home built (like me) be prepared for a 1 hr. delay (adjusted 8hr work day) in construction.

The good news is:
Free medical services for illegals not paying taxes will remain open.
 
Illegals huh? Well I think the Border Patrol and Customs should attend the strike locations. Set up shop right there complete with Greyhound busses with a direct drive back to the port of entry!
 
:D
If you are having a home built (like me) be prepared for a 1 hr. delay (adjusted 8hr work day) in construction.
:D :what:
 
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