im an anti w/ questions

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Hi James, welcome to The High Road and more importantly, welcome back. I've been following this thread with awe and amazement that comes from the fact that no matter how many times I visit THR the folks on this board N-E-V-E-R cease to raise the bar on intelligent discourse and civility. This comes as a stark contrast to the "welcome" some THR folk have gotten on some of the more liberal boards. I hope you find the answers you're looking for, but if not here, then where?

Stay safe.
 
I love to see a group of intelligent, open-minded adults having a clean discussion. Everyone should give themselves a pat on the back, and hold this thread as the example of our goal here at THR.
 
James:

Welcome to The High Road. Not much that I can add to the discussions here, as those things have been eloquently covered. I will; however, take the liberty to include my perspectives, and a bit of my history.

I was undecided about owning/shooting in my [sometimes mis-spent] youth, but I did start hunting around age 16. I remember the lessons in the price of liberty and freedom learned at my Dad's knee, a WWII Army infantryman, recipient of a Silver Star in the Pacific Theatre, and my grandfather, a WWI "Doughboy".

As I matured, I worked as an Auxillary Reserve Deputy Sheriff for a few years, 25+ years back. I saw even then that 'The Police' simply cannot be everywhere all the time, and you need to be able to defend yourself. I was bailed out of a couple of really sticky spots by armed citizens, have been the 'last man standing" in several cases of shots fired, and thank you for asking, but I respectfully decline to elaborate on those incidents.

I have been the victim of violent crime more times that I would really care to mention, but will cite a few...Awakened at 5:30 one Sunday morning buy a group of Bad Guys in my bedroom. I was bound and tossed to the floor, and could only witness unspeakable acts committed against wife by this gang. I have been "rolled" an an Interstate rest stop, forced to the floor in a c-store armed robbery, mugged at a bus stop, one attempted car jacking, and several other attempted break-ins. I even caught a guy trying to steal the battery out of my car when I left work early one morning.

I live in what I consider to be a very good neighborhood, but I still lock my cars in the garage, check all doors and windows before going to bed, and check my motion detector lights about once a week.

In closing, James, good luck to your and yours, stay safe and be vigilant. The next crime may be intended against you.

As good as my local city police department is, I would not count on them being 2 doors down the street when I REALLY needed them. My home is a 10-minute normal drive from the PD, but there are also 2 sets of railroad tracks in between.
 
James,

I'll have to admit, I've never spoken to a person who claimed to be an "anti-gunner", but didn't want to governmentally-ban firearms or certain types of firearms. People who are willing to argue their likes and dislikes without saying that their feelings on a subject should be legislated into law are rare, and we are far more used to the anti-gunners that are willing to use government as an instrument of their will.

Basically, what you are saying, is that you prefer not to use or be around firearms, and that you might even wish to persuade others to hold your same opinion, but you would not want to force others to accept your opinion of firearms and give up their use of them. I can accept that, although I would argue the benefits of changing your opinion. I feel much like Mr. Ross expressed above, that arguing against learning to use the most effective means of defending yourself and your loved ones is like arguing against learning to read. Just as not wanting to learn to read or refusing to read anything whatsoever would be extremely detrimental to a person, or even going so far as to censor books so that others cannot read them; not wanting to learn or refusing to use firearms would be just as detrimental. Not learning to read or refusing to read would largely rob a person of the ability to learn from or to communicate with others, not learning to use or refusing to use firearms would largely rob a person of the ability to defend themselves and their loved ones.
 
Virtually every person such as James who has concerns about the Second Amendment (or in some other cases, outright hate for it) fully respects the First Amendment.

In particular, good honest investigative journalists regardless of their political orientation are highly respected people. We also have a lot of laws on the books specifically to make their jobs easier, such as public access to campaign finance records, laws supporting public access to government records (Federal Freedom Of Information Act (FOIA) or state-level equivelent) and the like.

But, what happens when amateur or professional activists/journalists actually *use* such laws, and run into a crook? Especially when they investigate law enforcement, in states where access to legal gun carry ("CCW") permits are under the personal control of sheriffs and police chiefs?

In Alabama, a professional investigative journalist ran head-on into this question, and posted the following:

I am a local journalist in Alabama, and I am a CCW holder. Although, that may change if I have to renew the my license with my local sheriff. (Follow the link and read my story to find out what I mean.The story will be up for one week. It will be removed on midnight Wednesday, May 16.)

The article in question was titled "Deputy is violating law - Mayor pardons deputy..."

Source:

http://www.packing.org/news/article.jsp/3508

Here in California, I investigate the wrongdoing committed by sheriffs and police chiefs in the handling of CCW permits issued on a "discretionary basis".

In 1994, Sacramento County sheriff's deputies busted a drunk name of James Colafrancesco, who threatened somebody with a gun in a verbal argument over a parking spot. While arresting him, they realized he was a construction company executive and holder of one of the rare CCW permits issued by their own sheriff; in questioning him about the permit, Colafrancesco answered:

"It is all political. It is a big political game. I am a major contributor of Lou Blanas [then UnderSheriff, now Sheriff] and Glen Craig [Sheriff at that time], and they gave me a concealed weapons permit. They told me not to screw around, and not to mess it up, and I have tried real hard not to. You can call Mo Bailey [#3 man in the department]. You can call Lou Blanas. They know I am a good guy. They know that I would never point my gun at anyone."

Actual scanned police report on the incident:
http://www.equalccw.com/colafrancescopapers.pdf

Naturally, that got my attention. So over the last couple of years, several activists in this field have filed California Public Records Act Requests for the CCW issuance records by this sheriff. All were ignored, including mine, and including a request by NRA attorney Chuck Michel.

Then I got an interesting idea - I hooked up with a local reporter for a small paper, explained what was up, and got HIM to file a request, on the assumption that the sheriff would take a reporter more seriously.

Sure enough, the reporter's request netted at least a partial list of the sheriff's permitholders - 250 names.

I ran those names past sheriff Blanas' campaign contribution records, and came up with $105,000 in direct links between the permitholders and his campaign financing, another $75k or so in "indirect links" (family, business associated of campaign contributors scoring the permits).

I showed that to the reporter...who then chickened out of any follow-up inquiries or reporting on the subject.

Now, do you understand why I'm showing you these cases?

It's because you do not have any first amendment rights unless you also have the right to self defense. While speaking out is your right, it can also get you killed. You therefore need to be able to "lock'n'load" to meet the potential threat and if the threat is serious enough, an AR15/M16/AK47 or similar "battle rifle" could very well be a sane part of your preparations.

That's why the Bill Of Rights was written as a unit. Each right bolsters and supports the others. The right to free speech allows criticism of crooks in government; the right to arms gives you the right to SURVIVE making such criticism.

Lookit: the rise of civilized, limited government came about during the era of guns. This wasn't an accident. Guns allow the common man to rise up against a rotten government; without guns, the people are at the mercy of a professional warrior class. Study Japanese history for a horrifying look at where that leads: in the Samurai period, members of the warrior class had the right to kill anyone of any other class, on a whim. There was actually a term used for the practice of testing your brand new sword on the first peasant that walked by. While admittedly uncommon, just the fact that there was a NAME for that is one hell of a good reason not to give governments a monopoly on force!!!

Finally, be very wary of anybody eager to pass a law to disarm you or take action to that effect. They are NOT your friends.

In 1873, a group of local police in Louisiana disarmed local blacks, led by a cop name of Cruikshank. Rather than tell you what happened next, I'll quote from the official US Congress constitutional history page:

The Supreme Court decided the case of United States v. Cruikshank in 1876. The case grew out of a brutal massacre of blacks in the little Louisiana town of Colfax.

In Colfax whites burned the court house and murdered an unknown number of blacks. After the U.S. Army restored order, a federal grand jury indicted 72 white men. The United States Attorney brought nine to trial and won a conviction against William Cruikshank and two others.

Normally the federal government does not prosecute persons charged with murder. Control of ordinary crime has traditionally been the job of the states. In this case the U.S. Attorney used the 1870 Enforcement Act. This law makes it a crime for two or more persons to band together with intent to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any citizen.

The Supreme Court threw out the convictions of Cruikshank and his cohorts. As it had in the Slaughterhouse Cases, the Court acted to protect states' power. "Every republican government," Chief Justice Morrison Remick Waite wrote, "is in duty bound to protect all its citizens." He then added, "That duty was originally assumed by the States; and it still remains there."

Source:

http://www.constitutioncenter.org/sections/history/19th.asp

If it's not clear yet: Cruikshank and his co-conspirators clearly violated the black's rights to arms under the 2nd Amendment, in order to violate their 1st Amendment right to free speech, their 14th Amendment right to equal protection and their 15th Amendment right to vote. And according to the US Supreme Court in 1876, only a state could put a stop to it. This decision ensured the Klan would have free reign for generations.

But gun control isn't racist today, is it?

In California, where gun carry permits are of the aforementioned "discretionary" type, your odds of obtaining a CCW permit vary radically by county. If you're in the half of the state with a county-level black population below the state average number of blacks, your odds of having a permit and a gun legally concealed on your person are five times higher than if you're a resident of a county with a black population above the state average. See also this page for the data and statistical breakdown:

http://www.equalccw.com/ccwdata.html

In 1995, the Fresno Bee newspaper tallied up the 2,500 CCW permits in that county and analyzed them for Hispanic last names; they found a 3% Latino permit issuance rate in a county that is 44% Hispanic per US census data.

Full text of the story:

http://www.equalccw.com/fresnobee.html

In conclusion: nobody that wants to disarm you is your friend. Government attracts personalities that desire control over other people, and stripping people of self defense is the ultimate expression of that control. Every single effort to eliminate self defense is a violation of basic human rights and there are an increasing number of people who realize it, and will fight that FIRST by any possible legal/political means.
 
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why is it that...

Why is it that when a new person, particularly, an anti-gun person, like James here comes along, THR gets busy like an anthill where a big fat worm just dropped on to? :D

James wrote:
My take on all of this was just that I dont have a gun and couldnt think of a reason why Id ever really need or want one.

Lets do a little bit of roleplaying, James. Let us say that you were with your lady friend/significant other. Minding your own business, walking down the street from a restaurant where you had a good filet mignon/caesar salad, to your favorite mode of transportation. You happen to spot a few unsavory characters that happen to be headed in your direction. You cannot read minds, so you do not know if they just want your wallet/money, or if they want your lady friend for some 'fun', or if they just want you to play 'punching bag' with.

Do you...
A) Run away as fast as you can, nevermind that your lady friend/significant other is in high heels, or is just recuperating from an injured leg.
B) Dial 9-1-1 from your cellphone, which takes about 3 seconds, plus the time the 9-1-1 operator needs to answer your call, ask you your location, dispatch a patrol unit (approaching 8 minutes).
C) Give them what they want, and hope that it stops at the wallet, and not your dignity, or your life.

If you consider yourself someone that positively contributes to society, why should you meekly allow yourself to be injured/killed by others that negatively contribute to society? Does doing so seem logical?
 
I would like to wake up one morning and wander out to the mailbox to get my copy of "America's First Freedom" and find the centerfold article in that magazine this very link.

As one who always has a LOT to say about EVERYTHING, I defer to the wisdom I have just read here today.

America is in good hands my friends. Y'all are really special and define the difference between reasonable folk and the rest of the litter. I salute you all.

Dick Besser:D :D :D :D
 
Grampster

I second that salute!

The depth of the collective wisdom on this board is simply amazing. Y’all done good folks.

Ladies and Gentlemen I am extremely proud to be a humble member of your company!
 
Welcome to The High Road, James.

There's little that I can add that hasn't been already addressed. However, to your concern about your brother's purchase of an AK-47 variant: it may well be that he bought it because he saw it in a movie.

More than one member of this forum, including me, has done that. If he enjoys it, he'll probably keep it. If he doesn't, he probably sell it and buy something else.

It's just like any other hobby, except that the gun hobby also affords one the ability to defend himself and others. Try that with baseball cards. ;)
 
To touch on the movie influence:

Many of my favorite guns are ones I had toy models of when I was younger or saw in the movies.

I remember I had a plastic 1911, 92F, Mp5, AR-15 and Mac-10.

I have seen those guns in the movies a lot, and have always been a huge fan of the 92f, mostly due to Die Hard and Lethal Weapon.

My first firearms purchased were a Mossberg mod. 88 pump (have to have a shottie, and it came with a PG-only attachment...had one of those as a toy too! :D ) and a blued Beretta 96, just like the one I fell in love with from the movies. Well, ok, in the movies they use the 9mm 92f, but I wanted the larger .40. :)

What is wrong with that? I sure as heck don't use my guns irresponsibly like they do in the movies, and most any member of this forum could teach ANY film producer volumes about many different aspects of firearms.

I'm very safe with my guns, so why does it matter if I was influenced to buy them by movies?

Would you think it odd if I was influenced to buy a car because of a movie?
 
All walks of life, different beliefs, different ethnicities, different socioeconomic backgrounds, different talents, yet... UNITED!

I am a proud member of The High Road.

The Truth and The Will are unstoppable when united!
 
but is everyone out there really so paranoid that the government is going to come along one day, become a corrupt dictatorship, and kill everyone who opposes it?

Yes. They might start by holding people in jail without disclosing their whereabouts and/or starting a war on the fraudulent say-so of one man.

in addition, what are the chances of a foreign invasion (much less one that our military couldn't defend against on its own)? as proven on 9-11 by the passengers on board the plane that crashed in pennsylvania, you don't need a gun on airplanes.

Sure, if you don't mind crashing in a hellacious fireball!
I prefer to shoot the hijackers and then land normally.

MR
 
I would like to wake up one morning and wander out to the mailbox to get my copy of "America's First Freedom" and find the centerfold article in that magazine this very link.

As one who always has a LOT to say about EVERYTHING, I defer to the wisdom I have just read here today.

America is in good hands my friends. Y'all are really special and define the difference between reasonable folk and the rest of the litter. I salute you all.

Dick Besser
Right on, Grampster!
 
I stand corrected!

My apologies. I'm glad James has replied. I would've just felt awful if all this EXCELLENT info was just being 'preached to the choir'

:neener:

carry on!
 
A MUCH more vociferous and developed thread; yet why does it remind me of "Wyld one"???? What happened; where is she?:confused:

BTW; Welcome, James. You have found America; Freedom with Responsibilities. Enjoy.:cool:
 
Man, what a long winded bunch...........;)

Why do i need guns?

Because it's my right and I enjoy owning & shooting them.

Can you hear me now?

12-34hom.
 
James,


This is another view on the Second Amendment by a naturalized citizen:

"The Second Amendment is a doomsday provision, one designed for those exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights have failed—where the government refuses to stand for reelection and silences those who protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake a free people get to make only once. " -- Justice Alex Kozinski, US 9th Circuit Court, 2003

If you check out the judge's background...it will make an even greater impression.
 
“My excellent colleagues have forgotten these bitter lessons of history. The prospect of tyranny may not grab the headlines the way vivid stories of gun crime routinely do. But few saw the Third Reich coming until it was too late.â€

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/5/7/94802.shtml

http://www.bpnews.net/bpfeature.asp?ID=982

He's from Eastern Europe. And a Reagan appointee to the Ninth.

Damned shame Reagan couldn't have packed that court with his intellectual brethren.

Justice Kozinski is a beacon of hope for the states under the thrall of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. May he live long and prosper.
 
Wow. 5 pages of responses in 24 hours, 8 pages in 36. I'm impressed. I'm not sure what I could say, that hasn't been said already. So, I'll say this. I own guns, and desire to get more, because it's fun, and I want to be prepared (I'm an old Boy Scout too) for whatever I might need to use one for.

I too, will gladly take you, or anyone else out to the range. Then again, I've only got 2 .22's (so far), but ya gotta start somewhere!(and I certainly don't mind buying the ammo! :D)

edit: first post on page 8! :)
 
It's all been said....

But welcome to the forum, James:)

If possible. take up some of the offers of shooting and see what we're about:) You'll find a fascinating cross-section of genuinely interesting people through the shooting sports. I've been shooting since age 6 (that's 48 years now!) and have made many lifelong friends through an interest in firearms and the associated desire to promote individual liberty.

Welcome to John Ross also:D

There are several copies of "Unintended Consequences" making their rounds through the shooting community out here in Australia.

Thank you for a thoroughly enjoyable and insightful work;)
 
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