I'm rich, at least according to the Democrats.

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Well some government workers came around and 'identified' the kids who didn't have any lunches, so gave them all free government lunches. All except the kids who brought their own lunches, so my father and his family continued to eat their crusts of cornbread while the children of "sorry" but wealthier families go free hot meals.

To this day the system still rewards poor character and learned helplessness rather than true need.

You only think the government gives out free lunches.
These lunches are paid for by taxes that someone paid. More likely, and what some here espouse, they are paid by people that someone in government thinks are being paid too much, or have too much.
What do you think would happen to these people if they said that they do not want to pay for these free lunches?

Also, if you reward poor character and bad behavior, what do you get?
What do you get when you penalize good behavior?
 
Mark Tyson

Need is not that alien of a concept. We all prioritize things. You're not going to buy another gun if you can't afford to pay the rent or groceries. Once you've taken care of the necessities of day to day survival you can worry about getting a college degree and stuff like that.

You completely missed the point of the previous quote.

The point was that on a pro-gun board, where people are stigmatized for their ownership of guns by anti-gun people who has as one of their reasons to curb the right to keep and bear arms is that you DON'T NEED A GUN.
 
Gordon Fink:
Now, this is not entirely true. The working poor still pay payroll taxes, even if they don’t earn enough to owe income taxes. And everyone, including the “welfare queens,†pays sales taxes.

See my post on paage 2.

They may pay them, but then they get it back times 2 on or before April 15th.

:cuss:

Smoke
 
So, seeing as how they benefit greatly, they can contribute a little something to the general welfare. I don't see what's so horrible about that.

You mean like creating wealth for others by providing employment opportunities for them, either directly in a company they own or manage, or indirectly, via their spending. All the houses, cars, planes, yachts, expensive clothes and meals, vacations, etc. purchased by the wealthy put money in the pockets of some builder (and carpenters, electricians, plumbers), car salesman (as well as factory workers, engineer, detailer, etc.), aircraft broker (not to mention factory worker, engineer, etc.), you get the picture. Capitalism in action, IOW.

Socialism takes the money from all the people who might have benefited as mentioned above and gives it to those who do not create wealth because they produce nothing and take everything. Every dollar taken from the rich to support these people is a poor return on investment, no matter that the poor do spend this money, since as described previously, they don't stimulate the economy in the same way an employed productive person does.
 
Mark Tyson

The Marxists thought public education was a good idea, therefore it's a bad idea. I assume you want to abolish the federal reserve too. Right? That's your argument? I think we should judge a policy on its own merits, not what Marx & company thought.
I want to abolish the federal Department of Education. There is no Constitutional authority for that department to exist in the first place.

When I was a kid, I went to school in CA and they were number one in the nation. Now they are forty-ninth. The experiments with new math and whole word recognition reading were abject failures and gave us a generation who couldn't do math and couldn't read.

Education needs to be turned back to the states and the feds need to get out of the education business. The "no child left behind" program is actually a "no child allowed to proceed" program; and it holds back the brightest and best at the level of the dullest and worst.

The government thinks that throwing money at education will be like fertilizer to get the kids to grow a brain. In Ohio, a judge kept upping the ante until the school district was spending something like thirteen thousand dollars per year per child and they still couldn't get the results the judge thought they should be getting. He finally backed off and sanity returned.

There are just some kids who can't, or won't, learn; no matter how much money you throw at them.
 
Kerry thinks he can tax the rich with no result other than an increase in the government coffers.

Remember the "luxury tax"?

Remember how the rich simply stopped buying new boats, planes, cars, etc.?

Remember how Beechcraft nearly went out of business and had to lay off nearly 75% of its workforce?

Remember how other companies suffered the same fate?

Remember how they got spending back on track?

They repealed the "luxury tax"!

Lower taxes promote growth.

Lower taxes promote spending.

Lower taxes discourage sheltering money.

Lower taxes encourage investment.

Lower taxes raise government revenue.

Kennedy knew it.

Reagan knew it.

Bush knows it.

Kerry doesn't have a clue.
 
his point is that it is a bad thing when the government has a tax cut and 90% of it goes into the pockets of the rich

Then maybe you should not have a system of taxation that confiscates 90% of total tax burden from the top income earners.

Ok, I can see that you obviously have no clue how our current Marxist system works but the fact is that you pay disproportionately to how much you earn. If you rent a video at Blockbuster and get a rebate of 1 free rental for every 10 times you rent, who is going to get more rebates, the person who never rents a video or the person who rents 100 videos within a month?

The "rich" pay FAR more on taxes, so if the govt were to refund everyone 10% of what they paid in taxes who would recieve the most in that refund, the person who paid nothing or the person who paid 200k in taxes alone?

And 200,000/year may or may not be "rich" depending on where you live. In the Bay Area (where the average home costs $650k), it's only slightly upper middle class. In Alabama, you could have the governor waxing your car

Congradulations, you just figuered out another reason why our Marxist system is putrid, cause it does not take into account your cost of living, which I notice cause I live in one of the highest cost areas of the country, but do I get a tax-break cause I have to pay FAR more than what someone in Alabama pays to live? No.

What about the amount of time you put into earning your living? Is the guy who worked 90 hours a week taxed less than the guy who works 30 hours a week if they both earn 100k/year? No, all that matters is their income, regardless of what they've sacrificed to achieve it.

The point is that it is morally bankrupt in the middle of the worst economic collapse since 1929 to give most of the money to people who already have all the disposable income they need, while the majority of Americans are feeling real pain.

Ok, so what's the real issue here, is it the fact that there is too high a tax burden on the "middle class" or is it that the wealthy get more from the tax break than the "middle class"? If taxes are cut accross the board by 10% the "middle class" will benefit from that tax cut, so why would you be opposed to helping the middle class out with that tax cut?

I tihnk Melvin Udall said it best, "It;s not that you had it bad, it's that you're that pissed that so many others had it good". Nothing more than jealously and envy is what your philosophy is based on.

That big fat tax cut Bush handed to your boss was paid for with borrowed money.

True, cause the govt is spending far more than it's taking in. No problem, I've got a giant cleaver that I'll pu to the Federal Budget, would you like to join me in where we'll begin hacking so that spending will be lower that revenues?

Rich people should quit bitching about paying taxes and be glad they are rich.

So I assume from that beautiful women should not compain about being raped?

It does not automatically mean they should receive more tax cut

Wake up, they pay disproportionately more, why shouldn't they get more back?

if they are not the ones who need it

Need? To be defined by whom and by what criteria?

and (more importantly) are not the ones who would pump it straight back into disposable goods and cause actual economic growth.

So a "rich" person who buys another car is not causing economic growth? Tell that to the factory line worker at Ford who gets laid off cause they're cutting a shift due to that evil rich person having less disposable income cause the govt stole it from him. Well, I guess you're creating work for some govt parasite who now gets to oversee some useless/destructive program created with the fruits of the rich's labor. Bravo!!!
 
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Like it or not guys and you can spin it any fashion you want but we are
changing to a new America, rich, working poor, and poverty..Those of you
younger then say 45 will see some very hard times as I just do not see a
leader strong enough to go against all the special interest groups to get
us out of this mess.
:(
 
This thread is absolutely incredible. Pretty much everyone here is pro-2A but, when it comes to their own wallets, screw the rest.

"Then you are in the correct party. Rich people should pay more taxes because it's fair.... they still have more money left after paying taxes."

Okey dokey. The gun is at your head now. Give me half of what's in your wallet or I'll blow your head off. That's fair. You'll still have more money left than my crack buddies.

It would seem that principle is one of the rarest commodities on earth.
 
Attention Communists (Hell, you've outed yourselves!)

I suggest you all voluntarily pay extra taxes this year as a show of good faith. Either you believe, or you're just talking. Put up or shut up.
 
This may be an abstract concept to a republican, but among the great poor masses, we often did without things we NEEDED because there was no money

Again, if we lowered taxes accross the board the "middle class" would benefit, so why are you opposed to them getting a tax cut?

Also, did it ever occur to you why the "poor" are poor and why the "rich" are not? The rich make their money work for them while the poor squander their money on cigarettes, booze, and hookers. If I had a dime for every factory worker that blows their wages on Sat. night at the bar...

Me thinks that they'd be better off if you taught them how to grow thier wealth instead of throwing it away on nonsense that they'd be better off, but would you actually feel better about yourself if that was the case?

I guess that must be it... all those millions of people are engaged in a liberal conspiracy to promote the lie that Bush's tax cut didn't save the economy.

No, tax cuts do not right all wrongs, as there are still mountains of govt taxation and regulation that strangle our economy. They're a temporary shot in the arm, that's all, but I'll take what I can get.

Graduated taxation is not punitive

Remind me to introduce you to the scores of people I know who have cut back on their working hours because it's not worth their time to be taxed ontheir efforts at so great a level.

It's done because the more you prosper, the more you ought to give back to society.

What did they take from society in order to necessitate them "giving back"? If they earned their imcome through honest trade they placed a burden on no one and therefore owe not anyone?

You know - society - all those other people out there who make wealth and capitalism possible

Society, whatever that is, does not make that possible, property rights do.
 
This may be an abstract concept to a republican, but among the great poor masses, we often did without things we NEEDED because there was no money

:banghead:

Been there, done that, worked hard, climbed the ladder, not there anymore. Ok!

Most people that I hear complaining assumed they would take their dad's place at the (___) fill in the blank or that they would live in the same town forever and get to keep the same job regardless of the fact that it is not profitable.

Yes, some are trying harder, but it's time for some to try smarter. Look beyond the status quo and you might see a different path. If you don't want to seek a new path then don't expect me to pay for the failed one. That includes many members of my family. I tried to help them overcome but they refused to change with the times. They >>> CHOSE <<< to stay with the familiar hoping that someday things would get better. They do not want to pursue something new.

They have bought into the great Liberal lie..."the government creates prosperity...more specifically the Dems create it".

"Status Quo" That is why some unions are still so strong and so Democratic.
 
What did they take from society in order to necessitate them "giving back"?

They thrived in a business friendly environment composed of laws, sense of community, hard work ethic, an educated work force, etc. None of these things were created by any single entrepreneur, they were built by preceeding generations of Americans. It's that well ordered society, as John Rawls put, it in which you can prosper, and some here seem to regard this environment(society) as a free gift. Nothing is owed for its maintenance.

Society, whatever that is, does not make that possible, property rights do.

Property rights are enforced by who? You and your buddies in the LP? The CATO institute? They're enforced by the government. Government makes property rights possible.

Yeah, if modern America is a "communist" country than you should all be die-hard communists because it's been a smashing economic success.
 
Mark, you seem to be implying that there is no way to benefit "society" except by paying taxes. Please address this, because my understanding is that employing people and meeting demand by product or service benefits "society" quite obviously.

Although I'm sure some on this board would advocate it, I haven't seen anyone in this thread suggest doing away with taxes altogether. No one has said this. But surely you see that much of the money the government has control of is completely wasted. Why do you think that the "rich" can't make better use of it while still "benefitting society?"

Rick
 
It's done because the more you prosper, the more you ought to give back to society.

Don't the "rich" already give more back in the paying of taxes on the goods, property, and serivces they purchase?

Additionally, under a flat tax, the "rich" would always be "giving more back"
than the "poor".

edit: spelling
 
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Rick

Of course business owners benefit society simply by engaging in business.
I just think that often the free market isn't enough. Sometimes the rising tide doesn't lift all boats. In my opinion we need something else - a social safety net. How much of a net is something to debate, but I think we need something.
 
How much of a net is something to debate, but I think we need something.

Would this safety net include work programs where the poor are made to provide service for their benefits?
 
Just got here from a post on the Muzzleloaders Hide, but I've been reading this thread with interest, so had to put in my $.02.

There have been many references to the jobs lost in this plummeting economy. Who and how is this information gathered? If so many jobs have been lost, how come the unemployment rate seems to be significantly better than what I would expect it to be?

I live in Ohio, where it really is hard to tell the difference between the politicians in the two parties. That may be why I get so confused as to who is the "good" guy and who isn't.
 
Would this safety net include work programs where the poor are made to provide service for their benefits?

On the surface, this sounds fair, but we don't just want to create jobs in the government for the sake of providing employment. I think it would be better to just get them back into the work force (and paying taxes) as fast as possible. The time they spend working for the government in exchange for unemployment benefits could be spent looking for a job(they may have family commitments too). But maybe there's a way to make it work, so let me think about it.
 
Mark Tyson

I just think that often the free market isn't enough. Sometimes the rising tide doesn't lift all boats.
That is because they are firmly tied to the government dock. They stand on their boat and hold out their hand. The politicians fill that hand to buy their vote.
In my opinion we need something else - a social safety net. How much of a net is something to debate, but I think we need something.
We had a social safety net but abrogation and abdication eliminated it. That social safety net was the church and the charities that existed throughout America. Government moved in and abrogated that responsibility and the churches and charities abdicated it to them.

The churches and charities would hold out a helping hand that would give temporary relief to those who needed it. The government came along and made charity their vocation for life. They gave no incentive to those they "helped" because the cornucopia was neverending. The churches and charities forced those people to take up the charge for their own lives because they knew that there was just so much they would do before the free ride ran out.

There was a time when people actually pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps. Those days are gone; and the next generation is ready to grab the brass ring for the next free ride.
 
Government makes property rights possible

Mark, you're right. Since capitalism cannot flourish without govt enforcement of property rights I should pay for my fair share. Take the total amount that is needed to fund police, courts, prisons, and national defense, divide that by how many adults are in the country and give me a bill. I'll gladly pay it.

As for your glorious welfare state, I dont need that for capitalism so I have no use for it. I'll contribute to my charities and you contribute to yours.
 
The meaning of economic freedom is this: that the individual is in a position to choose the way in which he wants to integrate himself into the totality of society. -Ludwig von Mises in Human Action




My goodness. This thread is sick. Disgusting to the nth degree. I come from a poor family, yet I have risen through the ranks in just a few short years. This summer, when my peers were on summer break, I was working 70 hours per week. I got every other Sunday off since I worked for a bank and an investment firm. This is all in preparation for a career that I should be embarking on in May with a holding company. It is not uncommon to work with such a company and make over $300K/year. The owner of the company can make upwards of $2M/year. These people work very hard and consistently make good decisions regarding their financial future. Simply because they earn such large sums of money, some of you people think they owe more of a debt to society than some guy who digs ditches? The dig ditcher's end product is a ditch, these guys at the holding company buy businesses which provide the average working American with a job. If there were not concerned American affluents , these factories and businesses would simply be non-existent. The staunch and ethically upright capitalist is the catalyst that drives an economy. To believe that somehow their debt to society is more than say person who fries donuts every morning is ridiculous. Quite simply, the do-nots of the world owe society more than anyone since in a less forgiving time they probably would be starving to death for their lack of ambition. We all have our economic heros, mine are the people that work at the holding company, my good friend at Merrill Lynch, and men like jimpeel. People that have the drive and the balls to actually do something with their given situations instead of holding out the bowl waiting for it to be filled with soup.


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And P.S.: Glockler is destroying all of your arguements. Why don't you even reply to half the things that he says? Because you know he's right.
 
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