clutch
Contributing Member
Do you have a state issued drivers license? If so and you have a couple w2's with the same address, that should prove something.
Clutch
Clutch
Improper proof of residency??
- Thread starter spelsh
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dogtown tom
Member
It proves nothing and would not be acceptable.
Read the instructions on a 4473. ATF does a darned good job of telling the buyer and dealer exactly what is required.
ErikO
Member
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ErikO
Member
I disagree. My wife got denied due to not having a state-issued hunting permit. For a Ruger 22/45, a gun she could NOT legally hunt ANYTHING with in Missouri.Dogtown Tom said:
The BATFE does not really have good folks on the phone all the time...and she filled the form out based upon the instructions printed on the form. We had a utility bill that had her name on it and her Alien Registration card (she's a Canadian)
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That's correct ... been there many times since 1974. The law states 90 days proof of stable residence back from the date of purchase. Most folks will accept three monthly utility bills BUT, a really picky FFL will check the dates on those. Depending upon the vagaries of the billing cycles, 3 bills might only cover 87 days or whatever. Additionally, some vendors (the local Cabela's) insist that all 3 bills be from the same utility, even tho that's not a fed requirement.
I just routinely keep a copy of the last 4 gas bills and a photostat of the FOID (IL specific) and DL in the car ... never know when you'll wander into a store and a gun will try to jump into your pocket!
/Bryan
If your wife needed a hunting license, it sounds like she must be a non-permanent resident (nonimmigrant alien in ATF speak). She won't need a hunting license if she gets a "green" card.
In general non-permanent residents are not allowed to buy firearms. There are several exceptions, having a hunting license the most common and practical. No hunting license, no gun, whether you actually plan to hunt or not.
More details on nonimmigrant aliens:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2008-11.pdf
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fehhkk
Member
Just submit something with more proof than a mobile phone, like others have said, a paystub should be pretty good evidence.
I'm a legal permanent resident as well, and haven't had any issue getting my guns while providing 3 months of electric bills.
I'm a legal permanent resident as well, and haven't had any issue getting my guns while providing 3 months of electric bills.
And your point is? The OP says he's a permanent U.S. resident. I asked if he had a driver's license.
A driver's license may well be all you have ever been asked for. But the OP is not a US citizen and I assumed you were.
MD_Willington
Member
I get the same thing, LPR, from Canada too...
I take the following when I purchase a firearm:
Mortgage statement (physical address).
Utility bill (internet service @ physical address).
Pay Stub (contains physical address).
Still get an "Alien In Question" hold on my purchase, though it usually clears overnight or within a few hours.
Splesh... BTW, you keep your Canadian residency, even as a Naturalized US citizen, The Canadian government considers you a Canuck until you pay some one @ .gov.ca to make you "Not a Canuck", works the same way with the UK...
As soon as I have $700 I'm getting my US Citizenship!
I take the following when I purchase a firearm:
Mortgage statement (physical address).
Utility bill (internet service @ physical address).
Pay Stub (contains physical address).
Still get an "Alien In Question" hold on my purchase, though it usually clears overnight or within a few hours.
Splesh... BTW, you keep your Canadian residency, even as a Naturalized US citizen, The Canadian government considers you a Canuck until you pay some one @ .gov.ca to make you "Not a Canuck", works the same way with the UK...
As soon as I have $700 I'm getting my US Citizenship!
Finally have an update. Went to a differen't shop yesterday afternoon. They did not have any problems with the phone bills. Got the call at 10:30 this morning that we were good to go!
Picked up a couple differen't ammo types to run through it this week! Thanks everyone
MD Willington: I know the law changed a few years ago and now dual citizenship is now an option. At some point in the future, I will make a decision on attaining US Citizenship
Picked up a couple differen't ammo types to run through it this week! Thanks everyone
MD Willington: I know the law changed a few years ago and now dual citizenship is now an option. At some point in the future, I will make a decision on attaining US Citizenship
Zach S
Member
This is true. I went through this when trying to get my TN driver's license.
Oddly enough, my credit card bill and bank statement were sufficient.
Mine were too, although they had the physical address on them as well.
Hit the same thing this weekend. Found a LGS that had a Sig P220 Compact that I've been looking at. Went down, liked it, started filling out all the paperwork and mentioned that we moved it a new place 2 weeks ago(about 5 miles away).
Me being dumb put the new address on the paperwork(even though we still own both the previous address as well).
Store came back saying they needed proof of residence, which I understand. However the *only* thing they would accept is a government id with the new address. The only thing I've updated is my bank statements
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Utility bill, tax assessment, mortgage statement none of it will work for them. So now I have to wait however long it'll take me to get my new DL sorted out before I can go pick it up.
Me being dumb put the new address on the paperwork(even though we still own both the previous address as well).
Store came back saying they needed proof of residence, which I understand. However the *only* thing they would accept is a government id with the new address. The only thing I've updated is my bank statements
.Utility bill, tax assessment, mortgage statement none of it will work for them. So now I have to wait however long it'll take me to get my new DL sorted out before I can go pick it up
.Birch Knoll
Member
Go buy a hunting or fishing license with your new address on it.
The gun store clerk invented his own regulations at best, a dunce at worst
I don't think so. A dealer needs to be satisfied at their discretion you have lived at the residence 3 months period.
I don't know if anyone else suggested this but go to the dealer and ask them specificall what they accept rather than ask here for opinions on what he will accept. He's the one you're asking to do the transaction.
I don't think so. A dealer needs to be satisfied at their discretion you have lived at the residence 3 months period.
I don't know if anyone else suggested this but go to the dealer and ask them specificall what they accept rather than ask here for opinions on what he will accept. He's the one you're asking to do the transaction.
dogtown tom
Member
Did you ask them to read the instructions to 20.b. on the Form 4473?
You can use your old DL with alternate documentation showing your new address.
The OP provided appropriate documents per ATF to the dealer. The dealer invented his own rules at that point and refused the documentation.
Sure the dealer is free to demand anything he wants, but that isn't Federal law or ATF regulation. If the dealer required you to provide a ten page written essay, take an IQ test and demonstrate your physical finess as requirements to purchase he would be just as off base as this clown was.
The dealer/clerk is an idiot.
ATF Form 4473 tells the dealer what documents may be used to establish 90 days residency.....the dealer doesn't get to choose on his own.
I would find a different dealer.
bikemutt
Member
Something involving ATF occurred around my area in January or so this year if memory serves me. The brick and mortar FFLs would no longer accept my utility statements period, end of story. Even though it says utility bills are acceptable on 4473 itself. One B&M FFL I don't know too well just said that's the way it is. The other one who knows me since I shoot at the range said they were instructed as to the new "rules" by the FBI (his words). When this first happened he made me drive all the way back home and get the mortgage statements, apologizing for the inconvenience.
From then on I didn't even bother showing up without the mortgage statements.
From then on I didn't even bother showing up without the mortgage statements.
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GRIZ22
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The gun store clerk invented his own regulations at best, a dunce at worst
I don't think so. A dealer needs to be satisfied at their discretion you have lived at the residence 3 months period.
The OP provided appropriate documents per ATF to the dealer. The dealer invented his own rules at that point and refused the documentation.
You can have all the proper ID and the dealer can still turn you down. Doesn't make him a dunce.
Sure the dealer is free to demand anything he wants, but that isn't Federal law or ATF regulation. If the dealer required you to provide a ten page written essay, take an IQ test and demonstrate your physical finess as requirements to purchase he would be just as off base as this clown was.
The dealer/clerk is an idiot.
The dealer did not ask for any of these things so don't get ridiculous. The dealer needs to be satisfied you've met the residence requirement not any of us. the OP has already stated he doesn't have rent receipts, utilty bills, or any of the other things ATF says would be acceptable.
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I don't know if anyone else suggested this but go to the dealer and ask them specificall what they accept rather than ask here for opinions on what he will accept. He's the one you're asking to do the transaction.
ATF Form 4473 tells the dealer what documents may be used to establish 90 days residency.....the dealer doesn't get to choose on his own.
I would find a different dealer.
Please note what "may" be used. In any case the dealer needs to be satisfied on the issue before proceeding with the transfer. Calling the dealer an idiot does nothing to settle the issue. You need to ask the dealer.
GRIZ22
Quote:
The gun store clerk invented his own regulations at best, a dunce at worst
I don't think so. A dealer needs to be satisfied at their discretion you have lived at the residence 3 months period.
The OP provided appropriate documents per ATF to the dealer. The dealer invented his own rules at that point and refused the documentation.
You can have all the proper ID and the dealer can still turn you down. Doesn't make him a dunce.
Sure the dealer is free to demand anything he wants, but that isn't Federal law or ATF regulation. If the dealer required you to provide a ten page written essay, take an IQ test and demonstrate your physical finess as requirements to purchase he would be just as off base as this clown was.
The dealer/clerk is an idiot.
The dealer did not ask for any of these things so don't get ridiculous. The dealer needs to be satisfied you've met the residence requirement not any of us. the OP has already stated he doesn't have rent receipts, utilty bills, or any of the other things ATF says would be acceptable.
Quote:
I don't know if anyone else suggested this but go to the dealer and ask them specificall what they accept rather than ask here for opinions on what he will accept. He's the one you're asking to do the transaction.
ATF Form 4473 tells the dealer what documents may be used to establish 90 days residency.....the dealer doesn't get to choose on his own.
I would find a different dealer.
Please note what "may" be used. In any case the dealer needs to be satisfied on the issue before proceeding with the transfer. Calling the dealer an idiot does nothing to settle the issue. You need to ask the dealer.
I am not sure how much discretion any given ffl has, but I know that one lgs has no issue with my driver's license having a po box address and my utility bill or vehicle registration holding my street address, while another lgs would not accept the combination.
I don't know whether there is just cause to refuse these forms of id and residency, but I just assume give my money to some else in that case.
I don't know whether there is just cause to refuse these forms of id and residency, but I just assume give my money to some else in that case.
I totally spaced on looking at the 4473, thanks a ton for pointing me in that direction!
As it turns out I've got a tax assessment on the property(with my name on it), which is one of the specific examples used on the copy of the 4473 I could find. Now to just wait till they open again on Tuesday.
I'm not sure how to make this clearer than the last time I explained it, but just because it's on the 4473 does NOT mean that's the end of it. The 4473 covers FEDERAL law. The dealer has to follow STATE law in addition to Federal law.
I don't know what, if anything, Ohio requires above and beyond Federal law, but you can't say "It's on the 4473" and leave it at that. That's just not how it works.
dogtown tom
Member
Well no kidding.
Of course states may have additional regulations, but the great majority of state laws regarding a firearm transfer are in sync with Federal law.
The instructions on a 4473 WILL ALWAYS APPLY.
dprice3844444
member
file a declaration of domicile at the local courthose
I am practically in the same situation 'splesh' was in August. In my case, the dealer is refusing to accept my utility and landline phone bills, since I printed them out from my online bills from the utility company website. Apparently these are not acceptable. I have almost no paper bills that I get!
In addition, I own my residence, and even that proof of residency (the sale deed agreement) was not accepted. Any suggestions?
Thanks.
In addition, I own my residence, and even that proof of residency (the sale deed agreement) was not accepted. Any suggestions?
Thanks.
Ask the utility company to mail you your last 4 invoices ... since you went paperless, they'll probably want a few bucks to do it.
Alternatively, call BATF and ask them what you're supposed to do ... it must come up with all the pressure from banks and utilities to have everyone go paperless.
/B
Alternatively, call BATF and ask them what you're supposed to do ... it must come up with all the pressure from banks and utilities to have everyone go paperless.
/B
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