Incident at a "No Services" rest area

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First, I always research the carry laws for states I intend to travel through. Second, I never let anyone know I am carrying until I need to point and or possibly need to pull the trigger. +1 to your situational awareness.
 
I would have driven away.
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That is always the preferred solution to an iffy situation, but one has to consider (1) how far it might be to the next rest stop; (2) how long it has been since the dogs were last out, and their endurance; and (3), and this is the most important and the one requiring the most judgment, just how much of a threat two men who happened to drive into the same rest stop at the same time seemed to pose.

In retrospect, the fact that the men in the truck left on their own schedule rather than upon seeing the gun would seem to indicate that their behavior had not been inappropriate.
 
It is possible those 2 men were there to roll some unsuspecting traveler.
They may also have been there to get high, have sex, relieve themselves, or to check a map.

Your situational awareness is to be commended, as is preparing yourself for any contingency. Displaying your weapon, however, is IMO, a mistake that could have lead to you facing the local state trooper. You also surrendered your advantage of surprise. I think you should have been more discreet.
 
Kleanbore, Once holstered it was concealed by a sweatshirt. Also they didn't leave. they went half way down the exit, and waited while I walked my dogs, then followed me or several miles.
 
As you described, OP, you did as I would likely have, with one exception. While I would have left little to their imagination as to what I was doing, I would not have sought to make sure that what they saw I was putting on was a firearm.

I agree, based solely on your account, that their actions were questionable.
 
The real issue here is that the guys in the truck, as described here, did nothing overtly to indicate that their actions were in the least bit threatening. They might well have been counting or exchanging money or looking at a map or making reservations--in both locations. To use the vernacular of the "no duty to retreat" laws, they were in a place in which they had "a legal right to be."

That is not to say that the exercise of caution and observance was not extremely prudent. They might well have been contemplating an exchange of vehicles, but that is pure speculation. Arming oneself would be a very good idea, and if that were not possible, getting out fast would have been the order of the day. But showing a firearm is something that one should not do without a basis for a reasonable belief that it is necessary.

We have a discussion on that subject here.

This part of that thread is relevant to the discussion at hand.

Posted by CA Raider: consider the following possibilities:

1. you do not draw your weapon - you just leave it holstered. but you reveal that you have a weapon .... maybe by opening a shirt or lifting up the bottom of a shirt. you do not threaten anyone, but indicate that if you are attacked you can defend yourself.
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This was the answer given.

Posted by Frank Ettin: This can become a question of why, and under what circumstances, you are displaying your gun.

If you are you displaying your gun to intimidate someone, to assure that someone keeps his distance or leaves, to secure his compliance, etc., your display could well be seen as a threat. And that sure seems to be your most likely purpose in displaying your gun, at least as you've posed the question. Or are you suggesting that you're displaying your holstered gun just so someone can admire the craftsmanship of your fancy grips?

The usual definition of assault, based on the Common Law, is:
Quote:
an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact.
In the laws of some States this crime might be given another name. For example, in Alabama it's called "menacing." But by whatever name it is called, it is a crime in every State.

So a display of a firearm or telling someone you have a gun, when done for the purposes of intimidation, is, in all States, an assault of some type. You are effectively putting someone in fear of an imminent harmful or offensive contact, i. e., getting shot.
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By the way, friends who stop in rest stops more often than I do these days tell me that they have been seeing more and more in the way of suspicious-looking passers-through, and that they do not sleep in those places without someone keeping watch. I do not think it at all unreasonable to keep one's guard up.

Way up.
 
KleanBore - totally true. So Leprauchan's actions were in a "gray area". He did not draw or brandish his weapon. Just happened to show that he was carrying one. You can look at this incident from either way ... it could go in different directions. In the end, I think you've got to trust your gut in these situations.

My take is that these guys planned a vehicle robbery - probably as follows. They followed Lebrauchaun, identifying that he had a desirable vehicle, plates were out-of-state, and he was alone. They waited until he got to the rest area. If he had gone into a public restroom, they would have broken the side window of his vehicle, hotwired it, and stolen it. If that had failed, they might have taken his keys at gunpoint, and still driven off with the vehicle. That's why there were 2 perpetrators - one to drive their currrent vehicle, and one to drive the stolen vehicle. Most likely they would have avoided a shooting if they could have. But if Lebrauchaun had tried to stop them forcefully ... they would probably have shot him. especially with no-one around. he confused them when he displayed his own weapon. they were probably weighing up whether their plan would have still worked.

there is no easy anwer about whether to display a weapon, or keep it hidden. if you display it, better look like you know what you are doing - and it could keep criminals at bay.

still, all this stuff I said is just a theory. these guys could have been innocent. in which case they probably would say "Ohh crap, I'm not going to the bathroom until that guy gets out of here". BUT they wouldn't then follow him down the road again.

cheers,
CA R
 
I stopped at no less than 6 rest areas this week and saw all kinds of suspicious looking characters and never showed any of them my gun to warn 'em like a rattler shaking it's tail....I would guess I looked suspicious to many of them. None of them showed a sign of force
 
@ leprechaun 50

I stand by my last statement .

Since by YOUR OWN ADMISSION = you made sure they saw you HANDLING A LOADED FIREARM.

If explained to an LEO,that could have gotten you a night in jail.

The rest of the story was as I said it 'could' go.

If just seeing 2 men in a vehicle made you react in a MENACING manner [ that was your intent ] then what would you have done if they dared to approach you = drawn down on them ?.

It could have then resulted in a gun fight IF they were armed and felt you a real threat [ I would ].

If your actions are good to go,in your not so humble opinion,go for it.

But I go the extra mile to not be "made" while being armed.

After all,YOU could have called for a officer to check out the suspicious men who you 'felt' were casing you = EVEN THOUGH they were there first.
 
@ leprechaun 50

"I stand by my last statement .

Since by YOUR OWN ADMISSION = you made sure they saw you HANDLING A LOADED FIREARM.

If explained to an LEO,that could have gotten you a night in jail.

The rest of the story was as I said it 'could' go.

If just seeing 2 men in a vehicle made you react in a MENACING manner [ that was your intent ] then what would you have done if they dared to approach you = drawn down on them ?.

It could have then resulted in a gun fight IF they were armed and felt you a real threat [ I would ].

If your actions are good to go,in your not so humble opinion,go for it.

But I go the extra mile to not be "made" while being armed.

After all,YOU could have called for a officer to check out the suspicious men who you 'felt' were casing you = EVEN THOUGH they were there first."
__________________
A bad day living,Beats a good day dead

If approached I would have kept my distance, and inquired what they wanted. Any other action would have been dictated by them. My thought was that I was being set up, but they were indecisive as to what action they would take.

I believe I said they come in behind me.
 
I thought "the element of surprise" was the concealed carrier's gospel? And yet I read all these stories of people who "accidently on purpose" expose their firearm to someone when they perceive them as a threat. I am failing to understand this phenomena. If the two men in the truck were bent on criminal activity, isn't the theory that upon seeing the gun they make plans to shoot the person carrying the gun first so they can then fulfill their criminal intentions?
 
^^ This.

Never give up your tactical advantage of surprise.

The best fight is one that's over before the other guy know's it's begun.

Displaying, in any manner, offers the goblins a chance to develop a strategy to defeat your position.

Never give them the data they need to develop the way to win.



Willie

.
 
Willie Sutton said:
Never give up your tactical advantage of surprise.
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He didn't, he just chose a safer time to use the "tactical advantage of surprise".

The best time to surprise an attacker is before they've attacked, not after the attack has already begun. Your post almost makes it sound as if it were you in that position you would rather be attacked and then surprise and possibly need to shoot the attacker.

As for me, I hope to go my entire life without needing to surprise an attacker, and without ever having had shot another human being.

But hey, that's just me.
 
The discussion of the "element of surprise" is completely irrelevant here.

The primary question is whether the OP had reason to believe that he had been justified in defensively displaying his firearm, which is in essence what he said he did.

The secondary question is whether he could have presented evidence to that effect. That would only come into play depending upon the answer to the tertiary question, which is...

...whether the men in the truck elected to cause problems for the OP for his having shown his firearm.

What is not in question is the advisability of a high level of observation and preparedness on the part of the OP.
 
leprechaun50 said:
Last Monday I was returning to Minnesota from a trip to Texas to pick up two rescue dogs. In Oklahoma,the dogs needed a pit stop so I pulled in to a "No Services" rest area. Long drive in and can't see the area from the road. I noticed a pickup with two guys in it pulled in and parked a fair ways behind me. They just sat and watched me. I had a feeling they weren't there to strech their legs, but just coming out of Texas where my permit from Minnesota is not honored my pistol was locked in the trunk. I slipped my holster on in the car, then got out and took my pistol out of the locked case in the trunk, out of their line of sight. As I holstered my pistol I turned sideways toward them so they could plainly see what I was doing.

I wasn't looking to be confrontational, but as this was out in the middle of nowhere, my thought (right or wrong) was that I was better off letting them know in a way that made no direct threat to them, that I was armed and was in a state of readiness. If they had no bad intentions they would have gotten out and stretched their legs, taken a leak, before I holstered my pistol or anything but sit and stare at my car. Also if they had no bad intentions my holstering my weapon should have been of no concern to them, as I made no moves, or looked directly at them to give them any percieved threat. As soon as they saw this they drove past me and parked on the shoulder halfway down the exit road.

I walked the dogs, keeping them in site the whole time. They never exited the pickup the whole time, they just kept watching me. After I got the dogs back in the car and drove past them they followed me down the highway for several miles before they turned off.

I think that if I hadn't made a point of letting them know that I was armed, things would have gone south for me.
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Op my 02 as a former police officer you did the right thing. Your safety first their feelings second.
 
If you felt that freaked out by the two guys being there why didn’t you get back in your car and get the hell out of there? Dog pee isn’t that hard to clean up.

By your own admission these two guys did nothing that a reasonable person would call a threat and you flashed your gun with the intent of intimidating them how is that not an over reaction?

ETA

I looked but I couldn’t seem to find anything in Oklahoma law other than you can’t point a gun loaded or unloaded at another person unless you can justify self defense. By the OP’s own admission he couldn’t.

If anyone can find what the Oklahoma law actually says it would be helpful to this discussion but I can tell you that in Colorado you don’t even have to have a gun in your possession to be guilty of felony menacing all you have to do is tell someone you are carrying ( whether you are or not) with the intent of intimidating them.

So had this incident happened in Colorado the OP would have been guilty
Know the laws whereever you are
 
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While Texas doesn't have an "agreement" Texas honors ALL states CHLs.
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It is true that TX does honor permits from some states with which TX does not have reciprocity, it is not true that TX honors all state permits.

There are about a dozen states whose permits are not honored in TX, Minnesota is one of them.

HOWEVER, you don't have to have a permit to carry concealed IN YOUR VEHICLE in TX.
...but just coming out of Texas where my permit from Minnesota is not honored my pistol was locked in the trunk.
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As ClickClickD'oh points out, you no longer need a permit in TX to carry in your car. It is worth noting that are a few caveats, but the two most critical ones are below.

The handgun MUST be concealed, either on your person or concealed elsewhere in the vehicle. If it is not concealed, it is a violation.

You must not be committing a crime other than a typical traffic violation or you will be charged with carrying the handgun illegally in addition to the other charge.

You should also be aware that while you can carry on your person while in your vehicle, if you are outside your vehicle while carrying, you are committing a violation unless you are taking a direct route to/from your current residence (including a temporary residence such as a motel/hotel).

I realize that this is a little late for you, but maybe it will help others who read this thread.
I slipped my holster on in the car, then got out and took my pistol out of the locked case in the trunk, out of their line of sight. As I holstered my pistol I turned sideways toward them so they could plainly see what I was doing.
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My thoughts are that if you find yourself in a situation where you feel you need use a gun to extricate yourself, whether that means firing it or showing it, you should get on the phone with 911 immediately. If it does turn bad, you've got a head start on getting help. If it turns out well, your call will go a long way to painting you as the good guy and towards destroying the credibility of anyone who calls in later and claims you threatened them with a gun.

If you don't feel that the situation warrants calling the police then it's probably worth re-evaluating your perceived need to use a firearm to resolve the problem.
The first thing I wondered about was why you showed them you were armed at all. The conventional wisdom around here is that it's always better to wait until you're attacked and then play your element-of-surprise card.
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There is some truth to this. There's always some small potential that the persons you hope to intimidate aren't going to be that easily intimidated. Now you've let them know you're armed--if they're not dissuaded, now they'll take your capability to resist into account and that could significantly reduce your chances of prevailing in a subsequent encounter.
If the two men in the truck were bent on criminal activity, isn't the theory that upon seeing the gun they make plans to shoot the person carrying the gun first so they can then fulfill their criminal intentions?
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If they truly were "bent on criminal activity" then giving them notice that you're armed lets them prepare in such a way as to take the potential for armed resistance by the victim into account. Of course, it's true that in many, but clearly not all, cases that criminals are willing to wait for an unarmed victim.
 
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I'm usually paranoid if I have to get a weapon from the trunk, and look around to make sure no one can see. If there are people around, ill wrap a towel around said item and carry it into the passenger area and put in on me when not in sight.

I would have stared at them for a little bit assessing them while they assess me, get in and leave. I'm prepared if they had to do something, but I would not let them know I was armed. It would be a bad day for all of us if it came to the point where they have to find out I am armed, because I would be finding them armed before.
 
You should look like it's not worth messing with you. Be a hard target. I myself don't get messed with. A lot of it is how you hold yourself. Same way when I was in Iraq, you look like a hard target and mean business just fiending for it (which us in the Infantry in reality were) you will be passed by as it's not worth the effort and risk from them and they will look for someone else.
 
Mainsail said:
He didn't, he just chose a safer time to use the "tactical advantage of surprise".





The best time to surprise an attacker is before they've attacked, not after the attack has already begun. Your post almost makes it sound as if it were you in that position you would rather be attacked and then surprise and possibly need to shoot the attacker.





As for me, I hope to go my entire life without needing to surprise an attacker, and without ever having had shot another human being.





But hey, that's just me.
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I missed the part about them attacking him or where we confirmed their intent.



Everything worked out, but he should not have showed his weapon. He did so intentionally, wanting then to see it, that is brandishing. It is typically illegal and could very well cause them to react in a way that makes the situation worse.
 
"I looked but I couldn’t seem to find anything in Oklahoma law other than you can’t point a gun loaded or unloaded at another person unless you can justify self defense. By the OP’s own admission he couldn’t."

"Also if they had no bad intentions my holstering my weapon should have been of no concern to them, as I made no moves, or looked directly at them to give them any percieved threat."

This may be splitting hairs, but nowhere did I point my pistol at them.

"I slipped my holster on in the car, then got out and took my pistol out of the locked case in the trunk, out of their line of sight. As I holstered my pistol I turned sideways toward them so they could plainly see what I was doing."

The "words toward" them should not have included in this sentence, as when I turned I was not faceing them.

I am not trying to make excuses for my actions, I own everything I did, just clarifying my answers. If I wasn't willing to accept critisism, or constructive points I wouldn't have posted. I have recieved both and am willing to accept them in the spirit that they were given. I know that others have more experiance than I do and am willing to heed their advice.
 
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