Is "Run, Hide, Fight" The Right Model for Armed Defenders?

[bdickens]

The trainer at my CCW class taught that as CCW carriers we had a responsibility to avoid confrontation and protect any innocents. To find the safest exit and exit last while protecting the innocents during exit. If there was any danger to those without a weapon we were to be protect them. And ourselves also if needed. We are not there to fight but rather protect.

The trainer at your CCW class is a blithering idiot.

 

[rtroha]

I had acquaintance, a firefighter, who was overly obsessed with fire safety- obsessed with fire safety like people on this forum obsess about guns. He would walk into a public venue like a mall and look for fire exits and plan his escape.

It's hard for me to imagine that restaurant - where they work with fire all day- doesn't have a fire exit. And a service entrance close to the road. I'm sure they don't have multiple vendors trucking all their stuff through the mall past shoppers.

It's hard to think outside the box when your life is at stake. I remember an interview with a 9/11 survivor who was trapped in a hallway or vestibule until a building engineer kicked out a hole in the drywall and let everyone out. They were literally trapped by paper, and couldn't think a way out of it under stress.

Maybe the firefighter wasn't overly obsessed with safety. Maybe he was just obsessed enough.

This Time magazine article touches on this very topic about how people react during a crisis.

How to Get Out Alive

From hurricanes to 9/11: What the science of evacuation reveals about how humans behave in the worst of times

content.time.com

People caught up in disasters tend to fall into three categories. About 10% to 15% remain calm and act quickly and efficiently. Another 15% or less completely freak out--weeping, screaming or otherwise hindering the evacuation. That kind of hysteria is usually isolated and quickly snuffed out by the crowd. The vast majority of people do very little. They are "stunned and bewildered," as British psychologist John Leach put it in a 2004 article published in Aviation, Space, and Environmental Medicine.

 

[luzyfuerza]

Greg Ellifritz puts additional nuance on the "run, hide, fight" decision model, especially as it applies to prepared, skilled, and equipped people, here:

"Run, Hide, Fight?"- Not Always the Best Active Killer Response

After today's terrorist knife attack on the campus of The Ohio State University, I'm reposting this article. Initially believing that the terrorist was armed with a gun, university officials sent warnings to students urging them

www.activeresponsetraining.net

Greg's conclusion:

"Proper response tactics for an active killer require an analysis of your own abilities, the environment where the violence is occurring, the presence of help, the response time of the local police, and the killer’s weapons/tactics. They can’t be codified into a simple “Run, Hide, Fight” playbook. “Run, Hide, Fight” is certainly a better response option than passively freezing, but anyone who is truly interested in his own safety must ignore this simple, dumbed-down dictum and think for himself."

This thread is an invitation for members to "think for themselves" about how best to respond in their own situations.

 

[Scrapiron45]

In "Stop the Bleed" classes our students are taught the idea of three color zones, red, yellow and white. Red of course indicating current danger, take cover and assess your situation. Yellow means the danger is no longer considered imminent and it is safe to begin initial treatments and then, if necessary, move the victim to a white zone where it is safe to continue patient assessment and wait on help.
If they are not in a violent situation, such as active shooter or explosion, and dealing with an industrial or vehicular accident they should still, if the situation allows, take a second to evaluate before jumping in.

In self defense scenarios we're taught to use our resources to buy time, use this time wisely.

In something I read by Ayoob years ago he mentioned taking time to put your pants on if you hear someone breaking in your house. I took this information both literally and figuratively in that I would be more comfortable with pants on in a confrontation while the few extra seconds allowed my mind to better comprehend the situation.

 

[Hartkopf]

As said, it depends on the situation.
The “correct/best” response might be to instantly stand up and engage the bad guy.

If the situation unfolds very near you, with your friends and family all near you with no cover at an outdoor event, the armed defenders in the crowd might want to instantly engage.

Training, practice, skills and mindset are all important but I would never 100% hold to a pre planned response.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

As others have stated, run, hide, fight is intended for unarmed (dare I say disarmed) victims. We use it at my workplace in conjunction with A.L.I.C.E (Alert Locate Inform Counter Evade), which stipulates that one should immediately recognize an alert (gun shots) for what they are, locate the alert's origin and inform the building. From there, one should always try to evade if possible and counter (fight) only if all other options have been exhausted.

I think these can apply to armed/prepared defenders/citizens. Engaging in a gun fight always comes with a greater than zero chance of you losing that gun fight, regardless of how much you train. (And I say this from a position of a person who trains a lot.) It is no different than the principal of avoidance in our day-to-day/EDC context. The notion that one wins every fight that one avoids. There are other risks inherent to engaging an active shooter, chief among them is being killed by police in addition to you inadvertently shooting bystanders.

I realize that this runs counter to what we believe regarding the 2nd Amendment, and that there are those among us with the "sheepdog" mindset. But I wanted to offer a conflicting viewpoint, even if I don't fully agree with it, as food for thought.

 

[Armored farmer]

BTW, I despise concert or big sports event venues. Largely because cover/concealment is limited and so running has to be the first option. And running is impeded by the mass of humanity around you.

That and most ccw are completely forbidden in those settings.

 

[mcb]

As much as I hate those bad training video you often get at work the general tactic seems right to me for many active shooter situations. I just did my training last week and I was pleasantly surprised to see the new course work is using made a concerted effort to say that although run, hide, fight is the best priority in most active shooter situations there are plenty of situations where one of more of those options is not going to be available and you need to recognize that quickly and move to the next best tactic. They also made the point that hiding alone is not a very good tactic and that if you are going to hide it should be somewhere that truly conceals you. More importantly a place you can secure strongly enough that it extremely difficult for the attacker to physically get to you, difficult enough that they will move on. Once securely hidden then prepare to fight and be quiet to remain concealed. Simply hiding under your desk and hoping is not good enough.

 

[Armored farmer]

In something I read by Ayoob years ago he mentioned taking time to put your pants on if you hear someone breaking in your house. I took this information both literally and figuratively in that I would be more comfortable with pants on in a confrontation while the few extra seconds allowed my mind to better comprehend the situation.

I learned this lesson as a volunteer fireman.
I usually come home from work in need of a shower, then pull on shorts or sweats, ....but my pants, no matter how dirty, get hung on a hook ready to pull back on. In them are my wallet, multi-tool, light, bandana......all my edc stuff....
Nobody ever complained about my dirty pants when I showed up at an emergency.

 

[fastbolt]

Well, it's understandable that LE has come up with Run, Hide, Fight as a recommendation for untrained, unarmed and unprepared private citizens in response to an active shooter situation, especially when it may not be known how many threats are present, their movement, etc.

It's also understandable that it's not the default tactic taught to civilian LE and the military.

 

[JohnKSa]

...my pants, no matter how dirty, get hung on a hook ready to pull back on. In them are my wallet, multi-tool, light, bandana......all my edc stuff....

A coworker's house burned down one night. I went over to help them a bit later that day and they were all out in their pajamas going through the rubble. They got out with only what they were wearing and everyone was asleep when the fire started. Christmas lights, by the way. They lost their cars because they were parked in the driveway and garage and they didn't get out with keys and couldn't move them--so they watched them burn with the house. It made an impression on me.

Since then, before I go to bed, I make sure my shirt and pants are in a very easy-to-remember/access place, on the way to one exit and near another potential exit, and ready to put on (keys/belt/wallet/pocket knife/etc.) If I can't put them on, I can at least grab them on the way out. So far, no fire, but they have come in handy a few times for other unexpected situations.

 

[luzyfuerza]

A.L.I.C.E (Alert Locate Inform Counter Evade), which stipulates that one should immediately recognize an alert (gun shots) for what they are, locate the alert's origin and inform the building. From there, one should always try to evade if possible and counter (fight) only if all other options have been exhausted.

Alert, Locate, Evade, Counter, in that order. This matches my thinking pretty well.

For me, "Evade" is a much more useful description than "Run" (blindly). Especially since it follows "Alert" and "Locate".

 

[Old Dog]

Back in the day, the guys I worked with had a term for when the bad things happened -- it was basically, "being in the ****" -- a common slang (sometimes considered profane) word for excrement. The first time this happened to you, you were basically excused, and it was almost expected that you'd have trouble processing what was going on, no matter your seniority or length of service. But, after the first time, you were expected respond appropriately.

It was a steep learning curve for me, and I'd had some of the best training available (at the time) courtesy of Uncle Sam.

I cannot begin to imagine what it would be like for my oldest grandkid, a kindergartner, to be in a situation where there was an active shooter in her school. Even my oldest children, good education, formal firearms training, have shot a lot, years of experience with firearms (but no military or law enforcement experience), seemingly possessed of above average common sense -- I could not predict how they'd respond.

Most adults cannot begin to comprehend what their actions should be in the event they're confronted with an active shooter situation.

I will not even begin to presume what to tell the average licensed concealed handgun carrier what to do if presented with such a situation.

In my experience, I've seen people I considered highly trained and capable, poop their pants in the face of a crisis, and run away screaming like a little child, while I've had the honor of witnessing the lowest-ranking, presumably least-trained and experienced folks, rise up and perform some incredibly brave acts.

"Run-hide-fight" the right model for the armed citizen? I can't really answer the question. It seems to be solely dependent upon the individual involved.

Best we can do, IMO, is have the conversations with our family members and friends.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Alert, Locate, Evade, Counter, in that order. This matches my thinking pretty well.

For me, "Evade" is a much more useful description than "Run" (blindly). Especially since it follows "Alert" and "Locate".

Actually-and your misconception is quite common, the actions don't have to be done in any order. They're just in that order to help people remember them.

For example, if your alert is a guy coming through your door with a gun, you likely won't be trying to alert and inform the building of the attack and/or give a description and location of the attacker. (Typical actions that go with the A.L. and I.) You're likely going to go right to Evade and/or Counter.

The system is intended to be used as a guide. For example, someone in authority in the building announces on the PA that there is an attacker in the back hallway wearing all black and carrying a rifle. If you're in the front hallway, you can go straight to evade and evacuate. If you're in the back hallway, instead of running (especially blindly), you can initiate a lockdown. (And the program goes into a lot of details on how to secure a room from within.)

The training that comes with the program even instructs on when and how to conduct an unarmed counter against an armed attacker. This is where the system, in my view, is a complete and total failure. The creators of ALICE advise you to run away if you're alone, arguing that distance makes you a smaller target and, therefor, more difficult hit. To a person with no shooting experience, this gives a false sense of security. All of us know here, that, in the confines of an office or classroom, you can't get enough distance to make yourself harder to hit. Furthermore, they advise to counter by throwing objects at the attacker, to break his concnetration and ability to aim, making it less likely he will hit anyone. Lastly, if you have sufficient numbers and no other option, to rush the attacker, tackle him, and restrain him using at least one person to hold each appendage (1 each on each arm and leg) a 5th to hold the head down, and 6th on the torso. So yeah, six plus unarmed people are supposed to charge an armed attacker and tackle him.

 

[Mk VII]

Here, it's called 'Run, Hide, Tell' - they don't encourage fighting.

 

[jstert]

Yes, it's a sad commentary, however it's the world we live in. Let's keep the thread focused on how to survive in the world we live in, not lamenting that it isn't the one we would like to live in.

should captain parker have accepted the world he was born into? if he had, wouldn’t we be forever subjects of the crown, like our dear canadian cousins, eh?

doesn’t “how to survive in the world we live in” mean protecting ourselves, which requires temperment as well as tools? doesn’t temperment first require reordering the catch-phrase that our current rulers foist on us?

running away or hiding can be prudent choices but shouldn’t always be the universal, default, first course of action, unless you have been defanged. the ones who would defang us, first must condition us to run.

 

[luzyfuerza]

Most adults cannot begin to comprehend what their actions should be in the event they're confronted with an active shooter situation.

Agreed.

Many adults will never personally experience an attack using deadly force, let alone a mass attack. They're even less likely to use lessons from their first such experience to prepare for the next one.

So, if someone ever does have to face such a attack, their only real hope of responding in a way that is likely to succeed with their personal skills and attitudes, and in their own venues, is to think and talk things through beforehand. To get the "mental reps" if you will.

Which is your point here:

Best we can do, IMO, is have the conversations with our family members and friends.

I remember well a time I froze in a real emergency. I was a young dad, seated in a restaurant booth with my wife and four little kids.

I watched an unoccupied, out-of-gear pickup rocket down a hill and through an intersection, heading literally straight for us. There was only a low masonry wall, topped with a huge plate glass window between the truck and my little family.

I was frozen in place.

The truck was stopped by the wall, literally four feet from our booth, and the window didn't so much as crack.

But thinking afterward about what would have resulted if the wall had not been so solid or the window had broken and fallen down on us terrified me.

That memory of being unprepared and frozen stuck in my craw. I was so disappointed in my actions.

And I vowed to be as mentally alert and as mentally prepared as I could be for future emergencies. No matter their source or nature.

 

[luzyfuerza]

Actually-and your misconception is quite common, the actions don't have to be done in any order. They're just in that order to help people remember them.

Good point, insofar as "Evade" and "Counter" are concerned.

But for someone who is not part of a bigger organization any more, both of these must follow "Alert" and "Locate".

That's also why, for me, I exclude "Inform".

 

[luzyfuerza]

Here, it's called 'Run, Hide, Tell' - they don't encourage fighting.

Quite a change, over less than a century, from this:

"We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender."

Chamberlain vs Churchill indeed.

 

[dobedo]

How you respond, and the survive depends on your situation awareness it is that simple just to name a few.
1. It is as simple as picking the right seat in a restaurant so you can view every coming in.
2. Pay full attention to your surroundings.
3. Know where safety zones are fire stations, police stations and so on.
4. Do not put yourself in a situation that requires you to fight or flight.
5. Do not use facial reck on your phones use a PIN#.
6. Keep your phone in your pocket when out on a street you are not familiar with.
7. Stop using earbuds or headphones while walking or jogging pay attention what is around you.
8. Do not visit liquor and jewelry stores late at night if you are not smart enough to get things done at daytime oh well.
9. Hide your pocketbook on the floor when getting gas and lock the doors when getting gas.
10. When a car suddenly pulls up with a group of people in it that look suspicious RUN!

 

[Hartkopf]

You can get a small clue how you would respond to a shooting by looking at how you compete and execute under pressure. This won't answer all questions but it can help you understand yourself better than typical arm chair quarterbacks.

 

[.38 Special]

Actually, I like "run hide fight" and am glad it has come into general use. For one thing, any official exhortation for the citizenry to offer violence to criminals is a step forward - I still am somewhat surprised to see it in lieu of something like the British version mentioned in #40.

Beyond that, I don't see it as a specific instruction so much as a command to mentally prepare: "This is happening. It's real, and you have to deal with it. So stop standing around, dummy, and do something." No, it's not a substitute for training, preparation, and all the other stuff that most of us on this kind of website take for granted - although even us folks might benefit from a kick in the pants to get us going, in such a situation - but as a simple, urgent message to the masses, I can hardly think of a better one.

 

[wayneinFL]

Is it just me or are 90% of the objections to "run, hide, fight" that you can't always run or hide safely? I thought it went without saying that those three words are not an entire strategy in and of themselves, but a summation of several pages of strategy that experts have been studying and refining.

Yeah, if you can't safely flee, then don't flee- hide. If you can't safely conceal or barricade yourself, then fight.

For your own personal safety, the safest thing to do is to flee or hide. The least safe thing for yourself from a physical, mental, financial, and legal standpoint is to fight the attacker with lethal force, even if it has stopped attacks in the past. If you want to fight an attacker when it would have been safer to hide or run, understand that you have taken on significant risks.

 

[Old Dog]

What specific conclusions have other members come to about venues you frequent?

Well, I too get nervous about stadiums and arenas packed with stupid, frequently drunk or drugged people. In the U.S., we have been fortunate to not have some of the mass stampedes, some with hundreds of deaths and serious injuries, at big sporting events that have happened in Asia, Africa and Europe. We've seen in the past couple decades a couple of these situations at concerts and nightclubs, but not nearly on the scale of the stadium disasters.

Beyond that, I don't see it as a specific instruction so much as a command to mentally prepare: "This is happening. It's real, and you have to deal with it. So stop standing around, dummy, and do something."

Exactly! Back in the day (during long-ago hostage situation training) we had this thing called the "The 3 A's" -- accept, adapt, act. Accept that what is occurring is real, it's now and it's potentially deadly. Adapt to your situation, think of possible ways out or how to deal with events. Act if you have the opportunity. The key thing to note is that in almost all critical incidents, the acceptance piece is often the most difficult. Those who've never gone through traumatic, life-threatening events, usually have a problem accepting that what's just started is actually real.

 

[dweis]

There is way to predetermine the best course of action unless the details of the encounter are carefully spelled out. Suppose you are attacked by an armed person who is 20 feet in front of you. Is it feasible to run? Hide would only mean taking cover, if available. Fight is useless unless you are armed.

Suppose you are in aisle 8 at a Walmart and shooting breaks out. Running could mean you run toward the shooter who you cannot see. Where can you get to to hide if you don't know the location of the shooter. Fight requires sight, on target that you do not have.

Hiding requires knowledge of area layout and. Prospective good hiding places. Fight means getting close on the target. Run means you have top have somwhere to run to.

In any situation which requires a run, hide, fight decision you can only rely upon your situational awareness and instincts. Because there is likely no time to think about it. But I would be more inclined to take cover and be ready to fight.