Israel has the right idea

[dodging230grainers]

from http://www.nraila.org/ :

Israeli law requires that a person have a license in order to own any kind of firearm, but the license is readily available to any law-abiding adult who can show he or she has had firearms training. (Israel has universal military training for Jews of both sexes). And if you legally possess a gun, Israel allows--indeed encourages--carrying it. In effect, Israeli law nearly parallels that of Florida, Pennsylvania and 28 other U.S. states where licenses to carry a concealed firearm are available on application and passing a background check. (Vermonters have the right to carry without obtaining a license).

Nevertheless, though rapidly growing, gun ownership is low in Israel--because it is unnecessary. Israel is a socialist country, so the government is supposed to provide people all their basic needs, including guns for self defense. Israel loans out guns by the millions to its citizens.

Israelis going to a dangerous area routinely stop by a police station or communal armory to pick up an Uzi or a pistol. Israeli policy is that armed guardians should be near every place there are potential victims. Schools may not send children on field trips unless the children are accompanied by at least one teacher or parent carrying a gun.

At night, many neighborhoods are patrolled by "civil guards"--teenage volunteers carrying government-issued guns. If someone has disappeared (and possibly has been kidnaped), dozens, scores or even hundreds of civilian volunteer searchers are assembled and issued firearms to carry while searching for the missing person.

So widespread is this issuing of arms that it fundamentally affects Israeli firearms training. Since most pistols are not personally owned, Israelis are trained to keep them in "Condition 2" (cartridges in magazine, but not chambered). This is because the pistol a trainee may be issued at any particular future time could be any of the myriad of guns in Israeli arsenals: a Browning M-35 (Hi-Power); a Walther P-38; a Beretta Modello 1951 (Brigadeer); or even the French Modeles 1935A or 1950, or the Polish Pistolet wz/35 (Radom) or Czech CZ vz/27.

No matter how unfamiliar the recipient may be with a pistol issued him, one technique suits all: Condition 2 is a safe method of carry when there is no need for immediate use, and when all one need do is jack the slide to have the firearm ready for use.

Israel`s "guns everywhere" policy accounts for incidents such as the one in which three terrorists opened up with AK-47s on a Jerusalem crowd. The terrorists were able to kill only one victim before they were themselves shot down by handgun-carrying Israelis.

The surviving terrorist was bitter when he spoke to the press the next day. Their plan had been to quickly kill 20 or 30 people at a series of public places, always escaping before military or police could arrive. They hadn`t known Israeli civilians were armed. The terrorist felt that it just wasn`t "fair."

Switzerland is similar. I'm moving to one of these places!

 

[Henry Bowman]

Seems pretty stupid to me. Viz:

Israeli law requires that a person have a license in order to own any kind of firearm

Israelis going to a dangerous area routinely stop by a police station or communal armory to pick up an Uzi or a pistol.

So widespread is this issuing of arms that it fundamentally affects Israeli firearms training. Since most pistols are not personally owned, Israelis are trained to keep them in "Condition 2" (cartridges in magazine, but not chambered). This is because the pistol a trainee may be issued at any particular future time could be any of the myriad of guns in Israeli arsenals

No matter how unfamiliar the recipient may be with a pistol issued him, one technique suits all: Condition 2 is a safe method of carry when there is no need for immediate use, and when all one need do is jack the slide to have the firearm ready for use.

 

[dodging230grainers]

I'd still rather have a whole group of people around me be in condition 2 than maybe one person here in the US in condition 1. While their carrying conditions might need some work, the fact that most people are armed is incredible.

 

[Kamicosmos]

I would not want to live in a place where I HAD to be openenly carrying a MACHINE GUN just to go get groceries.

I like guns, and I'm glad I can CCW. But I have no rambo daydreams about living in a freaking warzone.

 

[Telperion]

Um, no. If you do a search on "israeli gun laws" you will find the situation is more complicated and restricted than you believe.

 

[GunGoBoom]

communal armory

now THAT would be our tax dollars at work!

 

[jefnvk]

but the license is readily available to any law-abiding adult who can show he or she has had firearms training.

And therein lies the real problem. Who's to say that ten years down the road, someone won't legislate to require a cost of $2000 for the permit and a 9 week long full day training course?

 

[p35]

We used to have an Israeli member who complained a lot about how tight gun control is over there. May be a different story in the West Bank than in Israel proper, but they don't seem all that friendly toward gun owners. Would you want to have to get a random gun out of the government armory in an emergency and then turn it in afterward?

 

[Henry Bowman]

We used to have an Israeli member who complained a lot about how tight gun control is over there.

Balrong. What ever happened to him?

 

[Old Dog]

Condition 2?

Since most pistols are not personally owned, Israelis are trained to keep them in "Condition 2" (cartridges in magazine, but not chambered).

Cooper's Conditions of Readiness:
- Condition 0 - A round is in the chamber, hammer is cocked, and the safety is off.
- Condition 1 - Also known as "cocked and locked," means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.
- Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.
- Condition 3 - The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.
- Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.

Now, AFAIK, these carry conditions are applicable for all autopistols -- or so I've been taught in the military. What is the NRA's website article doing here? These guys are supposed to be knowledgeable?

 

[MikeIsaj]

Now, AFAIK, these carry conditions are applicable for all autopistols -- or so I've been taught in the military.

I have a Sig P220, DA, no safety. Just an example of how it isn't a universal standard.

 

[No_Brakes23]

When I was in Israel in early 1990, I witnessed one of the field trip chaperons walking around with an M14. No one batted an eye.

They have a saying over there.

"Every Israeli is a frontline soldier."

Switzerland similarly is surrounded by potential enemies. 500 years of neutrality notwithstanding, they are aware of this and thus their level of firearms ownership.

I wouldn't trade places with either country. Both have their abnormal firearms laws because of their unique situations, neither of which really apply to us. We are pretty much the big dogs on the global block, and don't really have any concern for our sovreignty.

I appreciate the existance of both countries, but neither would be my first choice to live in.

 

[femoralis]

Isreal has relatively heavy gun control. They do allow carry for many people, however.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Israeli law requires that a person have a license in order to own any kind of firearm...

Any scheme that starts out with a bad idea is at best a waste of time and effort.

 

[The_Antibubba]

"I'm sorry, but you can't have this Eagle until you return the Uzi."

I don't know for certain, but I'd guess the "license" is used to screen out Arabs, Palestinians, and others who might be perceived as hostile to Israelis. I amigine that very few Jews and army veterans are denied a license.

Also, if guns are more often issued out of a communal armory than purchased, it would make it easier to retrieve any loaners that don't come back in a timely manner-sorta like having a library card.

 

[c_yeager]

Ever see those weird little magazine holders on M16s in Israel? The lock into the magazine well and hold a 30round magazine 90 degrees straight out. In order to load the gun one can drop the device with the mag release and flip it over to insert the magazine. This device is necessary because there are multiple conditions in which the Israeli defense forces are not alowed to have ammunition in their weapons at all, that is not a great system.

If you find some older pictures you can see images of empty rifles with magazines held on with rubber bands too, that is an almost tragic sight.

 

[femoralis]

Here is information about gun control in Israel, from ask the rabbi:


"Many have asked about the easy availability of firearms in the State of Israel, and whether or not they can bring their guns with them when visiting or settling there. Some have visited Israel, or have seen photographs of people walking the streets in Israel carrying firearms. Nearly everyone interested in the preservation of the Second Amendment in America points to Israel as proof of how ordinary citizens, armed and trained, are a deterrent to crime and terrorism. And it's true! However, a quick glance at the rigid gun laws in Israel will show that it has far stricter firearms laws than many people, including myself, previously thought. Enjoy reading the translation as much as I enjoyed translating the document!

Sincerely,

Rabbi R. Mermelstein
The Israel Dept. of the Interior makes notification to the general public the requirements necessary for the obtaining of a permit to possess a firearm:
1. Applicant must be a permanent resident of Israel for 3 consecutive years prior to making application for a firearms permit.

2. Applicant must be 21 years of age.

3. The permit request must be for personal use, not to engage in the business of firearms sales.

4. Applicant must fall into one of the following categories:

a. Part-time reservist (volunteer) for 3 years- may own 1 handgun
b. Such a reservist (volunteer) is a member of a gun club- may own 1 rifle
c. Professional, licensed public transportation driver, transporting a minimum of 5 passengers- may own 1 handgun
d. Licensed animal control officer- may own 2 hunting rifles, *not* full automatic weapons, or semi-automatic weapons with a limited capacity magazine.
e. Full-time dealer of jewelry or large sums of cash or valuables- may own 1 handgun

West Bank and Gaza Strip Settlers:

1. A resident in a militarily strategic buffer zone, essential to the security of the State of Israel- may own 1 handgun

2. A business owner in these geographic areas- may own 1 handgun

Veterans:

1. Veterans of the Regular Army honorably discharged with the rank of noncommissioned officer, and veterans of the Reserve Army with the rank of regimental commander- may own 1 handgun

2. Retired law enforcement officers with the rank of sergeant- may own 1 handgun

3. Retired prison guards with the rank of squadron commander- may own 1 handgun

Individuals:

Upon presenting documentation that one is about to receive a souvenir, a prize, an inheritance, or an award of appreciation from the Israel military."

 

[DRZinn]

These parts are good:

if you legally possess a gun, Israel allows--indeed encourages--carrying it... Israel loans out guns by the millions to its citizens...Israelis going to a dangerous area routinely stop by a police station or communal armory to pick up an Uzi or a pistol. Israeli policy is that armed guardians should be near every place there are potential victims...At night, many neighborhoods are patrolled by "civil guards"... If someone has disappeared (and possibly has been kidnaped), dozens, scores or even hundreds of civilian volunteer searchers are assembled and issued firearms to carry while searching for the missing person.

These, not so good:

Israeli law requires that a person have a license in order to own any kind of firearm... gun ownership is low in Israel...Israel is a socialist country... Since most pistols are not personally owned, Israelis are trained to keep them in "Condition 2" (cartridges in magazine, but not chambered).

I'll stay here, thanks. A loaner must be returned on demand.

 

[Sam Adams]

I wouldn't want to live under Israeli gun laws. They severely limit what you are allowed to own, don't let you buy more than 50 rounds/year for each gun to bring home (though you can buy an unlimited number at the range to use there), and they don't allow reloading. My brother lives there, and he has told me about all of the rules & regulations - and compared to all but the most restrictive states/municipalities here, Israel is not gun-friendly. However, compared to virtually any country in the world, Israel is a gun owner's paradise (because most countries will put you in jail or shoot you if you've got a gun).

Switching gears...

I remember one story of a woman living on the "West Bank" who entered a convenience store with her baby in a carriage. At some point an Arab entered and took out a gun. Whereupon this lady reached into the baby carriage, whipped out an Uzi, and blew away the would-be terrorist. Somehow or other, I just can't picture the typical soccer mom here even thinking about doing that, let alone actually carrying out such a defense of herself, her baby and everyone else in the store.