Just how accurate are AR type rifles at 500 yds?

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PaulBk

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While we have a 600 yd range at my club, I have never shot on it. I don't think I could hit a building let alone a smaller target at that distance without a scope/match rifle.

What is the maximum range of a combat type AR/Mx rifle, say with a red dot or open sights?

Just curious.

-PB
 
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With ball ammo, you're at the limit at about 500yds--the bullets will go subsonic shortly after. At many full distance matches, they won't let you shoot 5.56 ball ammo at 600yds because of the hazards it presents for the folks in the pits.

With 75 and 80grn loads, a match tweaked AR (iron sights, float tube and match barrel) will easily hold inside 1MoA.
 
The AR rifles RULE at Camp Perry.
True, they use heavier bullets for the longer ranges, but accuracy is fantastic.

For standard rifles with standard ammo, you'll still be surprised at how well the AR groups at longer ranges.

One interesting item I recently read was in Dick Couch's book "The Finishing School" about how Navy SEAL's are trained after BUDS.
This covers the actual weapons, hand-to-hand, and combat training.

Couch describes SEAL marksmanship training with the M4 carbine, during which the SEAL's shoot the carbine at 500 yards to prove to them that the M4 isn't just a short range weapon.

The AR series rifles can be extraordinarily accurate, even in non-Match versions.
 
When I was in the Reserves I played around with some of the highpower guys. We once went to a range with AR's and M16s. We were shooting at 600 meters with iron sights. We found that with lighter bullets, that they were tumbling at that distance for some reason. Heavier bullets did better and a few bullet load combinations were reasonably accurate.

I think that with different rates of twist you could possibly get lighter bullets to shoot accuratly at that distance but we seldom saw a light bullet load (55 grain bullet) that didn't keyhole. It was years ago that we did this and for the life of me I can't remember what the rate of twist is in the M16A1 but those rifles certainly did better with the 69 grain bullets. Since those matches didn't allow anything but stock rifles, I can't really speak to the accuracy potential of match grade barrels on an AR shooting at that distance.

My AR, which is a Target Model, not an H-Bar, shoots light loads well enough a moderate distances. My best 100 group with it, measured with calipers, was .55 inche center to center. But the thing is rather ammo sensitive and I have found only two loads that will shoot like that for me. I've never tried them at long distance but I imagine that they would be decent for a ways out. But I'd not make any bets at 600 meters.
 
Most Marines that qualify "Expert" do so by consistantly putting ten rounds into a standing man target at 500yds, using off the rack M-16s, issue ammo and iron sights. Max effective range of an M-16 is 460 meters. That's slightly short of 500yds. Although AR's are intended primarily for closer ranges than that, it speaks well for the weapon and the operator.
 
Most Marines that qualify "Expert" do so by consistantly putting ten rounds into a standing man target at 500yds, using off the rack M-16s, issue ammo and iron sights. Max effective range of an M-16 is 460 meters. That's slightly short of 500yds. Although AR's are intended primarily for closer ranges than that, it speaks well for the weapon and the operator.
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Those guys have my admiration! I can barely make out the target at 100 yards with iron sights!
 
I saw a military competition on OLN where they has to shoot out-of-the-box M-16's at a silouette at (i believe) 600 yards. Guys were hitting the targets, sitting, on their first shots.

Want long range accuracy out of an AR? Try the AR-50.
 
We were shooting the A2 model and I think the rate of twist was slower like 1:10? Does that sound right?

The bullets we were shooting were Berger VLD and thier shape does tend to reduce the bearing surface in the barrel which is I think is what really effects stability, rather than the weight. That might account for it. I distinctly remember those needle shaped rounds though.

Personally, even for just punching paper, I don't think the .223 is the best choice for that kind of range. The .308 is better and I've seen guys do amazing things with a .30-338. While it's a wildcat cartridge still, the super flat trajectory makes 500 yard hits with almost boring regularity with a good rifleman. Recoil is another matter.
 
M16A2 barrel has a 7" twist which will stabilize anything up to and usually including the new 90 grain Sierra MK. Originally intended for the SS110 tracer, a 9" twist is plenty for the SS109/M859 hardball.

I do a little bit of Long Range shooting - not to be confused with getting long range hits with a real GI weapon - and the big boomers like .30-338 are on the way out. If you like power, the 6.5x284 is well established, if you want finesse, there are several 6mm wildcats shooting the 107 and now 115 grain Sierras or VLDs. And I am going to find out if that 90 grain Sierra will make it to 1000 yards. Its BC is comparable to a 175 grain .308".
 
Most Marines that qualify "Expert" do so by consistantly putting ten rounds into a standing man target at 500yds, using off the rack M-16s, issue ammo and iron sights. Max effective range of an M-16 is 460 meters. That's slightly short of 500yds. Although AR's are intended primarily for closer ranges than that, it speaks well for the weapon and the operator.
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Right on! It was the 500m line that brought my score back up into Expert range after a horrible showing off-hand at 200m. I left boot camp with crossed rifles... :D
 
The modern AR-15/M16 is pretty accurate, as previous posters have testified. But it took a lot of time and a good many of those funny green pieces of paper to get the gun shooting that way. The earlier ones had a bit of a problem with a target smaller than the average barn, and bullet stability was so poor that Colt tried to give it a positive "spin" by describing all the horrible wounds tumbling bullets caused. Yep, assuming the bullet ever got to anything to wound.

Eventually, by playing with rifling, barrel manufacture, foreend and gas tube support, bullet weights and bearing surfaces, etc., etc., the contractors and the Armed Forces marksmanship folks got the guns shooting very well, even breaking records set with the M14, no slouch in the accuracy department itself. When those lessons were factored back into the service rifle, the general level of accuracy went up tremendously.

The work has not been as effective in overcoming the laws of physics; a light bullet simply does not hit as hard as a heavy bullet. The recognition of that may lead, fairly shortly, to a new cartridge and a modified, if not new, rifle.

Jim
 
Want long range accuracy out of an AR? Try the AR-50
Click to expand...

......Or the AR-10(T). I have heard favorable things about them for 1,000 yard or meter shooting. They also chamber them in .300 RSAUM now. My AR-10 is an A2 carbine, so not really a 1k yard gun. But it does shoot very nice and, even with a 4 MOA red dot I have been able to print 1.7" 100 yard groups, with the average being closer to 2 MOA. I know armalite rates the (T) series as sub-MOA guns, and I would imagine they couild easily do .6 MOA.
 
Skip the AR10T and get a GA Precision AR10 if you want a trully accurate and reliable AR10 or go with a Stoner SR25. Armalites are so so for accuracy and their reliaiblity is in the toliet.
Pat
 
As has been mentioned, standard production, out of the box (or as issued in the military) are very accurate rifles. And have been for many years, and it didn't take a lot of development to get there. I have a Colt SP1 that is now around 30 years old and it is just as accurate as one you would buy today.
For extreme accuracy at long range, obviously some custom work will do wonders: same goes for any other military rifle with the M1 and M14 being no exception.
I do quite a bit of shoot at 500 meters with AR15s. At that range, you need to be shooting good ammo. I have tried it with Wolf/14.5" barrel and was unsuccessful in getting a single hit on an IDPA silhouette. Wind becomes a big issue at those ranges with the AR. Although contrary to popular internet BS, I was able to consistantly put my rounds into the A-Zone at 300 meters using Wolf 55 grain FMJ and the 14.5" barrel: although I was using a TA31F ACOG optic and also did the same with an Aimpoint ML3. But past 300, things get a lot more crtitical. On a calm day, and with premium ammo, those same hits at 500 are no problem. Good ammo, preferably with a heavy bullet and good wind doping skills are definitely needed at 500 yards with an AR.
 
Well
They do well if everything is right.
Ammo, rifle, rifleman. if any of the above is not up to par the results will show.
I have begun experimenting shooting Palma with the ar15 service rifle in a 1-8 twist. Should get allot of pratice in developing some loads this winter at the Whittington center in Raton.
Did try it out in June and my problem was I was not used to the wind at those ranges. I will work that out with practice but 800 and 900 was a learning experience and leaked allot of 9's out for not putting on enough wind.

For 600 yards I find that you need to work with a certain load to get used to how it works in the wind. After switching to a different bullet this year for long range I was still trying to put wind on that I did not need at the beginning of the year. Like at Perry in the presidents it took me those 10 shots to figure the wind out and its ways and only missed 1 slight let off and leaked a close 9 out the left on leg day. it was tough but learned a few more things about the effects of the wind at 12 and 6 this year and will look at it more the coming year.
Yeah I shoot decent groups in practice and sometimes Iam even impressed with a certain load. But on match day it comes down to can I hold the 10 ring as the ammo and rifle sure can. Fired in my first 100 yard match since like 2002 last sat. Took a new barrelled ar15 out and figured to get some rounds down it in the match. The slow prone group turned out to be 1.6" for the 20 shot group for a 200-9x. Made three sight adjustments during the string two to keep it centered and one because my first 12 shots were all below the center line of the x and I was afraid I would leak one out the bottom. around 4 of the 11 10's I called off one way or the other and they were right were I thought they would be. Need to work on that NPA as when it was not perfect it was a 10 wide. if I threw out those 4 wide 10's the group would of been right at 1".

Jon
 
OK, I'm not going to tell you what I've read, heard, think, or believe, I'm only going to tell you what I know based on my personal first hand experience, with 5 different AR15 rifles...

All rifles are RRA or Bushmaster, 1:9 twist, with barrels ranging from 14.5" - 16". None are HBAR, although two were fluted HBAR, two were M4 profile, and one is a Bushy Superlight... 3 were carbines, 2 were mid-lengths. No match rifles, no match triggers, just good name brand quality rifles.

Ammo was GA Arms "canned heat" 55g fmj.

Shooting was done on "English" range in Ft. Benning GA on a summer day with little if any wind. Target was a steel human sillouette hanging at 500 meters.

With iron sights, hits with the 14.5" and 16" ARs ranged from 4 of 10 to 8 of ten with performance based SOLELY on the shooter. Barrel length didn't matter, shooter did. When we swapped rifles, hits stayed fairly consistent with the same shooter regardless of the rifle. One 16" fluted HBAR mid-length has an ACOG (TA01) and it was capable of 9 of 10 hits maximum, and nobody got less than 6 of 10 with the 4x scope.

I have fired a fellow ARFCOM member's M4 with a TA01 NSN using 77gr black hills, and I can say that the impact seemed stronger on the target, but 55gr worked for us having fun.

FYI 5.56 does not go subsonic "just past" 500 meters.
 
Right on! It was the 500m line that brought my score back up into Expert range after a horrible showing off-hand at 200m. I left boot camp with crossed rifles...
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Me too :cool: I shot just two points shy of the series high shooter (also in my platoon) @236-something I'm proud of to this day despite it happening 18 years ago (!). Frankly, I found the 500 yard line easier to shoot at than offhand at 200, so I found it relatively easy for me to simply not miss center mass as that distance. IIRC, the 500 yard line for many of us was usually considered 'gravy'-someplace you could make up points on if you screwed up earlier.

(To give you a better idea of some of the lengths we went to to dry fire and train before any shots were fired: among others, we used to "sight in" with a full canteen strapped on the end of the rifle barrel for hours at a time to help steady ourselves...it did, but was doggone hard. Of course, as we also used slings in a manner that held the weapon rock steady but which hurt and had a tendency to cut off circulation in the arm after long periods of time, "sling palsy" was a very real medical problem that even produced some permanant and dischargeable injuries).

I too think I'd have a harder time of it now being older, but then again, I had never shot any weapons with any regularity before going in, and I'm a better overall shooter now, and the 'Corps is the 'Corps, so.....who knows? ;)

I'd dearly love to have a 20" barreled, as close to issue as possible, AR15 to keep up those skills learned there then. One day.

Cruc
 
I can't speak for a rack-grade AR or M16 type rifle, but my match rifle will hold the X-ring all the way to 600, so long as I pay attention to what I am doing. The trick at the longer ranges seems to be wind and mirage reading ability, not bullet speed. I fired a 94-5X at 600 on the P-100 with a first shot 7 at Perry, then couldn't break into an Expert score from the 6 for the rest of the week! :( It all boiled down to mirage and wind.
 
My wife came back from the Inter-Service matches in Quantico about a month ago, they use a AR15 NM Rifle in competition, almost the exact thing as a RRA NM, they were shooting the 1000 yard line with molly coated hollow points. After seeing the scores, you wouldn't believe how well they were shooting at the 1000.

Personaly, I've shot beat up M16A2's out to 600 yards, with irons sites and satisfactory results and newer M16A4's with ACOG's out past 836 meters, with confirmed hits... measured on a quality range finder.

It's all in the training, how many shoot thier .45 acp out to 50 yards or more? A bit of practice on a Good Quality AK will render some supriseing results as well, expecially when you're board with a bunch of them around... The Marine Corps knows how to train for long range, and we're getting pretty good at CQB now too.
 
I shoot my full size service pistols (Glock 17, Wilson CQB and Kimber Custom Classic) as well as my full size revolvers at 50 yards and beyond. The service pistols stop for me at about 75 yards. Past that I have difficulty hitting bowling pins. With the revolvers 100 yards is do able.
Pat
 
they are OK

Combat rifles are not a very good idea over 6 to 700 yards out but they can do the job= but I would not take the chance in a real life situation.

PS I m not very sure what is the generel twist rate for an AR that would keep the bullet energy up so you could effectivly reach over 500 yards,,,
 
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