Know-it-alls in Training

[wayneinFL]

I didn't want to derail a good thread, but someone mentioned young men often being difficult to train, because they think they know everything, even though they have less experience. I get it- there are a lot of American men who go out on the range thinking they're born knowing how to shoot, like we're all direct descendants of Davy Crockett.

Those of you who teach- how do you work against someone's inflated ego?

Those of you who are training- how do you keep your own ego in check?

I have some ideas about it, but I want to hear others' first, because you all probably have better ideas.

 

[jmorris]

Those of you who teach- how do you work against someone's inflated ego?

Those of you who are training- how do you keep your own ego in check?

I do the first by letting them show me what they know, see how it works for them (results wise) then find the easiest thing they can improve and let them see the results themselves. Once they can see, you can help them improv, if they want to improve, they listen.

I always know there could be someone better out there. Competition shows you that you have to be on your “A“ game, the slightest mistake can cost you a win and no one is perfect all the time.

FWIW I do find girls easier to teach how to shoot. Watch their eyes and see what they are paying attention to. For boys, it’s often the object, I have to shift their attention, if I want to get a point across.

 

[Jeff White]

I coined the term "American Male Syndrome" decades ago. People who suffer from it believe that they left the womb knowing everything they needed to know about fighting, shooting, gun fighting, driving and making love. I start shooting students out with a basic skills assessment to see just what they do know. When teaching tactics to LE I liked to start with an exercise that they can't win just to put everyone in the right mindset.

Often there is someone who that doesn't phase and they become a distraction to the rest of class. There are a few ways of dealing with that, you can bring them upfront and let them embarrass themselves when you ask them to demonstrate or you can use firmer methods up to and including sending them home. Usually if you explain to them that they signed up for the training and they should just follow along and get what they can from it and not disrupt the training experience of the other students they quiet down.

I also find women to be better students because they don't have to unlearn decades of "skills" acquired from Hollywood and now video games.

 

[shafter]

The first thing is to not be a know it all as an instructor. However, you can't depreciate yourself or the trainees will ask themselves why they're learning from you in the first place.

Demonstrate what you expect them to do. Let them know that if they pay attention you can get them there also.

I've found that great instructors seldom have to deal with difficult students. Part of their magic is people want to listen to them. If people don't take you seriously it may be more of an instructor issue than a student issue.

 

[herrwalther]

Anyone can have the "I know everything" ego. Had a student who thought she knew more, so I wanted to see what she could do. I setup a target 15 yards away and gave her two mags for her G22. At this course, instructors held onto ammo until the student is ready to fire. Not a single round hit the target, not even on paper. That humbled her ego more than she let on. Twice a week for almost a year and she became a success story of the training program. After the program she became a SWAT officer for a major metro area and an avid survivalist. I will teach anyone that is willing to learn. But if they don't take my advice, that is just time wasted.

 

[Jack Ryan]

I don't.

"Are you paying me to train you or you to train me? If you want to train me I'll gladly refund your full amount right now because the rest of these people all are paying me to help them and they deserve to get what they paid for."

 

[Old Dog]

Those of you who teach- how do you work against someone's inflated ego?

Patience is #1. And staying calm. The only time you should yell is if someone does something dangerous that's possibly fatal. The only time you should front someone off during class time is if they are being insufferably stupid, wasting training time, and you think you might have to drop them.

Teaching civilians or law enforcement personnel is nothing like teaching military. You can't yell. Even when one student drops her mag on every draw and presentation on every string of fire.

You know it's working when a student/cadet comes up to you after an evolution and says, "How can you be so calm when you're seeing all this stupidity?" For me, it helps that I have always been good about removing my own ego from the equation. Of course, there were times when I'd have to remind myself I had nothing to prove to anyone.

The Socratic method actually works even teaching firearms, especially lethal force concepts. Sometimes asking someone a series of questions, rather than simply lecturing them, will lead them to realize they don't know what they don't know.

the first thing is to not be a know it all as an instructor.

Well, at some point, you do have to make it clear that you know more than the students -- at least as far as the course syllabus, the methods you're teaching, and the expectations of skills the students need to master, You don't have to let them know that you can completely disassemble a Dillon M-134D down to the last pin, bolt and spring, or that you wrote the training manual on ops plans for DEVGRU or whatever. And sometimes it was okay to disclose one was a tactical team leader... In law enforcement, a lot of the folks did disingenuously question the credibility of the instructors. Guys just out of the military did this a lot. "I was in Afghanistan five months ago. So how long have you worked here?"

To be clear, our cadre sometimes brought on ourselves, because we did have some guys with big egos (one instructor who wasted the first hour of each first day reviewing his bio and CV with the class so everyone knew what a big deal he was.

This wasn't so much of an issue when I first started instructing in the military. But two things came into confluence over the past couple decades, the GWOT, which provided a lot of young people extensive combat experience, and the advent of first-person shooter and other action video games. I don't know which is worse as far as affecting someone's ability to understand the requirements for law enforcement and armed citizen carry and use of firearms, which are not close to the ROE when you're humping the Hindu Kush or clearing a block in Fallujah. And learning how to be a patrol officer or an armed citizen legally carrying concealed is nothing like what's depicted in any video games.

Around 2010, I first noticed I'd get challenged in almost every class by one or two of the young males in the academy program, trying to determine my "gunfighting" experience (and therefore, whether or not I was actually worthy of trying to impart my paltry knowledge to them) and resisting some methods we taught. Believing that what they learned in the military or from Uncle Joe at deer camp in Wisconsin was superior to our curriculum. And then there was the guy who argued some aspect of shooting the M-4, as that's not how it was used in "Call of Duty." Seriously.

I got in the habit of taking these guys aside (trying to do it during breaks, but occasionally had to stop the class in the middle of a lecture or course of fire) and calmly explaining to them that their job was to learn all the state statutes applicable to use of deadly force, all the department policies on use of deadly force, our courses of fire, our way of administratively handling firearms, our way of setting up gear, etc., and, on a couple occasions, I had to warn someone that I had the power to recommend their termination for failure to satisfactorily and safely complete the firearms training, and they likely would never work in law enforcement (in our state, at least) afterward.

 

[Old Dog]

I also find women to be better students because they don't have to unlearn decades of "skills" acquired from Hollywood and now video games.

Absolutely! They're typically much better listeners and usually try to the best of their abilities to apply the instruction. I loved teaching female military personnel, later, female officers. As aggravating as women can be once they marry you, they are far better students of serious topics than younger American males.

I forgot to add to my other long-winded post, don't get bogged down in story time. The "know it all" males will only wait for the first opportunity to one-up you. If students want to discuss things in current events, such as the latest controversial OIS, best to save for the breaks.

 

[Scrapiron45]

Our most popular class is a beginner level pistol. Most student problems tend to diminish when the shooting starts and the egos realize they're not the hotshot they thought they were. If they'e distracting enough for any reason to cause safety concerns an instructor will take them aside and offer private instruction or their money back.
Concerning my own ego, I try approach every day and every class with the idea that besides helping the students I'm here to learn something too, maybe a trick from another instructor or something that helps me communicate better with the students.
Women are generally much better students.
I also separate husband and wife teams from each other.

 

[dannyd]

I didn't want to derail a good thread, but someone mentioned young men often being difficult to train, because they think they know everything, even though they have less experience. I get it- there are a lot of American men who go out on the range thinking they're born knowing how to shoot, like we're all direct descendants of Davy Crockett.

Those of you who teach- how do you work against someone's inflated ego?

Those of you who are training- how do you keep your own ego in check?

I have some ideas about it, but I want to hear others' first, because you all probably have better ideas.

Been shooting for 60 years and it's always been like that, so you have to train yourself on what you want accomplish.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

It's not just young men or even young people.

It's people who think they are already good at what you're trying to teach. Seeking more validation than improvement.

Sounds weird that someone would show up to class and not be open to instruction, but it happens.

Everything from "well I've been doing it this way for 40 years!"
To
"[Internet gun celebrity] said that this was the way."
Or
"Well my friend is a [law enforcement guy] and he says..."

A good way to get someone to listen up is to outperform them. Most goofs who think they are the bees knees have never really seen or been pressed for performance.

I find that it's usually a good tactic to acknowledge the point they are making or technique they are using then offer the better solution.

"My husband says to hold the gun tea cup and saucer."
"Right, and that's a decent grip but we have since discovered the 'master grip' and I'd like you try it"

Every once in a while somebody has some off the wall notion that needs correcting ASAP.
I had a guy on the range who was found pointing his revolver at his own belly button while putting rounds in the cylinder.

"Do you always load guns while they are pointing at you?"
He looks down. "Yes."
"Not anymore."

The most important thing about getting a stubborn student to take what your saying is a good read on the personality and disposition of the individual and formulate your comments from there.

Building repor with the group is critical and needs to be a focus of the instructor from the first moment they walk in the door.

Be genuine.
Don't be a windbag instructor.
Don't be an arrogant instructor.
Don't flex your authority unnecessarily.
Keep the class focused on the students development.
Read the room.
Be interested.
Practice what you preach.
Connect with the students as best you can.

 

[Smokin Gator]

It's bad enough when someone's bragging about their shooting abilities, telling you how great they are and you're not at a range. But you'd think that doing the same bragging at the range just before they're going to obviously have to demonstrate how well they can shoot that they would tone it down. Although I guess some inexperienced shooters who haven't seen many others shoot truly believe that they're fantastic shooters.

 

[Kleanbore]

I had been shooting handuns off and on for about forty years when I signed up for a defensive shooting class with some competition shooters from Texas. There were a lot of students, and each shooter received one on one instruction.

The srtarted out having everyone shoot one big bulls-eye target and oobserve that target,and they said"we aren't gning to do that anymore".

We started shooing at steeel plates, as rapidly as possible, withaudio and videao; relading; shooijt again. That's all we did for several hours. They compared the timing and the number of hits on the last dills with those on the first.

I had never done that before, and I could not revert to what iIthought I had known.

That was effective.

 

[scaatylobo]

I didn't want to derail a good thread, but someone mentioned young men often being difficult to train, because they think they know everything, even though they have less experience. I get it- there are a lot of American men who go out on the range thinking they're born knowing how to shoot, like we're all direct descendants of Davy Crockett.

Those of you who teach- how do you work against someone's inflated ego?

Those of you who are training- how do you keep your own ego in check?

I have some ideas about it, but I want to hear others' first, because you all probably have better ideas.

Been a while as retired 16 years.

But I used and gave tribute to Bruce Lee and his line.

You come in here with half a glass of knowledge.

Empty that glass at the door and fill up the 1/2 with my information.

Then when you leave,take the other half you left at the door and your glass is full.

Yes there were still discussions that were not constructive.

In that case I often went "street" on them and told them to swallow that glass and ****.

It worked better in D/T class as it was painfully obvious that I had the technique to back my mouth.

In Firearms it was just a matter of showing the skills !

 

[JeffG]

Those of you who teach- how do you work against someone's inflated ego?

Those of you who are training- how do you keep your own ego in check?

Show your students techniques that are useful. The adult learning model is "Explanation, Demonstration, and Repetition". It may difficult if you have a class of varying skills. Once you establish a baseline in repetition, your more skilled shooters may act as "shadow instructors", pair them with lesser skilled shooters, as long as they are utilizing your taught technique. Give shooters a lull to discuss between courses of fire.

Resist using your own skills as demonstrations, use your skilled shooters, and point out good technique and skill. Humor, good dialogue, partner/team exercises will instill a bit of cohesiveness to the group. Sharing a lunch at a local eatery is pretty useful, too. For advanced/ more skilled shooters, it just might end up being a range day, without much in the line of skill gains. Acknowledge that, and seek their input for future sessions.

These are things that have worked for me.

 

[JN01]

Some instructors think that their way is the ONLY way, but there may be some techniques that are not the best for some students.

A good student should be open minded and follow the instructor to perhaps find a better way.

I've had many different instructors with quite a few variations. I've learned to try things out and keep what works for me.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

It's bad enough when someone's bragging about their shooting abilities, telling you how great they are and you're not at a range. But you'd think that doing the same bragging at the range just before they're going to obviously have to demonstrate how well they can shoot that they would tone it down. Although I guess some inexperienced shooters who haven't seen many others shoot truly believe that they're fantastic shooters.

Usually it's something like "oh wow I have never shot this poorly in my life! My sights must be messed up!" Or something similar.

They get 4 or 5 malfunctions in a 2 hour window of shooting and that has never ever happened before.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Some instructors think that their way is the ONLY way, but there may be some techniques that are not the best for some students.

A good student should be open minded and follow the instructor to perhaps find a better way.

I've had many different instructors with quite a few variations. I've learned to try things out and keep what works for me.

When I attend a course as a student I try my darndest to do exactly as they instruct. I might think it's sub optimal but I'll do it.

I've been surprised enough over the years that it's okay to simply do what I'm told and then take it or leave it after.

 

[shafter]

Patience is #1. And staying calm. The only time you should yell is if someone does something dangerous that's possibly fatal. The only time you should front someone off during class time is if they are being insufferably stupid, wasting training time, and you think you might have to drop them.

Teaching civilians or law enforcement personnel is nothing like teaching military. You can't yell. Even when one student drops her mag on every draw and presentation on every string of fire.

You know it's working when a student/cadet comes up to you after an evolution and says, "How can you be so calm when you're seeing all this stupidity?" For me, it helps that I have always been good about removing my own ego from the equation. Of course, there were times when I'd have to remind myself I had nothing to prove to anyone.

The Socratic method actually works even teaching firearms, especially lethal force concepts. Sometimes asking someone a series of questions, rather than simply lecturing them, will lead them to realize they don't know what they don't know.


Well, at some point, you do have to make it clear that you know more than the students -- at least as far as the course syllabus, the methods you're teaching, and the expectations of skills the students need to master, You don't have to let them know that you can completely disassemble a Dillon M-134D down to the last pin, bolt and spring, or that you wrote the training manual on ops plans for DEVGRU or whatever. And sometimes it was okay to disclose one was a tactical team leader... In law enforcement, a lot of the folks did disingenuously question the credibility of the instructors. Guys just out of the military did this a lot. "I was in Afghanistan five months ago. So how long have you worked here?"

To be clear, our cadre sometimes brought on ourselves, because we did have some guys with big egos (one instructor who wasted the first hour of each first day reviewing his bio and CV with the class so everyone knew what a big deal he was.

This wasn't so much of an issue when I first started instructing in the military. But two things came into confluence over the past couple decades, the GWOT, which provided a lot of young people extensive combat experience, and the advent of first-person shooter and other action video games. I don't know which is worse as far as affecting someone's ability to understand the requirements for law enforcement and armed citizen carry and use of firearms, which are not close to the ROE when you're humping the Hindu Kush or clearing a block in Fallujah. And learning how to be a patrol officer or an armed citizen legally carrying concealed is nothing like what's depicted in any video games.

Around 2010, I first noticed I'd get challenged in almost every class by one or two of the young males in the academy program, trying to determine my "gunfighting" experience (and therefore, whether or not I was actually worthy of trying to impart my paltry knowledge to them) and resisting some methods we taught. Believing that what they learned in the military or from Uncle Joe at deer camp in Wisconsin was superior to our curriculum. And then there was the guy who argued some aspect of shooting the M-4, as that's not how it was used in "Call of Duty." Seriously.

I got in the habit of taking these guys aside (trying to do it during breaks, but occasionally had to stop the class in the middle of a lecture or course of fire) and calmly explaining to them that their job was to learn all the state statutes applicable to use of deadly force, all the department policies on use of deadly force, our courses of fire, our way of administratively handling firearms, our way of setting up gear, etc., and, on a couple occasions, I had to warn someone that I had the power to recommend their termination for failure to satisfactorily and safely complete the firearms training, and they likely would never work in law enforcement (in our state, at least) afterward.

You make good points. The instructor has to have credibility but often what we see today are people using experience as credentials even though the experience doesn't really translate. This happens often with military veterans or occasionally law enforcement who's experience bears no resemblance whatsoever to a civilian application.

Good information is good information.

 

[Jeff White]

Experience doesn’t necessarily make one an instructor. It’s one thing to know how to do something. It’s an entirely different skill set to effectively teach others to do the same task.

The military and here in Illinois, the Law Enforcement Training and Standards Board conduct instructor certification classes that are focused on how to teach.

Often people with a natural ability don’t make good instructors because they either can’t quantify exactly what makes them so good or they don’t know how to teach it to others because it comes natural to them.

In the Army, all NCOs are expected to teach however there is a difference between teaching a basic task to your squad or team who you interact with every day and teaching those same subjects to a new group every time. That’s why there are instructor certification courses and at least in my day, an additional skill identifier awarded to those who graduate those courses.

 

[Old Dog]

but often what we see today are people using experience as credentials even though the experience doesn't really translate. This happens often with military veterans or occasionally law enforcement who's experience bears no resemblance whatsoever to a civilian application.

Entirely correct. So many guys just out of the military "hanging out their shingle" as firearms training instructors often based solely on their military experience. I took a weekend class (out of curiosity mostly, and also for the opportunity to shoot 500 rounds) from one of these guys at a nice facility in my region, and some of the "instruction" was truly cringeworthy; I was biting my tongue all weekend. Incredibly, a few of the students raved about the instructor, probably because they were so in awe of his "operator" background.

Experience doesn’t necessarily make one an instructor. It’s one thing to know how to do something. It’s an entirely different skill set to effectively teach others to do the same task.

That so bears repeating. Just because you're a great shooter doesn't make you a great instructor (unless you're Rob Leatham).

 

[FL-NC]

Task, condition, standards, and a pro-timer take no prisoners. Bonus points for incorporating cardio and low light.

 

[Old Dog]

Bonus points for incorporating cardio and low light.

Cardio is the great equalizer. I liked to introduce a 50-yard sprint to begin a string of fire. Was fun to watch. And low light is an epiphany for most, at least for those serious about learning and improving their skills.

 

[jstert]

regardless of someone’s accuracy or physical condition, if you can’t take to heart the 4 rules of gun safety i want no part of you with a gun.

 

[psyopspec]

I didn't want to derail a good thread, but someone mentioned young men often being difficult to train, because they think they know everything, even though they have less experience. I get it- there are a lot of American men who go out on the range thinking they're born knowing how to shoot, like we're all direct descendants of Davy Crockett.

Those of you who teach- how do you work against someone's inflated ego?

Those of you who are training- how do you keep your own ego in check?

I have some ideas about it, but I want to hear others' first, because you all probably have better ideas.

I go through a mental exercise before each training class to dedicate myself to opening my mind. Every technique, tactic, and habit can be on the table to try something new as long there are no safety issues. If I wanted to keep doing things the way I've been doing them without reflecting on it or evolving, then why go?