Korriphila HSP 701

[Walt Sherrill]

FLG and I once ran a test with a moderately well fitted 1911 in the Ransom Rest. Tight barrel fit, merely close slide fit.
We shot it like that, then we ran a string of fire laying the gun for each shot with a scope sight in V blocks on top of the slide. Accuracy was markedly better when the gun was aimed.

If the gun is otherwise well fit and locks up consistently, aimed fire can give stellar results -- if the shooter does his/her part.

If the gun in the Ransom Rest had a "merely close fit", and the target is far enough away from the target to justify a scope, there can be a enough slide movement from side to side to greatly affect group size!

A slide with 6" sight radius that is fit such that there is just .007 of an inch movement in either/both direction(s) in a Ransom Rest test, fired at a target 25 yards away, that amount of movement can increase group size by as much as 2" more than the same gun doing aimed fire. That's because in aimed fire -- using a gun with the optic mounted on the slide (not on the frame) that slide/barrel/frame position variance doesn't come into play (as it would in an unaimed Ransom Rest evaluation). The shooter, however, has to be nearly as consistent as the Ransom Rest mechanism, and that's easier said than done.

With a frame-mounted optic, you may see the target more clearly, but you won't necessarily be more accurate -- unless slide/frame fit is very tight.

 

[Jim Watson]

Perhaps I was not clear.
We set the gun up in the Ransom Rest, shot it some to "settle" it in the rubber adapters, then put a scope in V blocks on top of the slide. We tweaked the rest base adjustments to center, lifted off the scope, and pushed the trigger bar. Back to the scope and V blocks, tweak back to center if needed, repeat.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Perhaps I was not clear.
We set the gun up in the Ransom Rest, shot it some to "settle" it in the rubber adapters, then put a scope in V blocks on top of the slide. We tweaked the rest base adjustments to center, lifted off the scope, and pushed the trigger bar. Back to the scope and V blocks, tweak back to center if needed, repeat.

I guess you were clear -- but I was focused what you did, not how you did it -- and went from there.

You readjusted the gun between shots, and that is functionally the same as having the sight mounted on the slide in an appropriate slide mount. That is NOT the normal practice with a Ransom Rest evaluation -- where the mechanical precision of the gun is being evaluated without human intervention.

(The following comments are for others reading, here -- as I'm sure you know all of this.)

Implicit in that Ransom Rest evaluation is the assumption that the gun is physically returning to the same place with each shot (or as close to that as is mechanically possible) -- such that human intervention isn't needed. That was obviously NOT the case in a session where the gun is resighted between shots. The slide fit may have been the issue -- or inserts that didn't work quite as well as they should. (The inserts/adapters are typically very hard rubber or nylon, with very little give.)

Clearly, sighted fire was better than the alternative in your case.

Some years back I had a SIG P210-6 that came from the factory with a proof target showing a 1.75" five-shot group at 50 meters (roughly 55 yards.) Those targets are created using a Ransom Rest (or similar device.) While I was impressed with that level of precision, I've since seen other P-210 proof targets that had sub-1" groups at the same distance. There can't be much "play" in the mounts/inserts to get that sort of mechanical consistency; SIG probably uses a weapon-specific rest (and NOT inserts) for that sort of test. Back then the P-210s were made in Switzerland, and the X-Five series hadn't been developed, yet. I doubt that aimed fire could improve much on that sub-1" sort of precision.

 

[Jim Watson]

Yes, we had good accuracy out of tight fit guns, but there was always a little sneaking doubt, was it as good as it could be? The next step would have been rigid inserts made to fit one particular accurized pistol.

Also, our aiming setup would allow checking the barrel fit and ammo quality.
If aiming in the rest gave a ten ring group with a gun having only barrel to slide fit, and depending on return to battery gave a ten ring group with a fully tightened gun, then they would be equal for handheld shooting by however skilled a shooter.

 

[Onmilo]

That is just plain awesome...

 

[bc1023]

Thank you, sir

 

[Orion8472]

bc1023 has a LOT of awesome pistols, and you can probably find them with the search function. An amazing collection.

 

[bc1023]

bc1023 has a LOT of awesome pistols, and you can probably find them with the search function. An amazing collection.

Thanks. Much appreciated,

 

[Combat Engineer]

Started collecting years ago, WW1 era (1914-1918) handguns. Was amazed by the high quality products: Colt, J.P. Sauer & Sohn, Mauser, Steyr, Walther, et al. Many are true fixed barrel blowbacks, beautifully made, accurate too. The handguns pictured upstream remind me of old world craftsmanship from that bygone era.

Edgar Budischowsky was looking to create the world's finest semi-auto pistol, and arguably succeeded . How can you not like a true fixed barrel, roller bearing blowback? Willi Korth was looking to build the world's highest quality aesthetic semi-auto, and triumphed. Form vs. function? Wouldn't mind either as a carry gun.

But this poverty stricken soul has to make do with a modest 1911, just a humble daily carry, a Les Baer... and nicely blued it is too... you recall a time when there was real-deal blue? ...that is now today a matte black paint as attractive as a crowbar.

"The 1911 is a great design. Its a shame the market is so flooded with them." [bc1023]

Ouch!


PS: Yes there are a lot of 1911s out there, and very few that match (or surpass) the superb examples from those two great minds.

 

[bc1023]

Edgar Budischowsky was looking to create the world's finest semi-auto pistol, and arguably succeeded . How can you not like a true fixed barrel, roller bearing blowback? Willi Korth was looking to build the world's highest quality aesthetic semi-auto, and triumphed. Form vs. function? Wouldn't mind either as a carry gun.

Those would be a couple expensive carry guns for sure.

 

[Combat Engineer]

I ask myself: what handgun do I want to stop a deadly attack?

I want the very best I can afford... and if that's a 45 cal Korriphila, then that's what it is... after the smoke clears I cannot say that I did not use my best gun.

 

[Billy Shears]

I ask myself: what handgun do I want to stop a deadly attack?

I want the very best I can afford... and if that's a 45 cal Korriphila, then that's what it is... after the smoke clears I cannot say that I did not use my best gun.

Not to be contentious, but that answer is just a bit facile. First off, most expensive does not necessarily equal best. Is the Korriphila any better, in a practical sense, than a Glock that can be had for one tenth the price? Is it more reliable? Has anyone ever fired enough rounds though one of these guns enough to know? Would anyone ever put a gun like this through the torture tests that people have put Glocks through? Love 'em or hate 'em, Glocks are incredibly well-proven, reliable pistols. They are more than accurate enough for combat use, simple and user-friendly in their manual of operations, and as reliable as any pistol money can buy.

The Korriphila may be as reliable, but who knows? With its fixed barrel, and precise machining, it probably is at least equal, and perhaps better in terms of accuracy. But again, you don't need Olympic target pistol accuracy from a combat gun. And would you train as hard with a $5000 pistol? Drop those rare and expensive magazines on concrete range floors?

I've always wanted one of these guns, but I really don't feel the need to carry one for self defense -- and then have the police take it into evidence if I ever use it to defend myself.

 

[bc1023]

I ask myself: what handgun do I want to stop a deadly attack?

I want the very best I can afford... and if that's a 45 cal Korriphila, then that's what it is... after the smoke clears I cannot say that I did not use my best gun.

Well, I doubt you could ever find a finer pistol. I own many, many guns and I feel pretty confident in saying that.

That being said, I'd hate to have to use it and then lose it. They can't really be replaced.

 

[barnbwt]

Billy, why in the hell would anyone interested in something like the Korriphila even consider Glock as an alternative? I know fans of a platform often have trouble imagining that others could value traits in which it is lacking, but try.

-Overall impeccable quality
-Gorgeous aesthetics
-Solid construction
-Reliability (see quality and construction; the guns are not only likely to be, but when in production were guaranteed to be reliable, just like any other high-end custom gun)
-Ergonomics (often a personal taste, but an area in which Glock often falters but which this gun may in fact excel)
-Accuracy (fixed barrel plus tight tolerances means this gun will be sufficiently accurate for anything like defense, not to mention the trigger)
-Exposed hammer
-Lastly status/allure. Not something that many folks appreciate, but it is a very real quality than 'common' guns lack, and that devotees value highly.

It's like the guy in the other thread saying a Ruger GP100 is just as good a shooter as a Manurhin MR73. There's just some things you can't appreciate or recognize remotely, but only in person.

TCB

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I want the very best I can afford... and if that's a 45 cal Korriphila, then that's what it is... after the smoke clears I cannot say that I did not use my best gun.

I was about to reply much as Billy Shear did, but he probably said it better than I could have. This brings us back to what BEST means. That clearly depends on HOW the weapon is to be used...

As the owner of the .45 now seems to use his guns, these guns are prized possessions, shown to friends who might appreciate them; he probably caresses them now and then (I suspect I would), and, maybe shoots one of them from time to time, but is unlikely to do more with them.

It's like owning a completely restored prize-winning SHOW CAR: you may drive it once in a while, but it's not an everyday driver. You won't drive it on a long trip, you won't drive it to the grocery store, to work, or to the doctor's office. If you take it to compete in a car show, you'll probably haul it in a trailer.

Because these gun aren't being made any more, and because replacement parts are going to be rare or made of "unobtainium," parts, if needed, will have to be MADE by a custom gunsmith. Given that, you're going to leave it in the gun safe (or vault) than than shoot it a lot; you're realistically not going to CARRY it in daily use, it's not likely to be found in a bedside drawer, and you're not going to practice with it a lot to develop the level of proficiency needed to protect you or yours. It may be the BEST gun out there, but its unlikely you'll ever be able to find out. But beautiful, without question.

Put simply, there are too many other guns out there that would serve the gun owner in that PRACTICAL role BETTER than the Korriphila (or other guns of that ilk). Those other guns will let the owner do what has to be done for a fraction of the cost, for less risk of value loss, and possibly will perform with KNOWN -- and perhaps superior -- durability. Many of the other guns may have a substantially greater capacity, and be as, or almost as, accurate. You don't have to spend a fortune to get a durable, accurate, practical weapon. The less costly but durable, accurate, and pratical weapons won't be pulled out of the safe to be shown and fondled and appreciated.

 

[bc1023]

...which is why I never called it the "best" of anything.

I said it was the "finest" I knew of. By finest, I'm talking about parts quality and build quality. I'm talking refinement and fit and finish. The roller-delayed blow back design is pretty fine too, in my opinion.

In just talking "fine", I'm sure what really measures up to the Korriphila. It sets the standards pretty high.

 

[bc1023]

I honestly never understood the old "let's compare it to a Glock" mindset that so often plagues threads about high end pistols. While I can't speak for everyone, the very LAST thing on my mind is whether or not my recently purchased rare, exotic pistol is going to win a torture test against a $500 plastic gun.

It means nothing to me, so I honestly couldn't care less. Besides that, I own a half dozen Glocks along with many other polymers. If I didn't like them, I wouldn't own so many. However, I know what they offer and what they do.

They are good guns, but my passion is for stuff like the pistols in this thread and many others like them.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Agreed: you weren't the one making the point being contested -- Combat Engineer was. I would note, however, that in the dictionary, the terms FINEST and BEST are virtual synonyms:

adjective, finer, finest.
1. of superior or best quality; of high or highest grade

adjective, superl. of good with better as compar.
1. of the highest quality, excellence, or standing:
the best work...

You have, from the first, been consistently focused on the level of craftsmanship demonstrated and the other types of refinement that makes them unique. I understand and agree with your assessments.

And just because someone owns a beautiful, functional Tiffany Lamp, that doesn't mean he or she would choose to use it in their work shop or on a kitchen counter. There are arguably better lights for those tasks.

 

[bc1023]

Thanks Walt.

Best can mean the finest, but it can also mean other things as well.

 

[tarosean]

I honestly never understood the old "let's compare it to a Glock" mindset that so often plagues threads about high end pistols.

Just ignore the stupidity. What they fail to realize is people buy different things for different reasons. Likely the same people who compare their Kia to a hand built McLaren P1, etc.

 

[Combat Engineer]

"Not to be contentious, but that answer is just a bit facile. " [Billy Shears]

Billy, you're just not getting it. I have 3 plastic carry pistols that all shoot sub - 1", but prefer to carry, say, a custom shop Baer or custom shop S&W 22-4... why? for some mysterious reason, the experience is different, and can only be matched or surpassed by a select number of specialized handguns.

"I've always wanted one of these guns, but I really don't feel the need to carry one for self defense -- and then have the police take it into evidence if I ever use it to defend myself. " [Ibid]

"I'd hate to have to use it and then lose it. They can't really be replaced. " [bc1023]

Well it may sound trite... but, if its saved a life then its done its job. Which is the main reason to carry the best I can afford.

"It's like owning a completely restored prize-winning SHOW CAR: you may drive it once in a while, but it's not an everyday driver. You won't drive it on a long trip, you won't drive it to the grocery store, to work, or to the doctor's office. If you take it to compete in a car show, you'll probably haul it in a trailer. " [Walt Sherrill]

When I was a working man my daily runner was a Lotus, today, retired, have slowed down, daily drive is a 1948 Chevy. Mechanical clutch, pneumatic wipers, leaf springs, foot starter motor, hand throttle, etc. ... and just the other day had to make a replacement part from scratch... to keep the time capsule going.

"...brings us back to what BEST means. " [Ibid]

Best means best.

Best to you.


PS: Any good gunsmith can fashion a replacement part from scratch, that's what a good gunsmith does.

 

[bc1023]

Well it may sound trite... but, if its saved a life then its done its job. Which is the main reason to carry the best I can afford.

I guess I can understand where you're coming from, but I'd get a bit nervous toting an $8-$9,000 pistol around on my belt all day.

That's just me though.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

"...brings us back to _what *BEST *means._ " [Ibid]

Best means best.

Best to you.

Yes. But best WHAT?: best craftsmanship/fit and finish? Best aesthetic appeal, capacity, durability, ease of use, carry weight, concealability, sight design, ease of operation, accuracy...? Or all of the above, in one gun?

bc1023's guns are clearly gunsmithing works of art. We can probably make some assumptions about how well they perform, but they will remain assumptions -- as nobody is foolish enough to test the gun in question thoroughly enough prove that the qualities being evaluated are the best. There is no question that gun's fit and finish is stellar, for example, but we don't know how well it will handle various brands of hollow-point ammo -- and I suspect that bc1023 has little reason to use HP ammo at the range or elsewhere.

I'd argue that no firm or custom gunsmith can incorporate the BEST of all those (and other) qualities in one gun or one design; the shooter has to pick the qualities that are most appropriate for the gun's intended use, and in doing so will be forced to make some practical compromises. The shooter will put emphasis on some qualities and pay less attention to others. I think bc1023 has done that, and is happy with his choices.

A Lotus may have been your car of choice for a daily drive, but if you regularly had to haul several adult car pool members (or a wife and kids) for any distance on a daily basis, you would have ended up driving something different. More importantly, if parts weren't readily available (as is likely be the case in many parts of the country) you'd either have a supply of backup parts on hand, or a back up car available. Guns and cars are a lot alike in that sense. And, as you say, that Lotus is now retired...

Well it may sound trite... but, if its saved a life then its done its job. Which is the main reason to carry the best I can afford.

Not really trite, but of questionable value. You could also say that if you used a pointed stick.

Tell us what THE BEST YOU CAN AFFORD TO CARRY means. I'll bet your "best" and bc1023's "best" are quite a bit different.

 

[Combat Engineer]

"I'd get a bit nervous toting an $8-$9,000 pistol around on my belt all day." [bc1023]

I would enjoy the piece of mind plus if its carried it won't get burgled. The perps would have take it from me, which would be a fine test for the best semi-auto pistol in the world.

"... toting an $8-$9,000 pistol around..." [Ibid]

Wow! Didn't realize they were that affordable. My catalog does not have a listing for a Korriphila, but for a Korth the price is $20,000.00

Belt carry, really bc, a Korriphila should be carried in a shoulder holster. Leather, not synthetic. Substance demands style.

"...But best WHAT?: best craftsmanship/fit and finish? Best aesthetic appeal, capacity, durability, ease of use, carry weight, concealability, sight design, ease of operation, accuracy...? Or all of the above, in one gun? " [Walt Sherrill]

The latter.

"Tell us what THE BEST YOU CAN AFFORD TO CARRY means." [Ibid]

Answered in post #59 & #71.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Or all of the above, in one gun? " [Walt Sherrill]

The latter.

No such weapon exists.

The BEST for YOU (i.e., that you can afford) will be some combination of good-enough in some categories, and better or best in still others. It likely won't be a Korriphila. It will be a compromise -- and that may suit you but won't necessarily suit someone else. It will not be the BEST of "all of the above, in one gun."