Law enforcement transition to semi-autos... What took them so long?

[flakbait]

Most police departments in the US began to transition from the traditional double action revolver to the semiauto pistol in the late 1980s and early 1990s. This event coincided with the US military adoption of the Beretta M9 in 1985.

The advantages of a semiauto pistol over a revolver has always been magazine capacity (more bullets) and faster reloads (magazines vs speedloaders). The only police still carrying revolvers as their primary sidearm today are those officers nearing their retirement.

Since semiauto pistols have been around since the early 1900s and the US fought 2 world wars, Korea, and Vietnam with the 1911, why did the revolver stick around for so long in law enforcement. Bad guys were often well armed in the past i.e. Bonnie and Clyde, Al Capone, etc... Pistols with double stack magazines became more prevent in the 1940s with the Browning Hi Power and various 9 MM pistols appearing later such as the Smith and Wesson 39/59 series. Revolvers were always thought to be more reliable than pistols. However, every major combatant of WWII abandoned revolvers and chose pistols with the exception of Great Britain (they lacked the cash).

What made police departments wake up to the possibility that six shots and one speedloader might not be enough to win a gunfight lead to the widespread adoption of semiauto pistols?

 

[loadedround]

Basically the police dpartments wer finding themselves outgunned by the druggie pushers and gang baggers who were all carrying the "hi cap" wonder nines. Six shot revolvers versus a 13+ 9mm was just not a level playing field and good cops were getting shot. That's it period!

 

[JohnBiltz]

A lot of it was liability concerns. DA revolvers are safe guns, reliable too and .357 is a really good round. There were not that many autos that had high capacity either. SA pistols like BHP were never going to go widespread because of concerns for accidental discharges just like 1911s and honestly they were not that reliable with JHP back then. S&W 39s were beginning to chip at it but they were single stacks. I think given the choice back then sticking with the .357 was a valid choice. Then the wonder 9s hit and everything changed. And really they changed pretty quick after that with some exceptions.

 

[Ala Dan]

Basically, what loadedround said, "during the early 80's we had to fight
fire with fire" so to speak. I broke into law enforcement in 1977, and just 'bout
every deputy sheriff/police officer was carrying a revolver of some sort. Along
'bout 1980, things started to change. Most LEO's in uniform have carried many
semi-auto's over the years; starting out with a Smith & Wesson model 39 or
39-2. From there, came S&W's model 59, Browning's Hi-Power, SIG's P226,
etc. All were chambered for the 9m'm Parabellum (Luger) cartridge. Some
of us even call the high capacity weapons "Wonder Nines". Then Glock's
model 17 and 19 arrived on the scene; and everybody have too have one;
including all of the drug dealer's, gang banger's, war lords, etc. These types
read into the hype of Winchester's "Black Talon" ammo; of "hit in the pinky
finger, and the doctor will have too take off the whole arm"~! Studies very
quickly proved that to be incorrect; as "Black Talons" are nothing more than
a fancy name, for a bullet of hollow point configuration. Then, along 'bout
1994 Bro Klinton (purposedly mis-spelled) got involved in the BT debate; and
Winchester voluntarily pulled it from the shelves. Some of you also may
remember Mr. David Keene of Signature Products LTD in Huntsville, AL~?
He was the designer to "Rhino" and "Black Rhino" ammuntion. Briefly in
business, his goods were also pulled from the shelves. Reason given-
"Politically Incorrect".

 

[Shawn Dodson]

All the way up through the late 1980s there were issues with hollowpoint handgun ammunition design that affected reliability of auto pistols. Automatic pistol bullet design was, in most cases, a direct carry over from revolver bullet design - the bullets were SEMI jacketed (SJHP) with exposed lead at the nose, which jammed on feed ramps.

Revolvers were simply more reliable. They didn't jam with SJHP bullets.

It wasn't until jacketed hollwopoint (JHP) bullets came into being that feeding reliability increased, but early designs didn't reliably expand and performed like FMJ bullets. One of the first reliably expanding JHP bullets was Winchester Silvertip, which used a aluminum jacket. Arguably next was HydraShok. The CCI Lawman .45 ACP 200gr "flying ashtray" JHP also had a good reputation for fairly reliable expansion performance.

Improvements in ammunition design combined with the violent street wars over crack cocaine in the 80's and 90's seemed to be the major impetus for the acceptance of the auto pistol for law enforcement in the US.

I carried a S&W M28 Highway Patrolman .357 Magnum revolver when I first began patrolling.

 

[hardworker]

It's probably because most police agencies don't ever have epic shootouts. Plenty of cops back then never drew their gun more than a couple of times their whole career.

 

[flakbait]

So does the answer simply boil down to technological developments?

1. More reliable expanding ammunition JHP that actually feed well from magazines and expanded--The military is stuck with FMJ bullets so they don't care able this aspect

2. Very reliable double stack magazine guns such as the Glock 17, Sig Sauer 226, and Beretta 92.

Was there a big incident or event that prompted law enforcement to move towards this transition?

Even in the infamous Miami-Dade shootout of 1986 betweem two well armed bank robbers and FBI agents, the majority of the FBI agents were carrying 357 magnum revolvers despite the FBI acceptance of 9 MM semiautos. Every single agent in the that gunfight ran out of ammo. I'm sure after that incident, medium frame .357 revolvers were retired quickly in the FBI service.

 

[Old Fuff]

Besides what's been mentioned, many departments (or whatever level of government they worked for) didn't want to pay the costs related to cross-training from one kind of handgun to another. Then some worried (with some justification) that if an officer had a panic attack and dumped a whole large-cap magazine as fast as he/she could pull the trigger, some bottom feeding lawyers would have a field day. Also not all departments were in the middle of fighting a drug war. Unintended discharges were somewhat less likely because the correct "remove magazine and then clear the chamber," drill couldn't be done backwards. Last but not least, if you see how some officers take care of their sidearms one can see why revolvers continued to be prefered.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Even in the infamous Miami-Dade shootout of 1986 betweem two well armed bank robbers and FBI agents, the majority of the FBI agents were carrying 357 magnum revolvers despite the FBI acceptance of 9 MM semiautos. Every single agent in the that gunfight ran out of ammo. I'm sure after that incident, medium frame .357 revolvers were retired quickly in the FBI service.

I think if you do a bit more research, you find that two agents were armed with double stack 9mms (S&W M59) and several of the agents were shot before they ran out of ammo. although it has been framed otherwise, the Miami-Dade shooting was a failure of tactics rather than equipment or caliber.

 

[Zerodefect]

The news this year is scary.

-cop see snake in bird feeder, cop shoots snake, kid fishing on boat dock dies, snake gets away.

-restrained dog shooting:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/06/video-shows-missouri-cop-shooting-restrained-bulldog/

-who needs a proper holster when I'm a trained PD:
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...24-20100324_1_off-duty-weapon-safety-officers

-"she was coming right at me!, in her sleep"
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2010/05/detroit_police_say_7-year-old.html

-I can't even read this, I don't have enough duct tape to wrap my head with:
http://www.optacinternational.com/officersafety/pdfs/WhyAreWeKillingOurselves.pdf

-that's less than 5 min of google. Spending more time, looking at more credible news sources, makes it seem even worse. The stuff that gets dug up by the hivemind at arfcom is far worse.

My point is, don't follow what the cops do and think it is good advice. They can't even get repeat the 5 safety rules most of the time. They stuck to revolvers because they are harder to screw up. Alot of the ones I trained with should have only originally been issued pointy sticks.

PD bashing is bad form, but maybe I can PO enough of them into getting some better training.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

What made police departments wake up to the possibility that six shots and one speedloader might not be enough to win a gunfight lead to the widespread adoption of semiauto pistols?

As noted, there was a perceived need for more firepower. However, this had been hinted at in the 1930s and was not enough to spur the change. Many police departments, like a lot of government agencies, tend to be tradition-based and go with with they know and what has been familiar to them historically. In other words, they have been slow to change.

I always thought it strange, up into the 1970s, that patrol officers in many departments wore dress shoes as part of their uniforms, often smooth leather-soled dress shoes. While they looked good, they were terrible for foot pursuits and for use in the rain.

 

[gwnorth]

You'd think some of it was also just plain budgets and economics. Until the bean counters were convinced there was some truly compelling reason to switch over, what department was going to get the budget funds to completely toss their armories, and re-stock with autoloaders, parts, magazines, not to mention training department armorers and so forth. Like any bureaucratic decision, the money for change typically only comes when push goes to shove.

 

[918v]

The change took so long because the individual officers, for the most part, preferred revolvers. Cops are not gun fanatics like we are. They don't shoot as often as we do. They don't like change. If the majority of a PD does not want autos, why would a PD force everyone to switch? You'll end up with a cross-training nightmare and a bunch of disgruntled officers.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Ever worked for a police department? Tradition, stubborness, non-progressive thinking, combined with naivity and some administrators with "know-it-all" attitudes are just a few of the things you have to overcome to make a change. Am I being too negative? Sometimes I can't tell........

 

[MICHAEL T]

Well when the cops carried Revolvers we didn't have 2 or 3 cops shooting near a 100 rounds and slightly wounding the BG. Like is pretty common to day .The police are worst at spray and pray. Even more than the BG's. I believe they need to return to the revolver , for the safety of general public. All those missed rounds go some where. . Accidental discharges went up with auto's in some cases killing civilians .
Police are not in wild shoot outs 24/7 like the some would like you to believe. A 357 would serve very well for the majority of street officers. But then they wouldn't look tact cool . And that important if you a LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER . What ever happened to the Police and protect and SERVE . Seems that went way of the revolver ,real uniform also.

Many LEO's today seem to think their some kind of commando in their dress and attitude towards people. They need to be reminded they have been given the power to police by the people who their suppose to protect and serve. They are not their to make and enforce their own laws like some seem to think. Their to much of the US against Them attitude in to days law enforcement .

 

[Philo_Beddoe]

1) Much easier to train new recruits on revolvers

2)Revolvers were more reliable the old semi autos (1911 & HP were designed for FMJ and used to require action jobs to feed HP reliably), they early smiths were not that impressive.

3) An aversion to cocked and locked on the part of police cheifs, still that way today, Glock didnt really make ground until the FBI declared them to be double action and almost all police depts day utilized double action guns.

ITs my understanding that the push to semi-autos was spearheaded by police unions at large metro police depts who rank and file were being outgunned by crooks. Alot of cheifs were very conservative and had to be pushed into accepting the auto pistol.

 

[MedWheeler]

Michael T has it down. Cops are/were trained in strategy and shot placement (to "make very shot count".) The idea, which worked well, by the way, was to withhold fire until a shot could be made, not to send a dozen-plus rounds in the general direction of the bad guy, then take a peek to see if you hit anything.
The adoption of autoloaders really didn't come around until police work became dominated by a new generation of cops who were more into acquiring what was perceived as better equipment than into upgraded training. Yes, the transition would have eventually happened, and for the right reasons, but it probably really wasn't necessary before then. Most cops killed in the line of duty lose their lives through circumstances other than simply running dry, accumulations of circumstances that result in lapses in strategy and judgment.
I started in LE in wheelgun times, then made the transition when changing agencies. However, the better strategies that cops are being trained in now lagged behind equipment upgrades, and these strategies and techniques are far more effective at keeping cops alive than the equipment itself is. (True, some of that training does focus on utilizing the features of that equipment.)

 

[trbon8r]

It is funny how so many experts on the internet proclaim to be an authority on tactics, policy, and the level of professionalism (or claimed lack of) shown by the police. Of course these are the same people that have never put on a police uniform or worked a day as an officer. I think a lot of it stems from frustration from those that couldn't make the cut as a police officer, or always wanted to but never had the nerve to try.

Gotta run. Krispy Kreme has a donut special, and I need to see if there are any neighborhood dogs I can indiscriminately shoot.

 

[rscalzo]

I have to laugh at some of the reasoning. Most is based on internet lore with zero factuial basis.

that's less than 5 min of google

Easy to do when you can be selective. Finding incidents in general isn't hard. In fact today...http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39417580/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts
Should I say some private citizens shouldn't have anything beyond a pointed stick? While you point out that you are so much better than any LE, it's odd that two of the best in the country at local LE from NJ??? Go figure. I guess using selective data, you can in your own mind justify anything.

Why didn't agencies change? Why should they? They had functional firearms for the most part in the early eighties. Should they eat into limited budgets to re-equip employees. NJ did so after a Trooper was lost due to being outgunned. But guees what? Someone always has a bigger gun somewhere, some time.

As far as "pray and spray", care to back it up? Probably the most extensive study done in years was the NYPD SOP-9.Done over a period when the city had revolvers and SA, the average "shot per officer" went from 2.4 to 2.7. While it's easy to make uninformed commentws on the internet, backing them up with valid data isn't.

Philo had it right based on the thinking at that time.

Comments of accuracy usuall7y come from some that have never done much more than fire at a static Q target. Unfortunatly, the real world isn't a paper target capable of nothing more than a paper cut.

Cops are/were trained in strategy and shot placement (to "make very shot count".)

True. they were training in targets shooting that had zero applicability to the real world. At one time we used standard NRA MNC targets and single action.

But getting back to the original question... Why the lag? budgets for one. But speaking for my department where I along with one other person pushed through the change was this. The upper levels of administration were brought up on revolvers. At the time the Chief carried a Python and could shoot with the best of them. No one likes change. But more importantly, what would you change to? This was the early 80's. Glock was still a dream at this point. So there was the 2nd. gen S&W, Baretta 92 and the SIG line. Berretta and Sig were still foreign companies and the costs of an imported handgun was significantly higher. The S&W 39 had limited acceptence in the NJ area but at 8 rounds, it was a limited improvement. The 659 was finally chosen based on cost, availability and functioning. Some of those are still in service.


NOTE: For the record, can't stand Duncan Donut or Krispy Cream. I'd kill for Tim Horton's coffee though.

 

[Cosmoline]

The semis available prior to the advent of the wondernines were either military single actions such as the BHP and 1911 or low-cap da/sa's in 9x19 at most. Many, including most used by European police forces, were in .32 ACP or 9x18. The military sa's were out due to the perceived risks and the ammo limitations. The low cap da/sa's didn't offer any great firepower advantage--maybe one more round. And the chambering of 9mm was very much inferior to the .357 bullet-for-bullet. So what would have been gained?

It was only with the advent of high capacity semis that they began to outperform revolvers. And even that's a questionable conclusion. Personally I'd take a Python over any semi.

the majority of the FBI agents were carrying 357 magnum revolvers

True, but they were shooting .38 Special +P and going against foes with long guns.

 

[918v]

It is funny how so many experts on the internet proclaim to be an authority on tactics, policy, and the level of professionalism (or claimed lack of) shown by the police. Of course these are the same people that have never put on a police uniform or worked a day as an officer. I think a lot of it stems from frustration from those that couldn't make the cut as a police officer, or always wanted to but never had the nerve to try.

Gotta run. Krispy Kreme has a donut special, and I need to see if there are any neighborhood dogs I can indiscriminately shoot.

Are you suggesting the average cop shoots better than the average internet expert?

I dunno. I know how the average cop shoots. I know how the average female cop shoots. Pathetic.

And the reason the PD cannot raise the accuracy standard is because the police unions will not permit poor shooters to be disciplined and/or terminated. If they can get inside the 7 ring with 70% of their shots they pass. And that is standing still. Just imagine them moving and shooting.

All they are good for is to lay down cover fire and you can't do that in an urban setting.