Lazzeroni rifles. Which one to get?

[270Win]

Frankly, I'm quite surprised an Orthodox Jew is even going on a safari in which animals will likely be killed.

Though you only said he raised his daughter in that tradition, he's certainly not practicing what he preaches. Hunting for sport (read: safari) is frowned on majorly by virtually all Talmudic scholars, as the Orthodox believe that all killing outside of food-to-eat is immoral, and shooting an animal isn't kosher, which rules that out.

In fact, I believe hunting for sport may in fact be outright forbidden by Orthodox Jewish law; I've been friends with several Orthodox Jews over the years, and this is something that's come up more than once when firearms are discussed. I'm not Jewish myself, but this is what I've been told several times. Compassion towards animals is a big thing in Orthodoxy.

Aside from that, though, good luck with this whole affair. Wide gulfs in religion can be tough to cross, but it sounds like you two are committed. Let us know how it turns out!

 

[HankB]

Sounds like you found a couple of loads that work . . . still, I suggest you pick up at least a box or so of "solids" for your .375 just in case your PH recommends you use them on the buff.

You still need to practice like heck from field positions and set aside the ammo you're taking on safari - again, call the airline and find out what their rules are for traveling with firearms and ammo.

Good luck.

 

[Metapotent]

Thats a good point 270 win, I was unaware that there were teachings against hunting for sport in Orthodox Judaism, so maybe that means he disregards other certain teachings that are up for personal interpretation?

Hank B, I've seen "Solid Sledghammer" loads from Federal Premium but what is the difference from a regular bonded bullet? Is it just a big chunk of lead with no jacket?

 

[HankB]

"Sledgehammer Solids" . . . the "Sledgehammer" is a trademark or brand name for a type of "solid" bullet originally designed by Jack Carter of Trophy Bonded Bullets. It's essentially a very heavy jacket with a small flat meplat on the front, with a lead core bonded inside to add weight. (Lead is denser than jacket metal.) A solid's jacket is closed at the front and sides, open to the back. "Softpoint" bullets, (generally speaking, there are a number of exceptions) have exposed lead at the front and a much thinner jacket than solids, this construction serving to facilitate expansion.

As with all solids, the idea is that the bullet will not deform when hitting African (or other) game, but will continue to drive on straight through, undeviated. The flat meplat is supposed to increase shocking power and provide for straighter post-impact bullet travel. How much is hype and how much is fact is subject to debate, but the bullets have a good reputation.

Speer's "African Grand Slam" solids outwardly resemble the "Sledgehammers" but have a tungsten carbide core, rather than lead. I've used those on hippo and a couple of Cape buffalo with good results, but AFAIK they're not available other than as loaded components. The Sledghammer solids are what I'd try first if I were using factory ammo, and if they shot well in my rifle, I'd quit looking. For a hunt as you describe, probably ten or so "solids" would be plenty, for use ONLY on the buff, and then in situations where a "pass through" is not likely to hit another animal.

 

[Metapotent]

HankB thanks for clearing that up for me.

But that seems kind of odd to me to choose a non-expanding bullet. That would only leave a .375 inch hole in the beast when I want the bullet to expand to alteast half an inch to facilitate rapid bloodloss and tissue damage. I don't think a bonded bullet would expand too rapidly to the point that it wouldn't penetrate a buffalo or other large game even after hitting ribs/bone. I shot an elk through the shoulder with my .270 150gr SP and it didn't fragment and it penetrated a good 14 inches.

Do you think a solid would be a wiser choice than a bonded bearclaw?

 

[HankB]

Metapotent, bullets which expand do so at the expense of penetration. They also may not break bone when hit, depending on just how heavy the bone actually is. But if/when they hit a heavy bone in, say, the shoulder, they are much more likely to penetrate all the way through to the vitals, and a 3/8" hole through the heart (or better, the large cluster of arteries at the top of the heart) WILL be fatal.

A softpoint may not penetrate sufficiently in this particular scenario.

"Solids" are meant to penetrate deeply, more deeply than a softpoint. They're the projectile of choice for elephant and rhino, and "sometimes" for Cape buffalo . . . but buff are right on the margin for making the transition from solid to softpoint. Some professional hunters believe in softpoints, expecially in a herd situation, other PHs are strictly "solid" men.

IMHO, from most angles, a 300 grain Bearclaw from your .375 ought to be fine for buffalo. One option sometimes bandied about is to load a softpoint "up the spout" in the rifle, with the magazine filled with solids, on the theory that the first shot is likely to be at an undisturbed animal and may be placed with more precision, but subsequent shots may be at a charging or retreating - and wounded! - animal where you may need the extra penetration to take out a hip or brain him.

 

[Metapotent]

I see, but isn't there a certain point where a solid isn't necessary, when a premium controlled expansion bullet would penetrate adequately?

I don't think that a 300 grain, trophy bonded bearclaw will fail to penetrate adequately. But then again i've never used such a heavy load, on such a large animal such as a Cape Bufallo.

 

[Terrierman]

When hunting Cape Buffalo, dollars to donuts the PH will have his rifle loaded with solids. That should tell you something.

 

[FatalMove]

Don't put all your eggs in one basket

First i would like to say i have enjoyed all that was said in previous posts. Thoroughly entertaining. But i just have one tidbit of advice. As the old saying goes "Dont Put All Your Eggs In One Basket. And what i mean is, when you pack your ammo for the plane, Put your ammo in two different containers. Split up what your gonna take in the 2 containers that way if one gets lost you got a back up batch. Cause what good is a rifle with no ammo ----- Turns into a club!

Anyway Hope you bag your Trophys and Win the Girl !


Just my $.02

FataL][V][ove

 

[Metapotent]

Update

I went out shooting with my friend today up in the hills about 30 miles north of here. I brought both my Safari rifles, 40 rounds for each, 30 8" aluminum foil pie-plates, and 30 wooden stakes.

We went to the clearing that we usually go to that has about a 400 yd long clear-cut. We stapled the pie plates to the wooden stakes and placed them at ranges of 50, 80, 100, 150, 200, 250, 300, and 400 yds.

My friend was just using his AK standing up but I tried all different shooting positions, off tree limbs and stumps, and I tried out my self-made 3-prong shooting sticks.

I consistently hit the targets out to 150 yds off-hand with both rifles, hit the 200 yd plates about 70% of the time. Then kneeling I hit them almost everytime.

Then out to 200-300 yds I went prone and only missed 2 out of 20 shots with the .375 with a 2 1/2 mil holdover using my mil-dot scope at 300yds (one mil-dot is 3.44 MOA). I am proud to say that at 300 yds I didn't miss one shot with my .30-06 (except a few off-hand shots).

At 400 yds I had some difficulty with windage and elevation, but I cranked my scope on my .375 to adjust for elevation and when the wind died down I got 4 out of 10 hits while lying prone (a little disappointed). With the .30-06 I cranked 24 clicks (6 MOA) elevation upwards and was able to get 7 hits out of 10 shots while prone using my backpack as a rest but I missed every shot I took at that range when i used the shotsticks (point of aim was all over the place).

I'm pretty proud of myself. I have a little room for improvement but I did well for being used to skeet shooting and .223 plinking.

 

[Michael Zeleny]

In fact, I believe hunting for sport may in fact be outright forbidden by Orthodox Jewish law;

It certainly is.

 

[Metapotent]

Michael Zeleny, you're steretyping the religion in whole by the interpretation of one Rabbi.

At the link you provided the Rabbi said :

Sports hunting violates the mitzvot against cruel treatment of animals (tzaar baali chayim). If hunting is the only alternative to dying oneself, then it is permitted.

I think gunshot wound to the heart/head or an arrow to the heart/head is far more human and less cruel than other conventional means of killing animals for food.

There are also scholars of many religious who would make similar claims about their religion, that hunting is inhumane and cruel, and therefore forbidden. In fact many Christian churches believe that killing an animal for any purpose other than self-defense or for necessity of sustaining their own lives is forbidden. Yet the majority of hunters in the US are Christian, and I know some Jewish hunters in the US other than in my girlfriends family.

People interpret that area of their religion differently, I myself see nothing wrong with hunting even though some people in my family dont agree with me based on their beliefs.

 

[Michael Zeleny]

People interpret that area of their religion differently, I myself see nothing wrong with hunting even though some people in my family dont agree with me based on their beliefs.

That is not how Orthodox Judaism works, junior. Still, thanks for entertaining us with a sneak preview of Season 2 Big Love plotlines.

I'm pretty proud of myself.

As well you should be. Now go play to a more gullible crowd.

 

[trstafford]

One thing you are learning by shooting at different ranges is your ability. When you are in the field remember your limitations and pass on any shot that is beyond your limit.

As a Christian Thanks for your support of Israel. God said that he would bless those that bless Israel.

 

[trstafford]

Future Reference

Just a tip for future reference. When testing different ammo for a particular rifle don't re-zero for each brand/batch. The group might be lower or higher but if the ammo shoots sub MOA that group will be sub MOA. After you find the batch that gives the best group then adjust your scope for that particular ammo. It will save you a lot of time and frustration adjusting the scope.

Just a tip

 

[Terrierman]

Let's hear about how the big Safari went down, with pictures too!

 

[Michael Zeleny]

Let's hear about how the big Safari went down, with pictures too!

The prospective Orthodox Jewish father-in-law has scheduled his big kill for Yom Kippur.

 

[Terrierman]

Well then I guess we'll have to wait a few days for the pictorials, I want to see a dead water buffalo.

 

[Michael Zeleny]

Well then I guess we'll have to wait a few days for the pictorials, I want to see a dead water buffalo.

Surely any Orthodox Jew worth his tzitzit will know that water buffalo live in Asia, not in Africa.

 

[LittleLebowski]

Meta, I'm going through much the same thing with a catholic father-in-law (already proposed) and he won't go hunting with me or even shooting. Don't try to put on a front, do try to outshoot him, and just be yourself. Don't be afraid to speak your mind either. All you need to know is that she's standing by your side.

 

[LeonCarr]

Mr. Metapotent, do you have an update for us?

Just my .02,
LeonCarr