Lehigh defense Xtreme penetrator ammo......gimmick or breakthrough?

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Bigmike79

Bigmike79

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Has anybody tried the Lehigh defense Xtreme penetrator or Xtreme defense ammo? Underwood is loading these funny looking solid copper bullets as well.

I've seen some neat videos online of gel test with this stuff on reputable YouTube channels like ammo Quest. This stuff is an incredible performer in ballistic gel, but how much of this technology is simply an exploitation of ballistic gel and not a real world Improvement in regards to bullet performance in actual flesh, tissue, bone....Etc?

While it appears that this stuff makes a mess out of gel blocks even with diminutive rounds such as 32 ACP or 380 acp, I simply have a hard time believing it would do the same to actual Flesh at those velocities. I would really like to see some testing of this stuff on actual animal flesh. Somehow I got a feeling that these blocks that are almost split in half by their 357 Magnum rounds would turn into simply a decent wound Channel in actual Flesh, and the decent wound channels created by 380 or 32 would be no different than the pin-hole type wounds that are created by your typical flat tip rounds.

I could be wrong, but I will not be swapping out my gold dots anytime soon until further real world testing is done.

Thoughts.....
 
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I have wondered much the same thing about ballistic gelatin as well. While it may have the same density as flesh I don't think that it has the same tensile properties. In other words, flesh can be rather sinewy. The gel ballistic tests make it look like a pistol is capable of rifle-like damage.

I wonder if there has been much research into the gel's real-world properties. I assume that there must be a bunch but I have never seen anything.
 
Flechette said:
I have wondered much the same thing about ballistic gelatin as well. While it may have the same density as flesh I don't think that it has the same tensile properties. In other words, flesh can be rather sinewy. The gel ballistic tests make it look like a pistol is capable of rifle-like damage.

I wonder if there has been much research into the gel's real-world properties. I assume that there must be a bunch but I have never seen anything.
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From what I understand ballistic gelatin is merely an equal testing medium for testing ballistic performance. With that being said, if it doesn't mimic flesh properly you're really only able to tell how one round outperforms another in ballistic gelatin not actual flesh and bone.

An example of this would be how a fmj 5.56 nato round creates more damage than a cast 45-70 round in ballistic gelatin. Does anyone really think an AR-15 will do a number on a large animal the way a lever 45-70 will?
 
I've looked at LeHigh bullets and had the same exact thoughts. I saw that video awhile back and I decided that I was going to buy some clothes from a thrift store, some duct tape, some plastic bags, a couple racks of ribs and some steaks and fashion a 'meat torso' of an approximately 160# male attacker and then shoot a couple of rounds in it. Then take a couple pictures of it or maybe even do a video.

Then after that take all the meat back and cook it and have a nice BBQ and talk about the results and then I forgot all about doing it.
 
BigMike79 wrote:
...how much of this technology is simply an exploitation of ballistic gel and not a real world Improvement in regards to bullet performance in actual flesh, tissue, bone....Etc?
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You are very astute. That is absolutely the right question to ask. And until Lehigh can do some human testing or collect enough data on the actual use of their product in self-defense it is a question nobody is going to be able to answer with finality.

There is currently an active post on TheFiringLine.com in which someone knowledgeable about the product explains the mechanism of action the bullets use and how they believe it translates from gel to flesh.

Personally, I want to train and practice with the gun and ammunition that I am actually going to use if I have to shoot at someone and since I can't afford to burn a box of these things a week to get and stay proficient, I have no interest in them.
 
BigMike79 wrote:
From what I understand ballistic gelatin is merely an equal testing medium for testing ballistic performance. With that being said, if it doesn't mimic flesh properly...
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Ballistic gel is used for bullet testing because it is a uniform media so the media doesn't influence the performance of the bullet. Ballistic Gel DOES adequately mimic flesh. The problem is that human beings aren't amorphous blobs of fat, muscle and water inside a bag of skin. Humans also have bone, cartilage, organs of different consistency, even open spaces and it is that stuff the gel doesn't do a good job of mimicking.
 
hdwhit said:
Ballistic gel is used for bullet testing because it is a uniform media so the media doesn't influence the performance of the bullet. Ballistic Gel DOES adequately mimic flesh. The problem is that human beings aren't amorphous blobs of fat, muscle and water inside a bag of skin. Humans also have bone, cartilage, organs of different consistency, even open spaces and it is that stuff the gel doesn't do a good job of mimicking.
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Does it? Look at the size of the permanent wound channels from handgun rounds in some of these ballistic gel testing videos. They're huge, yet it's been proven over and over that a handgun round will only put a hole in flesh that is the same diameter of the bullet or expanded bullet. Hell, a 30-06 won't either. It will destroy tissue from hydro-static shock, but it won't create a bigger wound cavity than it cuts other than an exit wound. You take a high powered deer rifle to a gel block and it does this.........



Like others on this forum, I've shot enough animals to know that muscle doesn't react like this when you shoot it with a high powered rifle unless we're talking about anti-aircraft size stuff like a 50BMG maybe.
 
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JohnBiltz said:
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I'm surprised that I didn't see this. Paul has one of the best channels on YouTube.

He basically confirmed what I suspected. The stuff does awesome on gel or more water based substances like a piece of fruit, but it does nothing more than FMJ in actual flesh.

Underwood makes some great ammo though. I use their +p 124 grain gold dots in my 9mm, and my wife uses their +p 100 grain hard cast flat nose for woods carry in her Glock 42. (no, we don't live in brown bear country)
 
hdwhit said:
Texas style, St. Louis style or Carolina style?
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Definitely Texas. :)

-----------

I also thought about using a hog as a ballistic pincushion.

However it's hit or miss hunting them for me sometimes. Might see 40 in a night or see nothing at all for the next 6 times I go.
 
Bigmike79 said:
Like others on this forum, I've shot enough animals to know that muscle doesn't react like this when you shoot it with a high powered rifle unless we're talking about anti-aircraft size stuff like a 50BMG maybe.
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Yes, it does. The temporary wound was there but it closes back up, leaving the permanent wound channel. Evidence of the temporary wound channel is there; I believe it was called 'bloodshot meat' at one time.

Another example of temporary wound channel is when the size of the temporary wound channel exceeds the size of the animal, the animal explodes.
 
cp1969 said:
Yes, it does. The temporary wound was there but it closes back up, leaving the permanent wound channel. Evidence of the temporary wound channel is there; I believe it was called 'bloodshot meat' at one time.

Another example of temporary wound channel is when the size of the temporary wound channel exceeds the size of the animal, the animal explodes.
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No it doesn't. A 30-06 to the thigh of a large animal like a pig does not blow it apart. It puts a hole trough it and destroys a bunch of tissue, but it doesn't split it into pieces like a gel block that gets hit with a high powered rifle. That block was literally blown and split to pieces. That's not a temporary wound cavity. That is complete and utter annihilation.

Also, we weren't talking about temporary wound channels. We' were talking about permanent wound channels, and if you're going to bust out the mythical temporary wound channel, I dare you to use common sense. Flesh doesn't stretch like gel. You can't stretch animal flesh almost an entire foot without it tearing it.

Handgun rounds are one thing, but flesh does not react anything at all like Ballistic gel when struck by a high powered rifle. This is pretty obvious.
 
Yes, it does. Your pig example doesn't illustrate anything. Shoot a small bird with a .22-250 and see if you can find the 'permanent' wound channel. How else do you explain any wound channel larger than the diameter of the expanded bullet itself?

Nobody said the size of the temporary wound channel in flesh is the same size as it is in gel.
 
I looked at this ammunition; however, it is designed to fail at the very reason that I standardized on .380. I realize that some online Gurus' consider over-penetration to be a myth. However, I remain very concerned about just that, "over-penetration."

I live in a condo (by choice, I found that I really didn't enjoy yard work). It is reasonable to me to be concerned about blasting through dozens of walls. As such, I have gone in, what is nearly an extreme, opposite direction. The first thing that surprised me is that the 5.56 is an excellent round for rapidly dumping all of its energy into the first thing it hits: furniture, dry-wall, and the like.

The next thing I paid attention to was how much of an over-penetrater the 9mm is. I have gone to frangible ARX rounds for self defense carry. The manufacturer states that they present less risk of penetration walls. Whether or not it is true, the limited tests that I have done support the claim. Further, if it were ever to go to court, it shows an effort to safeguard (yes, I also have concealed carry insurance).

I am waiting to see tests done on the 22tcm. It seems that it would be even better than the 5.56 at dumping energy into dry-wall. Unfortunantly, I don't have one, and know no one who has one, for testing.

Even if they perform as advertised, I feel that the super penetrators are un-necessary for personal defense.
 
cp1969 said:
Yes, it does. Your pig example doesn't illustrate anything. Shoot a small bird with a .22-250 and see if you can find the 'permanent' wound channel. How else do you explain any wound channel larger than the diameter of the expanded bullet itself?

Nobody said the size of the temporary wound channel in flesh is the same size as it is in gel.
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Actually, somebody sorta did. This whole debate was started by a response that claimed ballistic gel basically acts like flesh. Welcome to the conversation!

Also, my pig example illustrates everything. Shoot the thigh of a large pig with a high powered rifle and it will put a small hole through it while destroying a bunch of tissue around said small hole. Shoot a block of ballistics gel with the same rifle , and more often than not it will split the block into pieces. If you think a pig thigh is too large for a comparison then replace the thigh with a beef hear. I 30-06 will not completely shred a whole cow heart.

From what I've read, ballistics gel was created as a test medium for handgun cartridges and was never intended to test high power rifles. That is why it reacts nothing like actual flesh when something hits it at extreme velocities.
 
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Isn’t the whole point of ordinance gelatin that it’s a consistent medium that mimics the density and water content of muscle tissue and allows for repeatable results? An individual or organization then decides that X performance in gelatin means the round is adequate for X purpose.

It was never intended to be an analogue for a whole living organism, which probably isn’t something that can be cheaply created.

Sure, testing could involve shooting, say goats or pigs and then conducting autopsies, but that would be incredibly expensive. Also, the variations inherent to living organisms means such tests would not be scientific (what if pig a has a denser musculature than pig b?)
 
More consistent rifle/gel results would likely happen if the block were encased in a tough elastic container....much like our skin. The explosive temporary cavity would be greatly contained though adding such a 'skin' would increase the cost and complexity of testing.

'Over-penetration' is something that is going to happen if the projectile is capable of adequate penetration regardless of target orientation. For example: in a self-defense situation where the heavily muscled bad guy presents a shot that must travel through his bicep/upper arm then traverse the chest cavity laterally to get to the boiler room. If your bullet can make this shot....then compare one straight on a skinny guy that splits ribs through the lung...it's going to go out the back and there's not much we can do about it. So if you choose a bullet that will not over-penetrate on that frontal shot...it's going to fail on the other more demanding one. You pays your money and makes your choices.:)

Oh...one last comment: I believe that many if not most cases of 'over-penetration' are actually clean misses....being that about 80% of rounds fired in stressful situations fail to strike their target and sail unimpeded out into the populace. I'm sure there are SOME cases where a perp was ventilated by a bullet that retained enough to hurt someone downrange, but the people who cry about over-penetration the loudest are trying to keep that alive to defend themselves in the possibility that they shoot an innocent. "It wasn't me missing...it was OVER-PENETRATION so the bullet is to blame".
 
RecoilRob said:
Oh...one last comment: I believe that many if not most cases of 'over-penetration' are actually clean misses....being that about 80% of rounds fired in stressful situations fail to strike their target and sail unimpeded out into the populace. I'm sure there are SOME cases where a perp was ventilated by a bullet that retained enough to hurt someone downrange, but the people who cry about over-penetration the loudest are trying to keep that alive to defend themselves in the possibility that they shoot an innocent. "It wasn't me missing...it was OVER-PENETRATION so the bullet is to blame".
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I don't doubt that for a moment. However, with that in mind we need to consider how many houses our bullet is going to punch through. That is why I made the point of loosing energy on hitting dry wall (and I use dry wall in my example because it is the clear bottom threshold of things that are solid enough to be called a "material."). We are responsible for all of the bullets we fire, not just ones that hit the target.

No, there is no bullet that will provide adequate stopping power and still refuse to penetrate a single piece of dry wall, it isn't going to happen. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be a goal. It is a matter of seeking balance.

To the condescending types who say, "well, just practice more." That is part of the solution, a very important part; however, it is not the entire equation. I am pretty sure that we can all agree that Black Tip 7.62x51 would be grossly inappropriate as Self Defense ammunition in a condo. By saying that we have established one side of the continuum. On the other end, most of us would consider .22 CB caps to be far less than ideal. With those boundaries, what is left is for the individual to decide, were on the continuum, they are comfortable. Yes, we are responsible for what the bullet does, even when we miss.


[Two quick asides, one was related to my post.

I had originally written Green Tip, it is just what came to mind. Then when I was slapping the citations on (which is a clear example of backwards citations) I suddenly remembered that Black is AP, not green. I really don't know why I made that mistake; but I corrected it.

Other note, My condo complex has an unusual percentage of City Police and County Deputies living in it, it is just due to a convenient location. The likelihood of home invasions is even lower than its already low likelihood. That being said, as I saw with a particular neighbor, who has sense moved, any loud commotion will likely result in a police response in less than a minute (for some macabre reason I looked at my watch and timed it).]
 
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Paul Harrell's video shows that this ammo is a winner in 380 where hollow point performance is inconsistent. I got some boxes of fort scott munitions 380 on sale for or 10usd a box and it feeds more reliably in my keltec p3at better than some fmj ammo does. I know its not this lehigh defense stuff but i'm crossing my fingers that it's similar enough in being full copper.
 
They seem very expensive and gimmick-like. I prefer to rely on more traditional, street-proven designs from established manufacturers.
 
Bigmike79 said:
I'm surprised that I didn't see this. Paul has one of the best channels on YouTube.

He basically confirmed what I suspected. The stuff does awesome on gel or more water based substances like a piece of fruit, but it does nothing more than FMJ in actual flesh.

Underwood makes some great ammo though. I use their +p 124 grain gold dots in my 9mm, and my wife uses their +p 100 grain hard cast flat nose for woods carry in her Glock 42. (no, we don't live in brown bear country)
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Its only been out for a week or so. I don't see any thing there to move me off JHP all though it did not do that badly. Good stuff to carry in NJ though.
 
I’ve been looking for real life results from Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator and Xtreme Defense bullets too.

But, unlike most people who are wondering about “magic” shapes because all they have to look at are videos of gel and watermelons being blown into next week, I have used funny looking bullets with double-hyphen names on live animals, and have become a firm believer.

The picture below is the entrance wound on a Cape buffalo shoulder, from a .458 solid. Yes, solid... FMJ-esque if you want, the kind of thing that usually leaves a caliber-size puncture in the skin and muscle tissues. That was a Woodleigh Hydro (Hydrostatically Stabilised bullet if you want the whole mouthful... :) ). Look at that crater...

The shot was angled at approximately 30-40 degrees to the skin, from the lower right of the picture, at a distance of 10-20 m. Muzzle velocity, 2150 fps (20” barrel).

The round in the picture is a .458 Lott loaded with a CEB bullet, 3.6” long for size comparison. The wound channel shown is permanent, I just removed the blood clot that filled it. Tissues around the wound channel are severely bruised, sure indication that a lot of things happened very fast in there.

4F54216C-6C1F-4F58-A850-0EFC51934302.jpeg

So yes, bullets with particular nose shapes do indeed cause soft tissue damage that is simply incredible when compared with round-nosed FMJ. Hence my real interest in Lehigh products.

I happen to have received some .380 ACP XP, I’ll give them a try and report back. Not expecting a .458 Lott performance, of course, but I think that the results will be markedly different than those of FMJs.


Link to Woodleigh’s site (I lost pictures of the recovered bullet in the Photo-screw-bucket debacle, sorry...): http://www.woodleighbullets.com.au/products/hydrostatically-stabilised
 
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