LEOs at the range

[primlantah]

My girlfriend and I were at the range this weekend. There were 2 couples shooting at the 2 lanes next to us. Both men were showing their wives how to shoot. Both of their spouses clearly had never held a firearm before. They were receiving first timer type advice on how to grip and aim. Both first timers were shooting better than their macho LEO husbands. My girlfriend had 5 targets set up that as oriented would all fit inside both LEOs groupings. She was also firing a larger caliber than both of the LEOs. Im not joking... these guys were shooting about 20 inch groups... trained officers. After a while they were talking about their duty weapons being good because of the high capacity magazines... i was thinking their weapons and their aim would equal about 16 misses.

After we got home i asked my girlfriend, "If someone broke in and was raping and murdering you would you call the police and trust they will neutralize the situation?" she responded,"Heck no! I would respond faster and i wouldnt miss!"

so much for LEOs and military being the only people who should carry. my .02

 

[30 cal slob]

all the LEO's i ever shot with at the range were pretty darned good shots. which makes me feel better.

 

[hoji]

90+% of LEOs I see at the range cannot shoot for the life of them. The other 10% take the responsibility of carrying a gun seriously.

 

[WayneConrad]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that small groups don't count in combat. Being able to put the shots in the A zone is the important thing. If they can't do that, especially when not under stress, then I agree, need training.

On the other hand...

LEOs have training in ways to try to keep it from getting to the point where that blaster has to be used.

How many of 'em will ever have to fire shots in anger? How many of us will? Them more likely than us, but it's still not way up there in the list of things that happen all the time. That blaster is probably the least important tool on their belt, most of the time.

Does that make sense, or is this limb too small to support my statements?

 

[primlantah]

Wayne,

I agree 100% that the gun isnt the most important piece of equipment a LEO has. I also agree his job isnt centered on blasting away. But his job does require, if necessary, to use the blaster. I would expect a person with a tool necessary for some functions of a job would have mastery of the tool.

A fighter pilot or astronaut may not have to eject from their craft often... and most probably never will. But its expected they know how to.

 

[P-32]

I agree there are few LEO's who take the gun stuff beyond mandatory training. For me, shooting a qual for work is different than shooting at a gun range for fun.

People who watch me practice with my service rifles would say I'm a poor shot until match day when I shoot in the Master Class and even get a win once in awhile.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi Wayne,

If, as you say, the 'blaster' is the least important tool on their belt... Why are they issued 9mm automatics with large magazine capacities. Logic says a large slower moving projectile would be more appros for safety and the larger magazine would be irrelevant.

Also, if the tool is unimportant, why are LEO's required to have one in the field? Even restaurants the owner has declared a 'gun free zone' cannot ask an LEO to remove his weapon.

As for small groups not counting in combat... Alvin York, Audie Murphy, the 101st Airborne, anyone wearing a Ranger tab and the entire US Marine Corps would have a technical term for that assumption.

Selena

 

[CountGlockula]

This post is going down the drain...

 

[AKCOP]

primlantah,
Having been an LEO for 23 years and an enthusiastic shooter I never gave a good rats butt about the group I got as long as I was putting them in the kill zone.
I recall many pins shoots, head to head with none LEOs and the pressure made them melt, while many LEO's who were not that great of a shot cleaned their clocks. So what does this all prove, not really a damn thing, much like your story. The proof is when your in a spot with your back against the wall and someone is shooting at you, do you give a crap if your group is a bit high and to the right and not MOA or can you stop the threat and make it home after your shift.

 

[jerkface11]

It's their responsibility to know how to use ALL of the equipment they're required to carry.

 

[Bobarino]

i've only had one close encounter experience with LEO's at the range. the Washington State Patrol had just switched to USP's and they just handed out the new guns without training and said here ya go..... so there were two WSP officers in the adjacent two lanes trying to get familiar with their new guns. they weren't having much luck. their groups were more like patterns and in the process of trying to unload and field strip their guns, i must have gotten swept 5 times with a finger on the trigger. i couldn't take it any more and offered to teach them about their new guns. (i've been shooting a USP for about 8 years and so i'm pretty familiar) they accepted though it clearly took a little pride swallowing. me telling them about them sweeping everyone and their brother helped persuade them. i had to adjust the sights on both their guns and after about 20 mins of "lessons" they could both handle their guns safely, field strip and reassemble. the shooting didn't improve much though.

both of them were flabbergasted when i showed them mine. they were convinced that these were special "police only" guns and civilians couldn't own them. that part was funny.

i see the County Sheriff officers shooting there sometimes too. they seem to be pretty good actually.

Bobby

 

[AKCOP]

Must also throw in one more point,. The gun is but one part of being an LEO.
I worked with a guy early in my career that shot like no one else I ever saw.
He had forearms like tree trunks and could hold that mdl 19 like a vise. His groups were truly amazing, I mean amazing. Problem was that was all he was good at. He could not write a report, had no initiative, no people skills, had no idea what the 4th amendment was all about, couldn't explain probable cause if his life depended upon it and when he wrote a citation chances were good the judge would throw it out becaue he couldn't read it.
So while shooting is important for an LEO it is not the sole criteria upon which one should be judged. OK, I'm done, I think...

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Cops are people too.
Some of them suck at shooting. Where did you get the idea that they are all skilled at the handling and shooting of firearms?
I think that this phantom ideal of the police officer as some sort of gunslinger Matt Dillon archetype is pretty old fashioned.

 

[NASCAR_MAN]

I would not criticize the cops because you percieve they have a slow response time or poor shooting skills - they will nevertheless aggresively move to end threat. And that's what's most important. And that's what the bad guys most fear: a head-on confrontation with someone who won't back down.

Now...should they be the only people with guns? Hell no!

Everyone needs guns.

NASCAR

 

[Pat-inCO]

It's obvious that you have not done much as an instructor. Especially when it is your wife! If you want them to learn, they must have some fun. If that fun is "out shooting" you, that's easy.

Have I ever seen a PD officer that had problems qualifying? Sure have, and he is now "retired".

 

[WayneConrad]

If, as you say, the 'blaster' is the least important tool on their belt... Why are they issued 9mm automatics with large magazine capacities. Logic says a large slower moving projectile would be more appros for safety and the larger magazine would be irrelevant.

Also, if the tool is unimportant, why are LEO's required to have one in the field? Even restaurants the owner has declared a 'gun free zone' cannot ask an LEO to remove his weapon.

As for small groups not counting in combat... Alvin York, Audie Murphy, the 101st Airborne, anyone wearing a Ranger tab and the entire US Marine Corps would have a technical term for that assumption.

Selena, Good questions

The policeman's sidearm is not unimportant, just the least important tool on his belt, most of the time. And if used, group size is not important, so long as the shots land somewhere on target, preferably in the A zone: Vital stuff is there. B and C zones works, too: They catch bullets and prevents damage to things and people behind the target.

Re: "combat," probably the wrong choice of word on my part, but perhaps you're being pedantic and deliberately pouncing my poor word choice. Of course, I meant the kinds of combat encounted by our policemen. Not by our uniformed military.

I'm no expert in police matters. But it's obvious to me that it doesn't make sense to judge a man (or his profession) based solely on group size, when there's so much more to police work.

 

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

If, as you say, the 'blaster' is the least important tool on their belt... Why are they issued 9mm automatics with large magazine capacities. Logic says a large slower moving projectile would be more appros for safety and the larger magazine would be irrelevant.

Also, if the tool is unimportant, why are LEO's required to have one in the field? Even restaurants the owner has declared a 'gun free zone' cannot ask an LEO to remove his weapon.

Selena

Simply put, did you marry your husband because of his gun or because of his brain?

It's the same thing with hiring (hopefully) would-be peace officers: they are hired because they have a good head on their shoulders, the MOST important tool and asset that they can have.

 

[primlantah]

i think some of you misunderstand me. Im not bashing cops. Im providing constructive criticism. If a cop responds to a violent situation in my neighbors apartment and it turns violent, i dont want a 40 cal blasting me through the wall while taking a shower or sleeping. If you carry a gun you should be proficient. Cops need to be literate(witting good reports is good i guess) but they need to be responsible. I understand consistency is more important than grouping but these guys who were not under pressure were shooting larger groups then my body.

AKCOP i hope your back isnt up against the wall adjacent to my home when SHTF for you.

 

[fearless leader]

Primlantah, when I went through the academy in '92, they didn't teach marksmanship as target shooters know it. We had a technique to pick up so that all of us had the same training, and the department had reason to believe they could predict how we would respond to a deadly threat.

We frequently ran around a field, did jumping jacks, push-ups and squat thrusts to simulate stress, before shooting a bowling pin, silouette or other target the instructors put up for us.

While none of us learned "bullseye" shooting on the range, most of us can dismantle our weapons in the dark, shoot a qualifying score in low light, and shoot accurately enough to end a life theatening problem in a short space of time.

While not all LEOs are "gun guys" per se, they have to be able to operate them under some demanding standards and short time frames, to get the job.

After the fight is over, no one will ask if the correct stance, breathing, and grouping were deployed.

The newspaper will carry a story of who won and who lost.

In the words of Bill Jordan, "there is no second place winner."

 

[F4GIB]

they will nevertheless aggresively move to end the threat.

This is not an exclusive cop skill. If you can't step into a concrete vault, it's the only option for any of us.

Remember learning in 1969, "turn into the ambush and fight through it, killing every smob**ch you meet." It's a lesson you never forget.

 

[primlantah]

fearlessleader, you put it well.

i dont think all cops are bad shots as i think some of you think im saying. i think these particular cops are below average in skill....and im stating that neither myself or my girlfriend feel safer knowing these cops might be patrolling our neighborhood.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

If I was a LEO I'd practice like my life depended on it until I got very proficient (because it does). It may be the least used tool on the belt but the most important when you really need it. Some cops are excellent shots and some are not, like an armed citizen who buys a revolver and throws it along with a box of ammo in a drawer "in case they need it some day", versus one who practices regularly.
Oh the other hand I have heard for the most part that air marshalls are usually excellent shots.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Dr. Peter Venkman

Simply put, did you marry your husband because of his gun or because of his brain?

My husband is soon to be on his way to his second stay in the Mideast. He is a professional in arms and in leadership. I might add if one of his men had fired some of the groupings or handled weapons as I have seen some county deputies and prison guards at ranges in Indiana their butts would be back in training so fast (and I quote) 'their skivvies would need six days to catch up with them.'

That said, I married him because of his self respect, politeness and common sense. In my short lifetime I have met exactly three LEO's with the last quality. Oddly enough, those three are the only LEO's I would be inclined to give the benefit of the doubt in a shooting, not try to make myself a smaller target when they have a weapon in hand or take a check from.

Any more questions?

Selena

 

[AKCOP]

primlantah,
I think you started this thread by making some bad assumptions. These LEO's were shooting with their wives, showing them how to shoot. You are using this one contact to make a judgement about their shooting ability. I wonder where your insight about LEO's would be if you had another opportunity to see these gents shoot and they met or exceeded your expectations, you would then appear somewhat judgemental and foolish eh!

 

[primlantah]

how am i foolish for criticizing poor marksmanship of my local PD?

I dont care if they are showing a monkey how to shoot. you cant teach by showing someone how to do it wrong. I taught my girlfriend how to shoot from her first trigger pull... i never toned it down for her and she is now by far a better marksman than i am. I expect her to not tone it down for me in return.

when your practicing a deadly action you should do it right every time.