LEOs at the range

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Wayne,

Point taken, perhaps I did 'pounce' on the usage of the word combat. However, when shots are exchanged a person's training takes over or they start to 'spray and pray.' Far too many LEO's sound like members of the Latin Kings in attitude. I hate the idea of either having a deadly weapon.

I'm told I expect too much from a civil servant. When a class of persons alledgely trained in high speed driving have three instances of single car crashes (Indiana), alledgely highly trained in firearms handling attempt to shoot snakes out of trees and half a dozen other idiot mistakes I'm forced to wonder about the professionalism of the entire class.

Selena
 
Officers Wife

I'm told I expect too much from a civil servant. When a class of persons alledgely trained in high speed driving have three instances of single car crashes (Indiana), alledgely highly trained in firearms handling attempt to shoot snakes out of trees and half a dozen other idiot mistakes I'm forced to wonder about the professionalism of the entire class.
Selena



I think the big thing is you just don't like cops. Many don't. You will also find many folks who don't like those who serve in the military and many enlisted personnel who hate officers. I have no doubt there are also officers who have very low opinions of enlisted troops.I spent fourteen years in the Army on both Active and Reserve duty. I have an idea of what I'm talking about. Such is life.;)

A joke. What do cops and firefighters have in common? They both wanted to be firemen when they were kids. :D
 
Incidentally I can find many instances of soldiers, American soldiers, committing various crimes against foreign civilians (rape, looting,murder), accidentally calling in artillery on various targets that were not a threat at that time, and so on.

Actually can anyone recall what the numbers from Vietnam regarding just how many rounds were expended by troops before a single enemy casulty was inflicted? Or Korea or WW2 for that matter?

I'm a veteran and proud of my service and my country. But we all live in glass houses. Especially those of us who have jobs that involve us carrying firearms and the use of "legal" violence.
 
It's like baseball, just because you like it dosen't mean you will be a good player
 
steve, the non-leos are not allowed to go to the figh while police officers are expected to.

i dont dislike cops... i just expect them to shoot better than i witnessed.
 
Checkman,

I think the big thing is you just don't like cops. Many don't.

You assume I don't like LEO's. I dislike those that have no sense of craft, when those persons appear to concentrate in one profession I question the profession. If that means I just don't like cops, you have just condemned every member of the entire profession.

Selena
 
Im not bashing cops. Im providing constructive criticism.

To whom? If you were truly interested in the cops' shooting abilities, why didn't you offer your superior experience and expertise? What are your credentials. The first question I would ask, since you don't give enough details in your anecdote, how fast were the "macho LEO husbands" shooting. It's one thing to carefully align the sights, take aim and squeeze off a well aimed shot and another entirely to control recoil and make hits as quickly as you can pull the trigger. As an old instructor once told me "the first one to put rounds downrange wins, if they're hits."

Can you draw from the holster and put two shots on target within 3 seconds with one hand from 5 yards? Can you fire two rounds from 25 yards in 5 seconds from low ready and hit the 10 ring, much less the target? I've heard lots and lots of folks talk about what bad shots LEO's are, but I've never seen any of them (other than military members) who had their jobs on the line if they couldn't meet some highly demanding time and accuracy constraints with all their weapons. Ever tried to qualify with a shotgun when you had to tac load two slugs and hit a ten-ring scorable target from 50 yards from an unsupported standing position in 6 seconds?

I'd say converse with the LEO's and try to find out what they were trying to accomplish in their training session, but I guess they were too "macho" for that. :rolleyes:
 
Primlantah,
I would be interested to know what you do for a living, I might find that I am better at it than you, wouldn't that be something. Walk a mile in their shoes
then perhaps your opinion might hold a bit more.
 
im a network administrator. To make an analogy....

disaster recovery is something that every IT professional needs to prepare for. It is something that most of us never have to deal with if the job is done well. However, when i pull data from backup i dont just mind numbingly go through the motions... i think about how to improve my skill and efficiency at it... if i didnt i wouldnt have a job when a real disaster happens.

the gentlemen im refering to in the first post were not shooting from low ready or drawing as this isnt allowed at the range. they were not rapid firing because its not allowed. They were firing slow and steady. I mean i have seen a 10 year old girl shoot better than they were.
 
Shooting is not a skill needed for most Police work.Being able to make quick decisions,being able to survive disturbance calls and making good arrests are much more important.I made over 3 thousand arrests during my career and never got sued or disciplined.People skills are what enable most cops to survive and retire.I think too many people here watch too much TV?However I also believe a Cop should be able to hit the barn door at 25 yds.
 
Originally Posted by Officers'Wife
If, as you say, the 'blaster' is the least important tool on their belt... Why are they issued 9mm automatics with large magazine capacities. Logic says a large slower moving projectile would be more appros for safety and the larger magazine would be irrelevant.

Also, if the tool is unimportant, why are LEO's required to have one in the field? Even restaurants the owner has declared a 'gun free zone' cannot ask an LEO to remove his weapon.


I love questions like this because they illustrate just how little the public and even our very own family members understand the job that we have taken on.
It seems that the public, and even our family members in some instances, focus only upon the gun and not the individual Officer and his/her personal qualities and attributes assuming that the sidearm on the Officer's duty belt is the source of his authority. I say this, not to belittle anyone, but rather to explain that such "tunnel vision" is typical since we are such visible figures in the public eye. Consider that those who do not know a Police Officer personally have only second-hand information in addition to how Hollywood portrays the job and it is easy to see how they could begin to believe that our lives are like any one of the myriad "action movies" that seem so popular these days.

So, why do Officers carry a sidearm, of varying capacities and calibers and why is it required as an issued piece of equipment?


As a sworn LEO with over twenty years afield, the answer to this question is both simple and complex all at once.
Simply put, the greatest implement that I bear in the field is a "compound tool" composed of my intellect and common sense (they are very different things), my training and my experience set. The material equipment that I have with me daily (uniform and badge, gun, handcuffs, baton, mace, notepad/pen) is secondary to the 'software' (my intellect, common sense, my training and experience) that I carry around in my head because without that 'software' the other tools are inert and without value. The 'tools' (sidearm, handcuffs, etc.) are important and quite necessary, but they are only a means to an end. We have them because we might need them and we do not know when that time will be so they must be with us always.

Long before I arrive at the determination that I will need to employ my duty sidearm, I have to use that "compound tool" to 'de-escalate' the situation that I am dealing with first by verbal resolution and mediation and as the situation develops depending upon how willing the 'actors'
are to cooperate or resist, the range of possibilities can either increase or decrease in terms of what will happen next. Rest assured that the variables are infinite, unpredictable and beyond my control in most cases.
Sometimes, I can get the parties involved to come to an understanding and there is no need for further action.
Sometimes, the parties remain unwilling to resolve the issue and I must make an arrest which may, or may not, become a violent interaction.
Sometimes, one of the parties is not only intent on resisting resolution (to include an arrest), but also determined to harm someone including me, possibly grievously and then I must act in the gravest extreme which may mean that I have to take a human life in the course of my duties. Thankfully, such action is a very rare event as it is something that do not relish the thought of doing regardless of the circumstances involved.

As for the caliber of, and type of duty sidearm/ammunition that we have at our sides, it is most usually not our decision to make and usually made at the Departmental level based upon whatever criteria the administration deems most important and relevant for such a selection.

The point that I strive to make is that Police Officers are only human beings and that no matter our level of training we are not omnipotent, infallible beings who possess the ability to control every situation that may arise. When a situation exceeds what little control we do have over it (and it ain't much, trust me) then we can only act in such a manner as to mitigate the "runaway train" effect with the tools and training we have available.

I often hear folks challenge an Officer's authority during various incidents/arrests with questions and statements like "Who are you to make the decision?", "What gives you the right to arrest me?" or "There has got to be something better than letting someone do this job."

In answer to this, I can only offer you this:
There is no one else except for us (human beings) to do this job unless you want a machine (technology permitting, of course) to make the decisions. We (human beings) are all that we have and just as in other fields of employment, there are good ones, incompetent ones, honest ones, corrupt ones and this is the best we (humanity) can do. It is far from perfect due to our imperfection, but it is also all that we have and that is how it is.

GS
 
GS, your point is well made. but if it goes to guns the LEO better not miss and hit someone else... they may be human but in an instant the lesser ones could be murderers. The police officers that i observed at the range would put in the lesser ones category.
 
im a network administrator.

I rest my case. We have your word on what poor shots the LEO's were, yet we see no proof. How did you know they were LEO's? How does being a network administrator qualify you to judge anyone's marksmanship? Pardon me for being skeptical, but I've seen too many people perpetuate the "cops are lousy shots" myth without any creds to back up how well they would do in a pressure situation. Your restoring from backup analogy doesn't work unless it happens at midnight on the side of a lonely road with a couple of drunks trying to bash your head in. If you can do that, hats off.
 
Hi Gun Slinger,

First, thank you for not having the tude. I hope I can respond in kind.

As for the caliber of, and type of duty sidearm/ammunition that we have at our sides, it is most usually not our decision to make and usually made at the Departmental level based upon whatever criteria the administration deems most important and relevant for such a selection.

So, admin believes that your duty and capabilities are such that a high speed ball and high cap mag is necessary.

As for the rest- perhaps I don't know your day to day responsibilities. I don't know how to fly a helicopter either but I can tell at a glance how well trained an operator is when he lands the thing. I don't know how to make an automobile either, but if the windshield leaks or the door doesn't close I'm fully able to tell somebody messed up.

Tell you what... suppose you had a blood test come into the lab and I gave you a false positive for HIV. Would you not knowing what my job entails stop you from questioning my professionalism? If my brother were to be responsible for the batch of milk your child drank that turned out to have higher levels of hormones or antiboitics than the law allowed would you not knowing what his job entails make you overlook a 'human' mistake?

I respect your work, it take a special sort of person to perform the necessary evil of the executive branch. But, your brothers in blue in general have made me rather cautious in trusting any one person in particular.

The handgun is only one tool of your job, fine. AIDS tests are only one part of mine. I am expected to be able to perform ALL my duties, I expect you to do the same. Now, if you are like AKCOP and expect me to believe that a person that has no more sense of craft to keep a grouping on the range is going to magically improve under duress... I stopped believing in magic when I was nine so don't bother.

Selena
 
WayneConrad said:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that small groups don't count in combat.
Shooting small groups is not, in and of itself, a combat technique, that is true. What it is, is a measure of precision and consistency. If you cannot consistently place your shots where you want them to go on the range, you will certainly not be able to do so under the stress of combat.
 
and if they are shooting a 20+ inch group at 7 yards i dont want the possibility that they will get into a gun fight in my neighborhood....i dont care how slim the chance is.
 
Did they say they were cops? Did they show ID? Any bozo can say, "I'm a cop." Why, just the other day, someone told me he was a network administrator, but he couldn't restore from backup in a well lighted, air conditioned office. The very thought...:rolleyes:
 
Cops at the range

This thread is probably the weirdest thread I have seen so far.Here we have a bunch of people complaining that cops shooting skills are poor and should be more fine tuned,and yet every time a cop shoots someone in the line of duty,they are usually branded as being gun crazy.So what is really going on people?What do you expect from cops that are hired from the area in which they live and were raised for the most part?
The very first day on the job,an old timer told me that it was an impossible job to keep the public happy.You will be damned if you do and damned if you don't.He was right.
If you want cops that never make mistakes,know every law of the land ,never loses his temper ,can please both sides of every call he goes on,and can shoot a firearm like Sgt. York or Wild Bill Hickok,it will probably cost you more than a starting pay of around $25,000.00 a year.You guys need a reality check and have to get a life.Oh and turn the TV off.
Wow,I feel so much better now.lol
 
In Polk and Hillsboro Counties ranges have been closed because rounds have gone off the range property and onto others. The blame for the stray rounds has gone to the agencies practicing at those ranges.
I have no idea if the blame is placed truthfully or not, but we are out two places to shoot because the shooters, who ever they were, couldn't hit the target.:mad:
 
Selena,

Never said what my Departmental Admin. had determined. I simply stated that they made the decisions that they made based on the criteria they believed to be most important to them and our line Officers.

As for the second and third paragraphs of your post, anyone can tell when a task that they have not the qualifications for has not produced the desired results or when a component in product that they cannot build themselves fails. However, it is faulty logic to assume that it is the result intentional misconduct or negligent performance. Engaging in such 'non sequitir' is not only dangerous, but counterproductive, producing more problems than it resolves. Sure, I'd be mad as hell about getting a false positive HIV test, receiving a defective product or getting sick from a sub-standard food product, but such events are not always the result of malicious or negligent acts and to believe so is wrong since materials fail, sometimes inexplicably, and not all errors that people make are intentional and malicious in nature.

From the remainder of your post, I sense in it's tone more than just the mistrust of those in authority that you claim to harbor. It is evident that you have some level of anger (to what extent I cannot say, but I would guess that it is pretty intense if forced to guess) that remains unresolved regarding the issues discussed above. The presence of anger caused by what I think is most likely fostered by a sense of betrayal (it sucks when an authority figure fails tolive up to your expectations) is normal and to be expected, but left unresolved it can and will become a detriment to you. However you manage to get past the anger and mistrust, I wish you the best of luck in that pursuit because, quite frankly, life is far too short to waste it being angry and suspicious. I know. I wasted too much of my valuable time doing just that.

Hang in there,

GS
:)
 
FWIW, I've seen LEOs that need alot more trigger time, and I've seen some who can leave me in the dust without blinking.

Like any other group of folks, some are gun people and some aren't. Bear in mind, we live in a society where very few parents are teaching their children to shoot. Most police recruits these days come in with little or no firearms experience. Many have been raised in a culture that teaches us to hate and fear guns.

Awhile back, I raised the question of how frequently officers trained and qualified, and I was shocked by some of the replies. In some areas, they only have to shoot their duty weapons once a year. Any other time they spend is on their own time. That's a hard thing to ask of someone who pulls 60-70 hours' high-stress time a week.

Yes, being able to shoot well is an invaluable survival skill, especially for those whose job it is to confront and apprehend violent people. But it's hard to blame individual officers for a lack of training when the overall system doesn't seem to place much of a value on it.

There are still some serious gunslingers out there, but they're a dwindling minority. What I hate is the fact that the situation would be fixable with a few policy changes, but few departments seem to find it a priority.
 
primlantah,

Originally posted by primlantah:
GS, your point is well made. but if it goes to guns the LEO better not miss and hit someone else... they may be human but in an instant the lesser ones could be murderers. The police officers that i observed at the range would put in the lesser ones category.

Quite a conclusive "leap" for the charge of Murder in an Officer Involved Shooting where an errant round misses a lethal force aggressor.

You'd have a very difficult time proving the intentional conduct necessary for Murder as well as the requisite negligent conduct for Manslaughter if the Officer involved made the proper situational judgements/decisions in firing his service weapon in the defense of himself or another's life. The Departmental Review Board will rule it as a justifiable action in such a case and the Officer will enjoy "good faith" immunity from criminal prosecution and similar idemnity from civil prosecution in any form relating to that particular incident.

GS
 
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