LEOs at the range

[bsf]

Though I would like all LEO’s to be highly proficient with their duty firearms, all I absolutely demand is that they can operate them safely. The qualities I would like to see in LE are common sense; composure under pressure; and commitment to “service & protection”. I am not terribly worried whether the LEO’s in my area can hit a 2” bullseye at x meters during standing slow fire. If they take the initiative to advance their skills beyond that required for qualification, I commend them.

I myself have fallen into the trap of thinking of my skills, or lack thereof, in relation to the “average cop’s” skills. “Hey look at me punch holes in that lifeless target. I bet you I am better than a lot of cops”. Geez, that is just stupid. Am I that insecure? :banghead: Based on my limited understanding, I say LE is so much more than just pistolcraft.

 

[Gun Slinger]

bsf,

Based on my limited understanding, I say LE is so much more than just pistolcraft.

The last sentence of your post above indicates that you are "light-years" ahead of most of the general public in your understanding of what constitutes LE. Pistolcraft is just a small percentage of the entire job, yet also very important.

Give yourself a little more credit. Your understanding of LE ain't as "limited" as you say it is.

GS

 

[SalTx]

From what I've seen there's a few who are really good shots and they gravitate towards the "kicking in doors" group, a few more who shoot as good, but are more of a pragmatic, rkba types. The majority are poor shots, but do successfully complete their quals, which aren't that hard. I strongly disagree with the opinion that leo's are more likely to need to use their weapons. They arrive after someone has been shot, killed, raped, robbed, assaulted, taken hostage, auto wreck, etc.. They only respond, usually in force, with all manner of citizen onlookers willing to help them, directly or support wise, with body armor, proven sidearms, rifles, WEIGHT of law, some amount of professional instruction and training, with full knowledge and understanding what may come, as opposed to the citizen who initially needed to defend themselves. The victim needs the gun, the victim needed to use the gun. The victim needs to use his gun. I doubt the risks run by joe citizen are remotely approached by the common uniformed police officer.

 

[Steve in PA]

"I doubt the risks run by joe citizen are remotely approached by the common uniformed police officer."

Then you obviously don't know much about law enforcement.

 

[sacp81170a]

I doubt the risks run by joe citizen are remotely approached by the common uniformed police officer.

Granting all your other points about the advantages LEO's enjoy, the big difference is that "joe citizen" doesn't have an obligation to interpose him or herself between BG's and innocents (some of whom are not so innocent). That is, you have flight as an option, and a very prudent and viable one. For the LEO, well, that's what he or she gets paid for, to resolve those situations where any sane person would be GTHOOD. These situations tend to happen in places most folks wouldn't go if they had a choice. The officers don't have that choice.

 

[Moonclip]

I'll try to leave my personal opinions of LEOs out of this and this is a thread destined for threadlock. Cops are human, so are "civilians" and some of the better people I've met and some of the scum of the earth I've encountered happened to have been in LE.

Anyways I've seen LE shooting and knowledge bite the big one and I've seen proficiency also. If I was in LE, I might not think I need to be a "gun nut" but learning how to proficiently and safely handle my duty weapons would be a high priority.

A dept by me IIRC actually pays a bonus if you shoot well in their qualifications, is this a common practice?

 

[Harvster]

The original post seems a little lacking in information. Were the people in question trying to shoot tight groups? Maybe they were just burning up some old ammo. They will likely go their whole career without using their gun. They were teaching others about guns (safely I assume since nothing was mentioned about that). Even if they are not great shots, they were practicing. I don't understand the point other than cop bashing or saying nanny nanny boo boo I can shoot better than you. Maybe when looking down the barrel of a gun they would be rock steady were as you, I, anyone might be shaking like a leaf. I'm inclined to appreciate anyone who is practicing and teaching others.

 

[Ala Dan]

Some LEO types only shoot on range qualification days; otherwise,
their sidearm remains holstered for the most part~!

 

[cpttango30]

Never seen a problem with the police that I have shot next to. I am sure their are piss poor shots out there on the police force, just as their are people out on any range that love to shoot but are not that good of a shot.

The few times I was at the indoor range and a police officer came to shoot SHE was a good shooter and a good looker as well. I do not know there is something about a women with a 45acp in tight pants and shirt that gets the blood pumping.

 

[ScottsGT]

One thing to consider is that as mentioned, not all LEO's are "gun nuts" like we are. Their department budget cannot afford to train them (the entire department) to shoot like a "gun nut" does. Since they are not "gun nuts", they are not going to spend their money for something that the department should be buying. Now the LEO that taught my CWP class was a true Marksman. He had been a competitive shooter with the Columbia PD for over 20 years, and has many awards and certifications to prove it. But not all LEO's can afford the time or money it takes to get there.

 

[#shooter]

I will play devils advocate and say perhaps they were just "fooling around" not trying to get get groups. Then again i wasn't there.

 

[primlantah]

saltx, scottsgt, and harvester... good points.

 

[Phil DeGraves]

"But it's hard to blame individual officers for a lack of training when the overall system doesn't seem to place much of a value on it."

Bingo! Eric gets the prize!

 

[aka108]

I've shot with LEO's from both the local Sheriff's office and the Police Dept. They all take their shooting seriously. The ones that don't probably show up at the police range 1 time a year for the annual quals.

 

[AKCOP]

Bottom line is primlantah made a judgement about two people who he believed were police officers, he made this judgement on what appears to be an inadequate amount of evidence and then supports his judgement using his girlfriends ability to shoot as justification for his judgement. I'd say he has presented a pretty poor case with a lack of credible evidence. I would suspect, nationwide, that 98% or more of cases resulting in bad guys being sent to jail has nothing to do with an officers ability to shoot to the standards that primlantah believes are necessary. Primlantah I suspect you will never change your view on this regardless of what evidence is put before you.
But I will hold out hope that one day the light will go on and you will figure it out.

 

[Old Dog]

Im not bashing cops. Im providing constructive criticism.

Criticism is constructive only when provided to those who are in need of criticism. As you are relating this story to THR members, and presumably did not provide your "constructive criticism" to the (supposed) LEOs whose shooting skills, in your judgement, were not up to the level you require for your neighborhood cops, your remarks closely resemble cop-bashing to me.

Frankly, I suspect most THR members do take your original post for an invitation to chime in on the lack of shooting skills by the average LEO, an invitation hardly necessary nor desired as we've seen far, far too many of these types of threads lately.

and if they are shooting a 20+ inch group at 7 yards i dont want the possibility that they will get into a gun fight in my neighborhood....i dont care how slim the chance is.

Well, glad you're never at the range when I take my daughter or wife to shoot. The few mags I dump, I'm hardly trying for pretty groups; my main concern is trigger time and improving skills for my girls.

 

[BlindJustice]

Perhaps the LEOs were firing very rapidly to show off to their
wives but the wives being newbies were doing slow fire?

Selena said
As for small groups not counting in combat... Alvin York, Audie Murphy, the 101st Airborne, anyone wearing a Ranger tab and the entire US Marine Corps would have a technical term for that assumption.

Hey let's not forget Col.Anthony Herbert - most decorated soldier in the US
Army during the Korean War. See his book, "Soldier" in the book he
recalled being separated during a battle and ended up hooking up with some
Turkish platoon on top of a hill surrrounded by Chinese Army. Herbert didn't speak Turkish but he realized he liked the turks - they knew they would be
attacked in the morning. The Turks were happy as pie, because they
had complete freedom in fields of fire in every direction.

R-

 

[BattleChimp Potemkin]

My experience is that alot of teh folks coming out to my range that are young, claiming to be LEO, generally are not. We let LEOs shoot for free and the posers are always "leaving thier badges or IDs at home" that day.

 

[CountGlockula]

Us: We are typing away on a message board.
Them (LEOs): Put their lives on the line.

 

[primlantah]

thats funny battle chimp.

 

[ilbob]

I have seen some scary shooting by LEOs and I have seen some pretty good shooting. I have not seen anywhere near enough to make a credible judgment as to the overall shooting skills of LEOs. A few anecdotal tales is not real evidence to support a conclusion.

At least they went out and got some practice. as long as they are safe shooters, their level of skill does not bother me all that much.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Selena

Not intending to stir the pot and no disrespect to your husband because I am a retired AF Officer myself, but you stated "Far too many LEO's sound like members of the Latin Kings in attitude." Unfortuately we have a lot of that same attitude in the military and that no amount of retraining seems to help. The military's answer seems to always be to pass them off to some other unit!

primlantah,

What qualifies you to pass judgement on another shooter. Are you an instructor or a wannabe? Or just trying to impress your wife with your knowledge.

Do you have a LEO complex as some on this forum do?

Now in case you are interested before you answer (if you do), I am a NRA Pistol and Rifle Instructor, Certified Range Officer, and I have a son that is a LEO. So I am qualified to ask these question!

 

[Officers'Wife]

Blindjustice,

That wasn't meant to be a complete list, frankly this place doesn't have the bandwidth for the complete list.

Selena

 

[RWBlue01]

Most LEOs are not gun people. They don't shoot very often and when they do they suck. I have shot next to a couple guys who fit that category. their guns had holster wear and lint in them.

I have also shot next to a police officer that was sharp. We talked about building ARs. We discussed groups. We were both shooting Black Powder guns. And I probably learned something that day. He was/is a gun guy.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Grizzly,

You are correct about the military and attitudes, but I've also seen soldiers with bad attitudes find themselves discharged as well.

That said, imagine you are on the range and a soldier with a 12 ga under his am turns to talk to the man next to him. How long would said soldier remain on that range? I saw this happen at the Pulaski County (police) range. The range officer shrugged his shoulders and told Gramps it wasn't his business when he reported the fool.

I have no problems with authority provided those given it are professionals and willing to act as such. Careless weapon handling, county sheriffs and deputies that spend many late nights at taverns then drive home and many other 'parts of the job I canna possibly understand' does not strike me as professional.

Selena