LEOs at the range

[Reyn]

Ive been an LEO for 9 years. I have not scored less than 100 since graduating the academy. Ive shot some amazing groups with my Glocks and have folders full of targets i keep.I'll shoot out to 70yds.

The problem i had is learning the difference between shooting groups and speed. When focused on groups you get caught up in slowly squeezing the trigger and waiting for the perfect sight picture. When timing i was trying to beat the clock as opposed to paying attention to that front sight and despite being able to shoot 4in groups offhand at 40yds i couldnt hit crap at 10 doing El Presidente.

 

[ilbob]

I'll shoot out to 70yds.

What kind of groups do you get with your Glocks at that range? Thats a very tough shot with a handgun.

i used to shoot steel pigs at the 100 yard line with my 45 years ago, but I stopped doing it because it bothered me having to aim over the berms for the shot to drop on the target.

<added> before anyone comments that a 45 doesn't drop that far at 100 yards, I know that. Its an exaggeration. My wimpy reloads dropped maybe 6 or 8 feet. Heftier loads might well have been a better choice for that distance, but thats the rounds I was reloading at the time.

 

[Colt]

When I introduce anyone to shooting, I never shoot as well as I could.

I've seen other guys turn off the student by putting all their shots in the black (at 7 yards) and compounding the pressure on the student.

If you're demonstrating proper form, just put the shots on the paper. Don't shoot a 2-inch group and then hand the gun to a newbie.

Maybe the LEO husbands were taking a similar approach.

 

[buzz_knox]

Of the LEOs I've trained with or observed, some were very good, some were average, and some were frightening due to a lack of skill or concern with safety.

I've only ran into members of the last group once, when they were invited to discuss tactics. They were asked to shoot the qualifier and the LEO in our class got behind cover. When they began sweeping themselves with loaded weapons, we understood why.

 

[Reyn]

What kind of groups do you get with your Glocks at that range? Thats a very tough shot with a handgun

ilbob i dont recall my best at 70yds. My best at 60 was 5.5inches for 5 shots. My best at 40 was 4.5inches for 8 shots. My best at 36yds was 2.5inches. At one point my AVERAGE was 5.5inches at 40yds for 5 shots.The group at 60 was probably 5inches lower than where i wanted to hit but a front sight covers a lot at that distance. I just concentrate on keeping the front sight centered and zone everything out.

My best at 36yds was a fluke. I dont believe i'll ever shoot a group like it again.Ive shot a couple groups under 3inches at 36yd mark but this one had 4 of the 5 in an 1.5 group. I have all the targets. Ive also shot a 9 shot at 28yds that was just over 2inches. All measured outside to outside.

Now these groups werent dead center bulls eye.They may be 2in right or left but they would have hit the head of a person.

I will also say my G20s are the only Glocks i own that i can shoot this well. My 9mms i cant. I also have a G31 and G22. I have also seen some impressive groups done with G21.

My range is in my backyard and i have 2x2 ft concrete slabs that are 7yds,15yds,21yds,25yds,30,yds,36yds,40yds,45,50,60,and i walk 70 off. All markers are measured with a Nikon rangefinder and a Lufkin rolling tape measure.

A lot of times i will just take my gun out back and dryfire continously while concentrating on the front sight.Never fire a round. Just concentrate on the sight and keep the arc movement down.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Selena

imagine you are on the range and a soldier with a 12 ga under his am turns to talk to the man next to him. How long would said soldier remain on that range? I saw this happen at the Pulaski County (police) range. The range officer shrugged his shoulders and told Gramps it wasn't his business when he reported the fool.

I understand what you are saying, and if I had been there I would have done everything in my power to see that the LEO and the RO were removed. But that should not taint all LEOs and yes I have seen similiar actions on the military ranges and the only reason they were corrected was because the ones reporting them followed thru with their complaint. If we see something that we concieve as being wrong we can't just report it and then walk away, or in your case accept it when "The range officer shrugged his and told Gramps it wasn't his business when he reported the fool." Even if we alieninate (PO) others.

By the way, did the RO tell Gramps that it wasn't any of his business or it wasn't any of the RO's business?

 

[Tom Servo]

I've seen other guys turn off the student by putting all their shots in the black (at 7 yards) and compounding the pressure on the student.

+1. One of these days, I'm going to start a "how to teach new shooters the RIGHT way" thread. Pax has a couple of really good points about the matter on her site as well.

When I'm teaching a new shooter, I rarely shoot. I don't want them trying to emulate anything. I want them relaxed, breathing and locked in on the front sight. I'll demonstrate stance and grip, but that's about all my time with a gun in my hand.

If I can get someone away from their friend who "knows guns" for a few minutes, I can get them to shoot better than said friend very quickly.

I do refresher courses for a lot of older folks, and I'd really like to do some for some of the LEOs I've seen. They've got some training, and many have potential. It wouldn't take long to correct a few minor errors, but you just can't approach most about it.

Interesting corollary: all the LEOs I've seen who are good shooters are also very friendly to civilian RKBA.

 

[buzz_knox]

Interesting corollary: all the LEOs I've seen who are good shooters are also very friendly to civilian RKBA.

I wish I could say the same. I met a couple of LEOs who were good shooters but weren't friendly to civilians period.

 

[Havegunjoe]

Most of the LEOs I know only shoot when the department requires it and pays for it. That is enough to worry me.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi Grizzly,

But that should not taint all LEOs .

I don't, I see all people LEO or not on an individual basis. After seeing the action of the few LEO's being defended by all I'm not about to give anyone the benefit of the doubt on the strength of a uniform is all.

By the way, did the RO tell Gramps that it wasn't any of his business or it wasn't any of the RO's business?

Actually he said it was none of Gramps' business and that we were there strictly as observers.

Selena

 

[Officers'Wife]

Grizzly,

Do you have a LEO complex as some on this forum do?

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to ignore this question. I'm not really sure I understand it to be honest with you. My complaint is sloppy workmanship and carelessness. I don't care if its an LEO or the guy that mows my lawn. I expect professionalism from the people that work for me. After seeing some of the outright dangerous habits from LEO's in Indiana and the city of Chicago I'm not about to give the benefit of the doubt based on a uniform. When LEO's try to babbit excuse sloppiness that proves such restraint is justified. If that is an 'LEO complex' then yes, in my eyes and training it's simply common sense. However, the LEO that has pride in his craft and respect in the operation of the tools of his trade has nothing but my respect. But that respect must be earned, it cannot be pinned on with a badge.

Selena

 

[bowl443]

The "High Road" does not include generalizations??? Right??

 

[ilbob]

I wish I could say the same. I met a couple of LEOs who were good shooters but weren't friendly to civilians period.

When will you learn? Cops are just average human beings like everyone else. Some are decent human beings, others are not. Some are friendly to outsiders, some are not. They have no super human powers. They have no special shooting prowess, nor can they read minds.

Most of the LEOs I know only shoot when the department requires it and pays for it. That is enough to worry me.

Most cops never shoot anyone their entire career. I would not be too worried about it. I suspect most cops are no more interested in practicing their shooting skills than you might be practicing your ballet skills. If it is not an interest, most people won't do it. This does tell you something about the risk that cops perceive though. The risk they perceive from their job is obviously fairly low or one would think they would practice more.

 

[ilbob]

i dont recall my best at 70yds. My best at 60 was 5.5inches for 5 shots. My best at 40 was 4.5inches for 8 shots. My best at 36yds was 2.5inches. At one point my AVERAGE was 5.5inches at 40yds for 5 shots.The group at 60 was probably 5inches lower than where i wanted to hit but a front sight covers a lot at that distance. I just concentrate on keeping the front sight centered and zone everything out.

You ever think of taking up bullseye shooting?

 

[buzz_knox]

When will you learn? Cops are just average human beings like everyone else. Some are decent human beings, others are not. Some are friendly to outsiders, some are not. They have no super human powers. They have no special shooting prowess, nor can they read minds.

I know that quite well. I was just responding to that particular post with my own experience.

 

[Macpherson]

My complaint is sloppy workmanship and carelessness. I don't care if its an LEO or the guy that mows my lawn. I expect professionalism from the people that work for me.

Agree with this 100%. Hearing about LEO's or military who exercise poor safety and handling is inexcusable, especially since they have been trained against these things while the average citizen has not. Also, it reflects on the quality of their training and their attitude. If they quite clearly don't put effort into firearms safety and marksmanship, why should we assume that they are completely professional in any of their other responsibilities? Gun safety is gun safety and I don't care who you are.

 

[TCB in TN]

I have many family and friends in LE and have shot with many, and watched a few more shoot. I would consider myself a good shot with a rifle (will discuss my "credentials" later) and just an average shot with a pistol, but I have only seen 2 local LEOs (and no I have not seen all of them) that are as good as I with a pistol/revolver. Most of them are ok shots, not dangerous, but not really skilled either, and while I am NOT a certified trainer or anything like it, I have done quite a bit of shooting and I know the difference between those who know how to shoot and those who don't. Further more when I took my CCW class my instructors (one of whom was a local Deputy and shooting instructor) commented that I shot better than all but 2 guys on the force. (I was not really pushing for groups there either). That really jives with my own experience, and when you factor in the fact that while I have won a lot of informal competitions (shooting matches) here local, there are still plenty of guys who beat me regularly also. BTW that doesn't even count those guys into real serious pistol competition either. I have watched that and I am NOT in that category. Now I have always said that the most important tool for anyone be they LEO or other is the mind, but the LEOs I mentioned above do shoot a little more than just qualifying and they are still not very good.

BTW I would also point out that we did not just stand there and shoot for groups. Much of the time we would introduce physical stress into our shooting with running, or pushups, then run to the line and shoot. Made it more fun, and made us much better shooters as well.