Libertarian Party v. RNC on RKBA

[Michigander]

Thumper,

I'm assuming you are a pro-second amendment kind of person.

Going on that assumption, and seeing as how you wrote,

- I carry a gun all day, every day, with the government's blessing.

as a positive example of how you do not feel oppressed seems to me counterintuitive, ironic, and as though it's perfectly ok with you that you need to ask permission to exercise your human right.

 

[fallingblock]

matis, that was so clear and concise...

"Waiting for the Libertarians to safeguard my gun rights would be fatal.

I'll vote for Republicans who are more likely to protect the 2nd amendment and do whatever else I can to protect my rights."
************************************************************

I'll quote it!

It's good to have the dreamers, for they may provide insight into the situations we face.
The often realized flaw of dreamers (read Libertarian Party here) is that they lack the ability to achieve their dreams.



idd:
************************************************************
"She goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own."

John Quincy Adams, 1823
************************************************************


That's an appropriate quote - for Quincy's era.....the monsters didn't come looking for the US in those days. World communism and the islamofanatics would have got John's attention smartly, I suspect



Greg Bell:
************************************************************
"The Libertarians have it pretty easy. Make grand statements about what you would do if you were in office--and rest assured that you will never have to act on them."
************************************************************

Another excellent analysis!

What does a vote for a "Libertarian" accomplish, anyway?

One may 'feel good' about one's political savvy....

as the Democrats proceed to rape one's rights faster than the Republicans would have.

Very strategic, that plan.

Sort of a "Bring it On" approach to the violation of our (remaining)
Second Amendment freedoms.

Democrats engineered and passed the NFA, GCA '68, and the Brady Act.

Bush is the only realistic pro-gun choice we have for short-term....
long term will see no Libertarian candidates gain national office.

 

[Thumper]

You're not getting what I'm saying. Probably my fault.

Would I rather have Vermont style carry? Of course. Would I rather have no restrictions? Sure.

But things haven't progressed to the point, functionally, where I can't protect myself OR operate effectively against a (realistically) oppressive government.

If you disagree, why don't we read about you in the paper?

 

[Michigander]

Thumper,

If you disagree, why don't we read about you in the paper?

I do not disagree with your choice to play along with the "laws" of the non-oppressive government. It's the only game in town, pragmatically. But using an example of the governments infringements on our rights as a positive argument to demonstrate how we are not oppressed is neither here nor there.

Of course, just because Libertarians espouse principles upon which to base decisions, does not necessarily mean that any Libertarian expects things to change over night. I suppose Libertarians could lie about their positions on the issues in order to achieve their ends (like other parties). That would be OK, right?

 

[Thumper]

As to the Libertarian issue, I think it's kind of a moot point. Even though I find some of the lib ideas attractive, I have about as much expectation of a Libertarian being elected president as I do of winning the lottery.

Do you see any realistic possibility, even in a best case scenario, of a Libertarian President?

 

[Michigander]

Do you see any realistic possibility, even in a best case scenario, of a Libertarian President?

Doesn't matter at this point. My vote for President is the least powerful vote I have. I'd be happy with a strong showing so maybe, just maybe, the third largest party might, just might, get mentioned on CNN or FOX or something. Or, better yet, the Libertarians can share in the Dems and Reps Federally matched fund spoils. That would be a HUGE victory. May take another 4 years, maybe 8, maybe more. But, to me, there is NO other alternative to the one party with two faces that controls everything now and has gotten us where we are over the last century or so.

So, again, which bonesman are you voting for?

 

[Thumper]

So, again, which bonesman are you voting for?

I guess my Reynold's Wrap isn't working. I'm voting for the guy that campaigned and won the Governorship of my great state specifically on his pro gun stance.

 

[Docwithglock]

If you don't vote your conscience, you are just giving up!

It may seem the logical thing to vote for the lesser of two evils in order to get what you hope they might do for freedom. However, if you vote like this you are pretty much resigning yourself to the way things are. If you don't vote your conscience and strive actively for change, then you are ultimately a part of the problem. This perpetuates the status quo, and the cryptic direction in which it is heading. It has been said that politicians have to compromise to get elected, maybe so. But I will not compromise my own conscience, nor will I sit quietly and allow our Freedoms to be trampled upon. The purpose of voting is not to elect one of two people who you hope will do the least harm! I'll be damned if I compromise my Freedoms and vote for someone who will be sending the stormtroopers to take away my Liberties! There is no such thing as a wasted vote in a Free Society. If you truly believe that your vote, for what you believe in, does not matter, then we have already lost more Liberty than anyone is willing to admit.
Do not betray yourself, or your Liberty by not voting your conscience! If both parties are becoming so repugnantly similar, and you are not willing to vote for a third party (that you believe in), then please close your eyes and imagine HAVING TO VOTE FOR ONE PARTY because that is what the future (our future) could be!

 

[Thumper]

I'll be damned if I compromise my Freedoms and vote for someone who will be sending the stormtroopers to take away my Liberties!

Picture John Kerry using Teddy's "bully pulpit" to politically force Congress into further AWB legislation. Can you see him shaking that AK?

Hey Docwithaglock...can I use your entire post over on democraticunderground to promote Nader?

 

[cordex]

It's good to have the dreamers, for they may provide insight into the situations we face.
The often realized flaw of dreamers (read Libertarian Party here) is that they lack the ability to achieve their dreams.

Of course, there's another side to that. The acheivement of dreams that you don't share isn't much of an accomplishment, now is it?

You poor, little self-labled pragmatists might well win victory after victory, but even when you win you're still falling back. Kind of takes the fun out of winning, doesn't it?

Libertarians may not win, but at least they're working for something worthwhile.

Anyway, your vote doesn't matter. No, that's not a general statement, I mean you specifically. Your vote doesn't matter. Your state will go whatever direction it'll go whether or not you cast your vote any particular way, so you might as well vote for whomever most closely resembles your goals whether that is the Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Greens - whichever party works best for you. Except for a very few areas, if you go to the polls expecting your vote to make a difference either in enacting change or staving off The Other Guys, you're deluding yourself worse than the most dreamy eyed Libertarian.

 

[Docwithglock]

The idea that "no one vote matters" is insane! If you think that one vote does not matter then please stay home and don't even bother. If what you are saying is "my vote doesn't matter" then why don't you just give all your money, guns, beliefs, and Freedom to your nearest government office when you cast your vote. Even if your candidate does not get elected, your voice is heard! I agree that after election day (if I was the only person in America to vote for what I believe is right) nobody will probably care how I voted, and I will most likely be considered a fool. But every change starts with one vote! Maybe next time two people will vote like me, and 50 the next time. Eventually my one vote may make enough of a difference that real change does take place. I might be labeled a pragmatist, or a dreamer, but this is how things start to change for the better. You can vote for what is right now and go up against seemingly insurmountable odds, or you can jump on the bandwagon after enough courageous people have gone before you to the point where it seems like a safe enough bet for you to finally vote how you wish you could.
If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything. BE A TRUE AMERICAN AND STAND UP FOR WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN! Otherwise you will have no right to complain when you don't get what you wanted. Then again, without taking a stand and voting our conscience we may not even have the right to complain someday.
There is no room for compromise where LIBERTY is concerned!

 

[fallingblock]

Not to be too contentious, cordex.....

"You poor, little self-labled pragmatists might well win victory after victory, but even when you win you're still falling back. Kind of takes the fun out of winning, doesn't it?'
************************************************************

Nope. Not if losing means the earlier loss of essential freedoms.

************************************************************
"Libertarians may not win, but at least they're working for something worthwhile."
************************************************************

And losing.

The net effect is that the cause loses due to wild-eyed idealism triumphing over a strategy of success.


************************************************************
"Anyway, your vote doesn't matter. No, that's not a general statement, I mean you specifically. Your vote doesn't matter."
************************************************************


Maybe where you voted it didn't count, cordex, but I was one of 537 voters
(absentee votes were counted at the end) in Florida who kept Al out of the Whitehouse and away from the executive controls.

If those 537 Florida voters had voted Libertarian, or thrown up their hands, as so many do, and stayed home, we'd have an AWB to make the current one look like a good alternative and also U.N. imposed restrictions on arms movements and possession.


Docwithglock:
************************************************************
"There is no room for compromise where LIBERTY is concerned!"
************************************************************

We agree on that statement.

We obviously disagree on the strategies for securing our objective.


Is it not a 'compromise' to cast a vote for a party that cannot win, in an election year when so much difference exists between the RKBA stances of the two contending electable parties?

Does not one "compromise" one's cause to allow a known enemy to prevail merely to cling to some 'pure' ideology which is not attainable under the circumstances?

I want to keep and build on the RKBA successes we've had, few though they may be.

Voting Libertarian will not achieve that objective.:banghead:

 

[Docwithglock]

Fallingblock and Cordex,
We seem to have the same goals, and obviously we dissagree on many of the specifics on how to achieve them. I guess I can't really falt people for feeling that their means to an end is in anyway better than mine. I'll try not to judge you for your strategies. But, how far do you have to be pushed before you stand up for yourselves? Maybe you can be comforted by your decisions. Maybe postponing our loss of Freedom is the best thing to hope for. Maybe it is better to fade away, than to burn out. Personally, I am unable to live with not standing up for what I believe in. I may not live in a free society someday, but Freedom begins with actively being free. I could go along to get along, and pretend that it is for all the right reasons. But the moment I do not stand for what I believe, then I am already no longer free.
Change may need people like yourselves, and the idealists. Like you said, one of your votes was one of the very few that kept Al G. out of the White House. I'm just not quite sure that I should say thanks yet. Only time will tell. The idealists give everyone else something to strive for.
In the meantime do what you feel is best, and so will I. Let's face it. We all have to look at ourselves in the mirror after election day (I just hope mirrors are still legal).

 

[dischord]

The net effect is that the cause loses due to wild-eyed idealism triumphing over a strategy of success.

Thus our choices seem to be:

1) The cause loses due to wild-eyed idealism triumphing over a strategy of success. "We may not win much, but at least we stand up for liberty."

2) The cause loses due to a cynical strategy of sucess triumphing over idealism. "We may not stand up for liberty much , but at least we win."

But, let's not forget that you have a tax load amounting to something like a third of your annual income

Actually, it's more like half when you factor in all state and local taxes, fees and other tax euphemisms, plus the taxes in the manufacturing chain that add to the costs of products.

 

[Michigander]

I guess my Reynold's Wrap isn't working. I'm voting for the guy that campaigned and won the Governorship of my great state specifically on his pro gun stance.

"Pro gun." Wait, I gotta stop laughing....

So, you would say then that Bush signing the AWB or it's replacement is OK because its only a compromise and it just so happens that that is how things work in the Dem/Rep version of the capitol. So that is OK, principles be damed!

Hello! Can any of you Bush supporters see what you write? Just the mere fact that we have a Rep president/congress and yet we still debate whether or not "the powers that be" (Reps in this case) will allow this stupid, ignorant legislation to continue!!!!!!!!!!!!! :banghead: I know, I know, all in the name of COMPROMISE!!!!.

 

[cordex]

The idea that "no one vote matters" is insane! If you think that one vote does not matter then please stay home and don't even bother.

Insane though it may be, except for a few cases like fallingblock's where the candidates are seperated by a few votes, individual votes don't count towards getting someone elected or keeping The Other Guy out of office. Just because I realize that no matter who I vote for, Indiana will go Republican in the next Presidential race doesn't mean I should stay home and not vote at all. Better to vote my beliefs, right?

Not if losing means the earlier loss of essential freedoms.

Actually, as I see it, losing means the earlier loss of a different set of essential freedoms. I'll reserve my final judgement until after September 2004, but so far I'm not impressed at what Repubs to the left and Repubs the right have gotten us, what with Patriot I and II and such.

I've already told my Senators and Representative that how I vote for them hinges on a couple of votes that they make. I'm not entirely without a pragmatic streak (or entirely committed to voting straight Libertarian), but the blind support of (R) because it is better than (D) just makes me laugh.

The net effect is that the cause loses due to wild-eyed idealism triumphing over a strategy of success.

Even in your victories, fallingblock, even in your victories.

Is it not a 'compromise' to cast a vote for a party that cannot win, in an election year when so much difference exists between the RKBA stances of the two contending electable parties?

To an extent, it certainly is a comprimise.
Let's not make the mistake of assuming that the two contending electable parties have substantially different stances on RKBA. Both stand for "reasonable restrictions". The distance between those restrictions is measured with a micrometer, not an odometer.

I think dischord put it nicely. We either choose to rarely win but stand up for what we believe, or win often but not stand up for our beliefs.

 

[Moparmike]

One may 'feel good' about one's political savvy....

as the Democrats proceed to rape one's rights faster than the Republicans would have.

Very strategic, that plan.

So by your own words, you would rather have someone who will rape your rights slower. So you will actively support someone who will rape your rights. Gee, that sounds like a good plan.

I will not vote for a rapist, wether his victims are women or my rights. I cant believe what some of you people type, and it boggles my mind how you actually believe it.

 

[dustind]

Sadly we have been loosing freedom for over a hundred years. Many cheer it on as long as they get their own pet issue.

 

[Il Duce]

Hypocrisy in action...

Excuse my tone, but those of you lauding the principles of the libertarian party seem to be a bit hypocritical. This country was built with and successful because of the constitution and bill of rights. They are the foundation of our country. They cannot be changed (w/o an ammendment). Just as it is with gun rights, so it is with the rest of it.

Open borders? Are you kidding me? Non-Aggression Policy? Come on!

Don't get me wrong...I agree with a lot of the things libertarians stand for. But there are some glaring issues that a strict constitutionalist like myself just can't agree with.

Open borders and Non-Aggression will get our rights taken away much quicker than the Republican or Comm...I mean, Democrats, ever could. Without protecting our borders and acting against those who pose a serious threat to us, we'd be having daily battles in the streets and bombs blowing up the buildings we work in.

The constitution party seems the best route to me.
www.constitutionparty.com

Just a thought...I could be wrong.

 

[TechBrute]

I'm starting my own political party. Personal freedom is paramount. Laws should only govern the way you interact with society, not how you live your life.

Other countries have no rights, only the priviledges we grant them. Close the borders.

A powerful military gives people opportunities, gives the nation security, and develops new technologies.

Government assistance is for a helping hand, not a way of life.

 

[idd]

fallingblock:

That's an appropriate quote - for Quincy's era.....the monsters didn't come looking for the US in those days.

On the contrary, fallingblock. You should look at US history during the period 1800 - 1823. The British Empire had kidnapped 10,000 Americans to work as slaves in the British navy. The British had seized more than 1000 American ships on the high seas. British troops invaded American soil and allied with Indians, the Brits rolled into D.C. and burned the White House in 1814. Even after Old Hickory routed the Brits at New Orleans (700 British soldiers KIA; Americans lost eight), European powers maintained a colonial presence in the Caribbean. Spain controlled Florida, British warships still patrolled in the Gulf of Mexico, there were reports that te Brits were arming Indians and encouraging them to revolt.

And yet you say that monsters "didn't come looking for the US in those days"?

 

[Moparmike]

Its your vote, but...

Umm, Constitution Party? No thanks.

The Constitution Party is the only party which is completely pro-life, anti-homosexual rights, pro-American sovereignty, anti-globalist, anti-free trade, anti-deindustrialization, anti-unchecked immigration, pro-second amendment, and against the constantly increasing expansion of unlawful police laws, in favor of a strong national defense and opposed to unconstitutional interventionism.

Taken from here.

Doesnt sound very freedom-minded to me.

 

[TechBrute]

The Constitution Party: Complete freedom for people that agree with us completely.

 

[fix]

But, to me, there is NO other alternative to the one party with two faces that controls everything now and has gotten us where we are over the last century or so.

In the last 100 years...

We became the most powerful country in the world.
We became the wealthiest country in the world.
We remained (despite setbacks) the most free country in the world.
We remained (again, despite significan setbacks) the most moral country in the world.
We became the most generous country in the world.
We are....I could go on and on and on.

...and all that without a libertarian to speak of.

Had the Libertarians been running things, we'd be speaking another language and none of us would own firearms. Russian, German, Japanese, Chinese...your guess is as good as mine.

 

[fix]

Constitution Party vs Liberaltarians as I see it

Libertarian Party = Extreme Right Wing Democrats
Constitution Party = Extreme Right Wing Republicans