Liberty Civil Defense .45 ACP +P 78 Grain Copper HP 1900 fps,

[stinger 327]

OR
Liberty 9mm Luger +P 50gr JHP 2000 fps Brass 20 Round

What are the advantages and disadvantages of this special ultra light ammo that travels at very high velocities?
Same goes for the new Ruger ARX or Poly Ammo from Interceptor.

Especially when compared to ammo loads in same calibers like Hornady Critical Defense and Critical Duty with the standard weights of 230 grain and 115 grain bullets?

 

[kozak6]

They tend to create spectacular but VERY shallow wound channels. We're talking something like 5 or 6 inches of penetration.

The FBI found that something closer to 12" is more appropriate.

For indoor defense, some people might prefer them since they are less likely to penetrate walls.

Otherwise, they are mostly a gimmick.

 

[Rubber_Duck]

They are a gimmick, don't waste your money.

 

[stinger 327]

They tend to create spectacular but VERY shallow wound channels. We're talking something like 5 or 6 inches of penetration.

The FBI found that something closer to 12" is more appropriate.

For indoor defense, some people might prefer them since they are less likely to penetrate walls.

Otherwise, they are mostly a gimmick.

So on a 5 inch .45 ACP one is better off using the standard 230 grain bullet from Hornady Critical Defense or Critical Duty or a 185 Critical Defense bullet polymer tip hollowpoint? Or does it make a difference since even a .45 acp is a slow bullet and using FMJ still makes a big hole and ensures reliability in feeding.

 

[Rubber_Duck]

Deleted.

 

[Sunray]

Unlikely to cycle the action of any pistol. Physics being physics.

 

[stinger 327]

Unlikely to cycle the action of any pistol. Physics being physics.

What load is t hat?

 

[stinger 327]

Unlikely to cycle the action of any pistol. Physics being physics.

 

[AZAndy]

So on a 5 inch .45 ACP one is better off using the standard 230 grain bullet from Hornady Critical Defense or Critical Duty or a 185 Critical Defense bullet polymer tip hollowpoint? Or does it make a difference since even a .45 acp is a slow bullet and using FMJ still makes a big hole and ensures reliability in feeding.

You might enjoy looking through these tests. They should give you an idea of what's good and what's less good. I'm a fan of 230gn HST, myself, but there are lots of reasonable choices.

 

[Rubber_Duck]

So on a 5 inch .45 ACP one is better off using the standard 230 grain bullet from Hornady Critical Defense or Critical Duty or a 185 Critical Defense bullet polymer tip hollowpoint? Or does it make a difference since even a .45 acp is a slow bullet and using FMJ still makes a big hole and ensures reliability in feeding.

You'll want to stick to 230 grain bullets in .45 ACP. The 185 grain bullets in this caliber will have a lower sectional density which reduces penetration.

 

[sgt127]

We carried Glock 35's for a number of years. Somehow, we wound up with the Corbon 135 gr .40 as our issue ammo.

Ferociously fast round. In a couple shootings, it did "ok". The problem is, you give up alot of penetration for a vicious, though shallow, wound.

Imagine a threat turned sideways and having to get through a prison built bicep to get to the important stuff.

Having seen as many shootings as I have, I'll take accuracy and penetration over expansion and velocity.

 

[strambo]

The raw physics of 50g @ 2000fps is fine...approaching 5.56 out of an SBR territory. The problem is the projectile is all wrong. Make a projectile that holds together for 12-13" penetration then you'll have something. At 2000 fps, the temp cavity will also cause permanent tissue damage like a rifle.

I haven't seen any exotic pistol ammo I'd trust over the proven loads like Gold dot, HST, Ranger SXT etc. The G2 "RIP" is the best performance of an exotic I've seen, not good enough to be worth the price though.

Great video comparing the RIP to the Gold Dot and outlining what performance in a human body means vs. gel and also graphically shows why penetration is vital. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/04/daniel-zimmerman/g2-rip-ammo-test-part-3-rip-vs-gold-dot/

 

[SA/DA FAN]

I haven't seen any exotic pistol ammo I'd trust over the proven loads like Gold dot, HST, Ranger SXT etc.

Not sure I'm sold on Lehigh in 9mm and up but I do like and use the Underwood .32 acp Xtreme cavitator in my .32 KelTec. Penetration AND wound channel in that caliber are head and shoulders above any other .32 ammo. IMO it makes the little .32 a very viable SD round. I might do the .380 if I had one also.

 

[Tirod]

Every ammo test I've seen on the lightweight high speed stuff seems to function fine. Performance on target was the issue. No ammo maker is going to have a decent market very long if his stuff won't cycle the slide, and nobody is reporting that as a problem.

I use Hornady but I've seen tests where a particular cartridge doesn't rate top dog in an ammo test. Their Critical Defense and Critical Duty isn't bad ammo by any measure but the tests online I've read generally put it only in the top third of it's class. Again, not junk, but there seems to be this concept where it's proclaimed the new standard when in point of fact it is just another choice. When we start talking ammo it does go to the specific barrel length - which is why we see so much improved performance out of 3" .380s as the ammo makers were optimized at 4". They mixed up the powder a tad differently and the results are measurable on the target and thru the velocity screens.

This is why no one ammo can be said to be "best" or used as a reference as it may only be middle of the road in a specific application. Another guideline is simply availability - Critical D is hard to find locally. I just use American Gunner and live with it. Can the difference be measured, yes, we are talking an incremental difference in penetration - both usually have a minimum of 12" so then it becomes a discussion of shot placement, and that is entirely up to shooter skill under stress at the time of the incident.

For the difference in price of the exotic ammo you can save for an extra box of the normal stuff which will go further to making you a better shooter than depending on a hyped explanation promising evisceration and mounting as part of the deal. I don't plan to hang trophies over my fireplace and I doubt any of us would be allowed to.

The exotic ammo market exists because there are uninformed and impressionable shooters out there who are still learning that some people in the industry sell stuff because they can, not because it has any special value.

 

[stinger 327]

Every ammo test I've seen on the lightweight high speed stuff seems to function fine. Performance on target was the issue. No ammo maker is going to have a decent market very long if his stuff won't cycle the slide, and nobody is reporting that as a problem.

I use Hornady but I've seen tests where a particular cartridge doesn't rate top dog in an ammo test. Their Critical Defense and Critical Duty isn't bad ammo by any measure but the tests online I've read generally put it only in the top third of it's class. Again, not junk, but there seems to be this concept where it's proclaimed the new standard when in point of fact it is just another choice. When we start talking ammo it does go to the specific barrel length - which is why we see so much improved performance out of 3" .380s as the ammo makers were optimized at 4". They mixed up the powder a tad differently and the results are measurable on the target and thru the velocity screens.

This is why no one ammo can be said to be "best" or used as a reference as it may only be middle of the road in a specific application. Another guideline is simply availability - Critical D is hard to find locally. I just use American Gunner and live with it. Can the difference be measured, yes, we are talking an incremental difference in penetration - both usually have a minimum of 12" so then it becomes a discussion of shot placement, and that is entirely up to shooter skill under stress at the time of the incident.

For the difference in price of the exotic ammo you can save for an extra box of the normal stuff which will go further to making you a better shooter than depending on a hyped explanation promising evisceration and mounting as part of the deal. I don't plan to hang trophies over my fireplace and I doubt any of us would be allowed to.

The exotic ammo market exists because there are uninformed and impressionable shooters out there who are still learning that some people in the industry sell stuff because they can, not because it has any special value.

tHERE is Critical Defense and Critical Duty. What's the difference between those two?

 

[Shaq]

There is no advantage to using a light bullet to get impressive velocities in a given caliber. The ft. lbs. of energy will not increase because energy is a result of both weight and velocity. What matters more is momentum, and a lighter bullet has less momentum. A faster bullet that weighs less will generate the same energy as a slower bullet that weighs more.
Example: a 9mm bullet weighing 115 gr. generates the same energy as a 45 ACP bullet weighing 230 grains - around 370 ft. lbs.
Manufacturers of such ammo are banking on the lack of ballistics knowledge to sell a product that offers nothing over standard-weight bullets.

 

[Rubber_Duck]

tHERE is Critical Defense and Critical Duty. What's the difference between those two?

Critical Duty is designed to meet or exceed the FBI protocol, which is to pass though several different types of intermediate barriers and still achieve 12-18 inches of penetration into gel. Critical Defense is purposely designed with less penetration in mind for the civilian. Also, Critical Duty is optimized for full-size handguns whereas Critical Defense is designed with compact/short-barrel CCW handguns in mind.

Edit to add: straight from the horse's mouth: http://www.hornady.com/support/critical-duty-and-critical-defense

While Federal 147-grain HST is my primary carry load, I have a large stockpile of Critical Duty 135-grain +P because it is excellent ammo and I got a great deal on it. For me, intermediate barrier penetration is important.

 

[Monac]

There is no advantage to using a light bullet to get impressive velocities in a given caliber. The ft. lbs. of energy will not increase because energy is a result of both weight and velocity. What matters more is momentum, and a lighter bullet has less momentum. A faster bullet that weighs less will generate the same energy as a slower bullet that weighs more.
Example: a 9mm bullet weighing 115 gr. generates the same energy as a 45 ACP bullet weighing 230 grains - around 370 ft. lbs.
Manufacturers of such ammo are banking on the lack of ballistics knowledge to sell a product that offers nothing over standard-weight bullets.

A) The formula for the kinetic energy of a moving object is 1/2 the mass times the square of the velocity. Therefore, as mass goes down but velocity increases, kinetic energy goes up. Look at any book of cartridge ballistic data - for the same load, as bullet weight decreases, kinetic energy increases. This is with the same chamber pressure.

B) "What matters more is momentum, and a lighter bullet has less momentum." The importance of momentum (which is mass times velocity) was overstated for many years in regards to cartridge effectiveness, mainly because it made big but slow bullets, which were the favorites of many American shooters, look good. The problem is, it just isn't so. Kinetic energy has proven a much better measure of cartridge effectiveness, and this is, presumably, the selling point of rounds like the Liberty.

Momentum is, if I understand correctly, a big factor in properly cycling the action of a recoil-operated firearm, and this goes to Sunray's point about the Liberty rounds being unlikely to operate the action of any gun set up for conventional 45/9mm ammo.

I do not mean to pick on Shaq in this comment; mostly I wrote it to get things straight in my own mind. Thanks!

BTW, this article is about French and South African experiments with ultra-light copper bullets: http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/THV.htm

 

[stinger 327]

A) The formula for the kinetic energy of a moving object is 1/2 the mass times the square of the velocity. Therefore, as mass goes down but velocity increases, kinetic energy goes up. Look at any book of with cartridge ballistic data - for the same load, as bullet weight decreases, kinetic energy increases. This is with the same chamber pressure.

B) "What matters more is momentum, and a lighter bullet has less momentum." The importance of momentum (which is mass times velocity) was overstated for many years in regards to cartridge effectiveness, mainly because it made big but slow bullets, which were the favorites of many American shooters, look good. The problem is, it just isn't so. Kinetic energy has proven a much better measure of cartridge effectiveness, and this is, presumably, the selling point of rounds like the Liberty.

Momentum is, if I understand correctly, a big factor in properly cycling the action of a recoil-operated firearm, and this goes to Sunray's point about the Liberty rounds being unlikely to operate the action of any gun set up for conventional 45/9mm ammo.

I do not mean to pick on Shaq in this comment; mostly I wrote it to get things straight in my own mind. Thanks!

BTW, this article is about French and South African experiments with ultra-light copper bullets: http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/THV.htm

sO like for .45 acp it's best to stick with 230 grain. .357 125 grain. 9mm 124 grain. I believe these are the standard loadings for these calibers. In revolver form any weight will work as the revolver is not ammo dependent as far as ammo cycling goes.

 

[strambo]

BTW, this article is about French and South African experiments with ultra-light copper bullets: http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/THV.htm

Very interesting article, thanks for posting that!