Loads for home defense?
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MtnCreek
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I've seen Sam1911 comment on this a few times. In one thread I stated that I use #4 Buck. He responded that was as light as he would use and recommended 00.
Rail Driver
Member
Personally I use Winchester PDX1 (Slug and buck) loads. Birdshot is for birds.
SlowFuse
Member
I wouldn't rely on turkey loads or birdshot for HD. While I'm sure neither would feel good, I don't see these as a viable "stopper". Some people will argue that something like BB sized shot is good for people living in close quarters. Personally, My shotguns meant for HD purposes are loaded with #1 buck if its a 12 gauge with 00 being a close 2nd choice. #3 buck gets the nod if it's a 20 gauge simply because that's about all you will find. You'll find an array of opinions from people stating anything from birdshot to slugs will work.
kcshooter
Member
00 buck, #1 buck, or #4 buck are your best options. 00 has pretty serious ability to penetrate walls, if that's a concern. #4 is considered the minimum acceptable size, and overpenetration concerns are lessened using it. All of these are threat stopping rounds.
Birdshot, turkey loads, #4 field loads, none of these are sufficient for defensive use.
LOTS of threads on this already. Here's the best : http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=608952
Birdshot, turkey loads, #4 field loads, none of these are sufficient for defensive use.
LOTS of threads on this already. Here's the best : http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=608952
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B1gGr33n
Member
Search is your friend, but I'll put my $0.02 in anyway.
00 Buck, hands down, #4 Buck minimum, absolutely no slugs.
I know my house is plaster on lath, and 00 will not overpenetrate any wall in it. If you're unsure of your home's construction, ask a professional. This is a very serious point! Even one pellet going thru a wall will pose a serious threat to occupants, like your children! If you want to be sure, like I did, you can easily and cheaply construct a test sample of your wall and actually shoot it at less than 15 feet to see if it will penetrate. If it does, consider lower power police loads. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me. I did this test, and fired 3 loads at the same spot on the test wall to be sure, just in case. Had a good hole on my side, but all pellets stopped inside the wall.
00 Buck, hands down, #4 Buck minimum, absolutely no slugs.
I know my house is plaster on lath, and 00 will not overpenetrate any wall in it. If you're unsure of your home's construction, ask a professional. This is a very serious point! Even one pellet going thru a wall will pose a serious threat to occupants, like your children! If you want to be sure, like I did, you can easily and cheaply construct a test sample of your wall and actually shoot it at less than 15 feet to see if it will penetrate. If it does, consider lower power police loads. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me. I did this test, and fired 3 loads at the same spot on the test wall to be sure, just in case. Had a good hole on my side, but all pellets stopped inside the wall.
MtnCreek
Member
Added note on bird shot. Dove season is coming up soon (yea!). There will be a lot of doves that meet their end as a result of the cranking action (like starting a model T) after being shot with #7.5 birdshot. 
LeonCarr
Member
What B1g Gr33n said.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
lemaymiami
Member
An ordinary 2 3/4 inch 12ga round with standard 00buck loading is the absolute standard in close quarters work. That's all that most police shotguns were set up with for years and years. Yes, you do have to take into consideration your background and penetration issues if you're going to be shooting inside or into a dwelling, but if your target is not under cover the ordinary 00buck round is simply a terribly efficient man stopper at ranges under 25 meters. You'll want to pattern your weapon with that round to verify the pattern at various distances, but an ordinary improved cylinder 18" barrel should disperse the shot at roughly one inch per meter (in other words at 7 meters your pattern should be 7").
Many want something either extra powerful or more heavily loaded but you gain little advantage over the standard. If you needed to engage out to 50 meters then (and only then) I'd recommend a rifled slug.
The only addtional advice I'd offer is the same that I gave my young officers..... Aim a bit low if you actually have to use that shotgun....
Many want something either extra powerful or more heavily loaded but you gain little advantage over the standard. If you needed to engage out to 50 meters then (and only then) I'd recommend a rifled slug.
The only addtional advice I'd offer is the same that I gave my young officers..... Aim a bit low if you actually have to use that shotgun....
bubba in ca
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Short answer: it doesn`t matter as long as it is buck.
Long answer: 1 buck, 00 buck, or 4 buck (if the particular make and model will penetrate 12 inches of balistic jell).
Whatever you use , pattern your ammo in your gun to see how it spreads at the distances you think you are likely to use it. You`ll probably find that the spread at room distances is about 4 inches.
You can spend an evening researching comments on using birdshot for HD to the effect that felons are tougher than birds.
Long answer: 1 buck, 00 buck, or 4 buck (if the particular make and model will penetrate 12 inches of balistic jell).
Whatever you use , pattern your ammo in your gun to see how it spreads at the distances you think you are likely to use it. You`ll probably find that the spread at room distances is about 4 inches.
You can spend an evening researching comments on using birdshot for HD to the effect that felons are tougher than birds.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
As with most such questions, there's one basic answer - it depends .
It depends on your circumstances (kind of dwelling, family members, neighbors etc.) and issues of overpenetration/misses endangering innocents. It depends on the longest range you might need to cover. It depends on what you might be defending against (human housebreakers, or bears?). And so on.
Personally I use 00 buck in the magazines (Federal LE-127 00) with Brenneke KO slugs in the Sidesaddles. No one here but the two of us, closest neighbors are a goodly distance away, and if I have to go outside with a shotgun I might have to cover a long way (from the front door to the gate is 51 yards).
Your needs may vary however... choose your load(s) based on your own circumstances.
.It depends on your circumstances (kind of dwelling, family members, neighbors etc.) and issues of overpenetration/misses endangering innocents. It depends on the longest range you might need to cover. It depends on what you might be defending against (human housebreakers, or bears?). And so on.
Personally I use 00 buck in the magazines (Federal LE-127 00) with Brenneke KO slugs in the Sidesaddles. No one here but the two of us, closest neighbors are a goodly distance away, and if I have to go outside with a shotgun I might have to cover a long way (from the front door to the gate is 51 yards).
Your needs may vary however... choose your load(s) based on your own circumstances.
In this order: 1B, 00. #4 buck is only marginal. I use LE132 1B or LE132 00, with a couple of Brenneke SF Short Magnum or KO slugs in the sidesaddle
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot56.htm
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot56.htm
Low recoil buckshot loads. Either Federal LE 132 00 9 pellet or LE 132 15 pellet #1 buckshot if you can find it. I prefer low recoil loads for faster follow up shots if needed.
I just realized that in these discussions the focus is almost always on shot size, but there are other things that I'd consider also - like the quality of the brass.
Of course any loading should be tested in your own gun.
As far as patterning your shots...
Federal makes their FLITECONTROL ammo in #1 Buck now:
http://le.atk.com/general/federalproducts/shotshell/tacticalbuckshot.aspx
They call it Low Recoil... it's 15 pellets @1100 fps
The FLITECONTROL shotshell is going to produce a tight pattern, or a tighter pattern than you'd get with average shotgun ammo.
Of course any loading should be tested in your own gun.
As far as patterning your shots...
Federal makes their FLITECONTROL ammo in #1 Buck now:
http://le.atk.com/general/federalproducts/shotshell/tacticalbuckshot.aspx
They call it Low Recoil... it's 15 pellets @1100 fps
The FLITECONTROL shotshell is going to produce a tight pattern, or a tighter pattern than you'd get with average shotgun ammo.
Birdshot is likely to leave gruesome, shallow holes, that will cause a lot of pain and complications down the road, but may not necessarily stop the attack. Buckshot also has the potential to fail to stop the attack, but it is more likely to penetrate deep enough to hit vital organs (assuming proper placement, of course).
Adding extra lead doesn't necessarily make a shotgun more "lethal", but it does add recoil. If you shoot 9 pellets of 00B from a 2.75" shell, you're going to hit the same "stuff" as you would with 18 pellets from a 3.5" shell. You just damage more tissue with the 3.5" shell. So the higher-lead loads aren't necessarily more likely to stop the attack.
Most home defense situations are going to be so close that whether your shotgun patterns 1" per yard or 1" per 10 yards won't matter.
My personal belief is this:
--Birdshot with a number is most likely going to fail to penetrate. I would recommend avoiding using fine birdshot if at all possible.
--Birdshot with a letter (or letters) is on the very low end of penetration, but will be fine for a straight shot. I wouldn't suggest this, but wouldn't necessarily advise against it.
--Buckshot, ranging anywhere from #4 to 000, is going to scale from the low- to high-end of penetration. All will do the job. For 12-gauge, people tend to quote #1 buck as the "best", #4 buck will give more wound tracts and surface area for damage, 00 will penetrate a bit better. My preference is #1.
Adding extra lead doesn't necessarily make a shotgun more "lethal", but it does add recoil. If you shoot 9 pellets of 00B from a 2.75" shell, you're going to hit the same "stuff" as you would with 18 pellets from a 3.5" shell. You just damage more tissue with the 3.5" shell. So the higher-lead loads aren't necessarily more likely to stop the attack.
Most home defense situations are going to be so close that whether your shotgun patterns 1" per yard or 1" per 10 yards won't matter.
My personal belief is this:
--Birdshot with a number is most likely going to fail to penetrate. I would recommend avoiding using fine birdshot if at all possible.
--Birdshot with a letter (or letters) is on the very low end of penetration, but will be fine for a straight shot. I wouldn't suggest this, but wouldn't necessarily advise against it.
--Buckshot, ranging anywhere from #4 to 000, is going to scale from the low- to high-end of penetration. All will do the job. For 12-gauge, people tend to quote #1 buck as the "best", #4 buck will give more wound tracts and surface area for damage, 00 will penetrate a bit better. My preference is #1.
For 12br best load would be low recoil (ie low velocity) buck numero UNO. Never cared for any of the other gauges.
Mine, an FN SLP, that has screw in chokes and ghost ring sights is loaded with #4 buckshot and has a tight .680 turkey choke. This combo was arrived at searching for a good coyote load after reading an on-going sticky over at PredatorMaster forum. This combo shoots well to 50+ yards and is less likely to cause collateral damage to my neighbors than the traditional OO buck loads.
The above mentioned thread has been ongoing since 2001 and has a wealth of research on effective loads. It is now 43 pages in length and someone just posted some findings regarding Federals new #1 buck load with flitecontrol wad that look VERY interesting. Some VERY good groups out to 40 yards from an cylinder bore choke. It's also a low recoil load. @ 1100 fps, which seems in some reading I've done seems to actually promote better perfomance over hotter loads by reducing pellet deformation. I plan on trying some of this ammo with IC & MOD chokes as those would allow use of slugs w/o changing chokes.
The above mentioned thread has been ongoing since 2001 and has a wealth of research on effective loads. It is now 43 pages in length and someone just posted some findings regarding Federals new #1 buck load with flitecontrol wad that look VERY interesting. Some VERY good groups out to 40 yards from an cylinder bore choke. It's also a low recoil load. @ 1100 fps, which seems in some reading I've done seems to actually promote better perfomance over hotter loads by reducing pellet deformation. I plan on trying some of this ammo with IC & MOD chokes as those would allow use of slugs w/o changing chokes.
Read my earlier post in this thread. I have been using LE132 00 for over three years and the new LE132 1B for about two months. I posted links to a review of HD loads in general by the Firearms Tactical Institute and another by The Box O'Truth of LE132 1B. And, while #4 buck might be a good coyote load, it is considered by most to be only marginal for HD, as it does not reliably penetrate enough to reach the vital organs. I can also tell you that, if you are going to try LE132 1B (or any FliteControl shell), my best results have been from an open, CYL bore (and, to a lesser extent I/C), not from tightly restricted chokes.
kcshooter
Member
^Please.
If he's patterned HIS gun and knows what THAT load in HIS gun is capable of, who are YOU to tell him different?
#4 Buck is perfectly acceptable for defensive use, and is preferable when an overpenetration concern is present. It is the smallest that is considered effective, but it is universally considered effective.
Is #1 or 00 a better penetrator than #4? Absolutely.
Keep that in mind if your neighbors walls are close to yours.
An unscientific statement by the guys at box of truth that #4 isn't good enough because it only went thru 3 milk jugs instead of 4 is useless and irrelevant. They are entertaining, but very seldom a valid source for citation as experts. Firearms Tactical makes a summary of other's work, with no testing of their own.
Here's a MUCH more comprehensive test of #4 Buck that shows just how effective it is.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/12 gauge number four buckshot.pdf
If you look at images of #4 penetration in gel, you'll find that 11-15" is the standard, not the exception. I've witnessed gel penetration tests of multiple rounds, calibers, and gauges in person. I've seen nothing to make me think that #4 isn't enough to get the job done.
Choices like this need to be made on each individual situation. A sweeping statement that 00 or #1 is THE best isn't universally true. Fred stated his front gate is 51 yards from his front door. Some people can't shoot 50 feet without hitting a neighbor. Think those situations require the same ammunition considerations?
If he's patterned HIS gun and knows what THAT load in HIS gun is capable of, who are YOU to tell him different?
Who are these "most"?
#4 Buck is perfectly acceptable for defensive use, and is preferable when an overpenetration concern is present. It is the smallest that is considered effective, but it is universally considered effective.
Is #1 or 00 a better penetrator than #4? Absolutely.
Keep that in mind if your neighbors walls are close to yours.
An unscientific statement by the guys at box of truth that #4 isn't good enough because it only went thru 3 milk jugs instead of 4 is useless and irrelevant. They are entertaining, but very seldom a valid source for citation as experts. Firearms Tactical makes a summary of other's work, with no testing of their own.
Here's a MUCH more comprehensive test of #4 Buck that shows just how effective it is.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/12 gauge number four buckshot.pdf
If you look at images of #4 penetration in gel, you'll find that 11-15" is the standard, not the exception. I've witnessed gel penetration tests of multiple rounds, calibers, and gauges in person. I've seen nothing to make me think that #4 isn't enough to get the job done.
Choices like this need to be made on each individual situation. A sweeping statement that 00 or #1 is THE best isn't universally true. Fred stated his front gate is 51 yards from his front door. Some people can't shoot 50 feet without hitting a neighbor. Think those situations require the same ammunition considerations?
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Where did you get the LE132 1B? Do you know where it is currently available?
I still go with the ones who say #1 is probably the 'best' because it is the smallest size that reliably penetrates far enough in gel/tissue and thus has the most surface area of wound tracts among all buckshot that meets reliable penetration requirement.
That said, when I lived in an apartment I used to load 2 3/4" mag #4 buck (34 pellets, slightly less velocity than the non-mag 27 pellet version) as the first two shells.
Centurian22
Member
My four 12ga 2 3/4" rounds are 2 - Steel BB, followed by 2 - 00 Buck. My reasoning for this is the close quarters and layout of my home. The master bedroom is at the opposite end of the house from the other two bedrooms. This means there is a significant chance of the BG being encountered while im on my way to baracade / protect my children. With family located in rooms that will potentially be in the line of fire, I chose the bird shot to avoid over penetration, however at the close ranges (nothing possible more than 5yrds), it will still be fairly detrimental to soft tissue, and allow me to reposition for shots three and four if necessary to ensure a safe background. All are Federal brand fwiw.
Yep, out of a .680 turkey choke, for coyotes
#4 is "universally considered effective"?
By whom? There is not a single LE agency that I know of that specifies #4 buck. And for good reason: it will not reliably penetrate enough to reach the vital organs, and thus cannot be considered a good enough stopper. And, as for your over-penetration argument (which is pretty stale at this point): As Old Painless so aptly said, "But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.
Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side".
Sorry, but I will trust my own observations, over a period of nearly 40 years, as to the effectiveness of various loads for HD, as well as the reports of reliable organizations, such as the Firearms Tactical Institute, the FBI, and various LE agencies, over your observations.
Circumstances can certainly dictate the choice of ammunition.
I only use LE132 00 and LE132 1B because I want every pellet to hit the target, and those loads (along with LE127 00) are the tightest patterning, most effective shells I have ever used. In addition, both LE132 00 and LE132 1B are low velocity loads. In any case, at 51 yds, I will be reaching for slugs, rather than buckshot. Are 00 and 1B universally considered the best? I think that "most" would consider that to be true, and I don't think that can be said for #4.
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