Unfortunately, demand is very high and most distribution is being designated for LEOs, and that will be the case until supply catches up with demand. The same scenario was true when LE 132 00 was first introduced. Ammoman.com had stock a couple of months ago and I purchased a case, but he sold out within days. I just purchased another 10 boxes at GT Distributors (at a great price): http://www.gtdist.com/ProductDetail.aspx?PartNumber=FC-LE1321B
Loads for home defense?
- Thread starter rajb123
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kcshooter
Member
Good, then my link above to the Brassfetcher testing, including photos and very complete detailed information, showing that the test results of #4 buck meets all of the accepted requirements of penetration ought to be enough to get you see that #4 is perfectly acceptable and in some situations is actually preferable. But I'm sure you'll continue to spout that the only answer is LE132 1B, as you've done in multiple threads.
What? Are you having trouble keeping up with the conversation, or are you deliberately trying to put words in my mouth that I never said or even implied?
Like using a choke, which you scoffed at earlier? Funny, I have #4 loads that will outpattern #1 loads at any distance in my gun.
Again, overpenetration concerns are exactly what we are talking about using #4 for, and you have given more validity to it with this statement.
While that's advice everyone should take, that's not what we're talking about here. My advice is to choose your load based on your gun and your situation. Oh, and not to listen to those who state one particular round is what everyone should be using in every situation in every shotgun. Of course, that's something people who have actually gotten training would have learned, so maybe that advice stands.
Again, I'm NOT saying #4 is the best. I'm saying that it works, and there is evidence that backs up my claim that it's proven to work, and there is NO proof that it DOESN'T work, and your statement is based on one website's analysis of other peoples info, and one website where some guys shoot stuff in their backyard. Basically, you don't have an argument valid enough to convince anyone, and you're just coming off as a #1 buck fanboy.
Unless you can quote a statement from a person who survived a proper hit of #4 buck at home defense distances, I wouldn't tell anyone that is isn't an acceptable choice.
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By saying that my statement is based on "one website's analysis of other peoples info", I assume you are referring to the "Firearms Tactical Institute". FYI, that independent organization is considered to be one of the foremost authorities on firearms, ballistics, and the wounding effects of ammunition. They perform "laboratory grade terminal ballistic testing of rifle, handgun, and shotgun ammunition". They do make reference to and work alongside some other experts is the field, including the International Wound Ballistics Association, which also considers #1 buck the foremost HD load. That organization publishes "Wound Ballistics Review", which is one of the definitive publications in the field. You might also want to read works by both Dr. Martin Fackler and Duncan MacPherson on bullet penetration and wounding ballistics.
And, by, "one website where some guys shoot stuff in their backyard", I assume you are referring to Old_Painless and The Box O'Truth website. FYI, Old_Painless is often consulted and quoted on various topics related to firearms and ammunition and is considered an authority on such matters. He is a retired LEO, is a Life and Benefactor Member of the National Rifle Association, holds certification as a Pistol Instructor, Rifle Instructor, Shotgun Instructor, Personal Firearms Defense Instructor, and Home Firearms Safety Instructor. He has attended classes at Thunder Ranch and taken the Defensive Handgun I, Defensive Handgun II, Urban Rifle and Defensive Shotgun Class courses. Old_Painless is a respected contributor on several firearm related forums, so I am surprised (well, in your case, maybe not) that you don't know of him.
What are your qualifications, BTW?
I don't know what universe you are living in to state that #4 buck is "universally considered effective", because it is not. As I said, there is not a single LE organization that I am aware of that specifies #4 buck for personal defense. No, I'm not a "#1 buck fanboy", I just use what I, and most others who are knowledgeable and have ballistics experience, consider to be the best HD loads: 00 an 1B. There is enough real-world evidence and published data out there to substantiate that.
Foster slugs are about as decisive as I believe a shoulder-fired weapon can be, are more accurate than shot, and have less close-range penetration than 00.
People get worked up about the wrong things, though. Unless your home invader is a bear, any well-placed12 gauge load with .177 or larger shot should work fine, so long as you hit your target. So practice, dammit. And shoot until the threat ain't threatening.
John
People get worked up about the wrong things, though. Unless your home invader is a bear, any well-placed12 gauge load with .177 or larger shot should work fine, so long as you hit your target. So practice, dammit. And shoot until the threat ain't threatening.
John
rswartsell
Member
+1 JShirley
WOW, that is a great price. I just ordered 10 boxes. Not that I have any money, or that 50 rounds is a whole lot, but I couldn't pass that up.
Thanks for the link. Now I have LE132, PD132, LE127 in 00 and soon LE132 1B
Yes, Foster slugs just kind of go "splat" and widen quickly upon impact. They will do the trick. However, at HD distance, I prefer to to have nine .33 caliber wound channels (00) or fifteen .30 caliber wound channels (1B) vs the slug.
I disagree that any 12g load .177 or larger should work fine. Sorry, but that's BB, and bad advice, IMO.
wow6599
Member
000 3" mags.....
rswartsell
Member
NYSHOOTER, I see your point but catch a load of 12 ga. BB at 10-15' and tell us then. The mid range where you are not discussing a relatively monolithic shot column is where you become absolutely correct, say past 20' (not yards). The point of debate actually becomes at what distance home defense. If the shooter understands that the load is only qualified for very close last ditch action, I think the BB's would work fine (following JShirley's admonition for shot placement).
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rswartsell
Member
I suspect you will agree that if I shoot someone point blank (almost but not contact) with any 12 ga. load you will expect them to be incapacitated. A LOT of handgun practice for defense occurs at 7 yards (21 feet).
I wouldn't want to have a magazine full of BB and hope that it will be effective out to only 3-5 yds. One needs to assume that the bad guy (s) are also armed, so I want the most effective load in my gun to stop the threat as quickly as possible, out to 7-10 yds. Why would I want BB's in my gun at all, rather than a more effective load, last ditch action or not?
rswartsell
Member
It's not that I don't see your point, it's just that I want to support JShirleys as he makes a critical point that should not be lost.
kcshooter
Member
Because someone lives in an apartment.
They have a legitimate overpenetration concern. Therefore, for them, something less than 00 or #1 is a much more responsible option. As you yourself stated earlier, every pellet has a lawyer attached to it.
That's the biggest part of your problem. You can't imagine any scenario where anything but #1 should be used.
Why would I base my choice of ammunition on the assumption that the encounter will be "point blank (almost but not contact)"? And, even then, if I have a choice, why would my gun be loaded with BB's in the first place, rather than a more effective load?
rswartsell
Member
As kcshooter says, because in the given circumstance overpenetration could be a killer of innocents (just 1 psbl. reason). Once again JShirleys's point about proficiency with the weapon should be primary and correct choice of round secondary (and the most effective possible killer is not the only consideration). I believe this, this is my primary point.
As I said earlier: "Any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.
Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side".
rswartsell
Member
I'm simply not in agreement that the most devastating round you can find is appropriate in all circumstances, and you seem to be resistant to the weapons proficiency part, so we will agree to disagree sir with it stated at least that I can see your reasoning even if I do not agree fully.
kcshooter
Member
So you are saying that you believe that someone in an apartment complex should use 00 or #1 over anything else, regardless of the risk of overpenetration should a pellet or two (or more) not hit their mark?
Foolhardy advice, right there.
Your inability to see that different situations require different ammunition considerations is why your advice cannot be held as legitimate and valid.
Foolhardy advice, right there.
Your inability to see that different situations require different ammunition considerations is why your advice cannot be held as legitimate and valid.
If the round won't penetrate deep enough to stop an attacker, then I don't think you should use it. A tazer or pepper spray would be more appropriate, or possibly a melee weapon (like a bat or walking stick). So yes, if overpenetration through walls is that big of a concern, my advice would be to forego a gun entirely.
rswartsell
Member
Is everyone in the world completely immune to the fact that complex applications require applying each factor as a matter of degrees? If not 00 Buck then better with a baseball bat, really?
Hell skribs if you really think that the BB is worthless, then at least the 870 in your hands IS a baseball bat! For the love of mike!
Hell skribs if you really think that the BB is worthless, then at least the 870 in your hands IS a baseball bat! For the love of mike!
kcshooter
Member
A person lives in a smaller apartment and has decided not to use 00 or #1 buck in order to reduce the risk of penetration into a neighboring apartment.
So in a choice between BB shot or #4 buck vs a stick, you're going with the stick.
Interesting.
I would not make the same choice.
So in a choice between BB shot or #4 buck vs a stick, you're going with the stick.
Interesting.
I would not make the same choice.
rswartsell
Member
There is no if [/U ] to consideration of overpenetration in my mind skribs. People contemplate and prepare for the use of firearms as defense weapons. That's when they start threads like the one here. The application of the "four rules" does not include "unless my ass is at risk and it's not convenient for me to apply that rule now".
The people responsible enough to consider that factor before landing in the position of need deserve better answers that those that simply consider the application of maximum force.
Whenever you touch off a firearm, regardless of your diligent application of the "four rules" there is inherent risk. It is my thought that anyone in the gun community and especially those willing to arm for defense accept this along with the fact that we bear the responsibility to do everytning humanly possible to follow these rules to mitigate that risk so that someone capable of complex thought would consider their actions reasonable under the circumstances.
It's the end of the day and I am tired and perhaps less patient, but one of the things people in the "gun culture" learn as rookies is that there are a myriad of different tools (guns) for different applications and further another myriad of ammunition choices to load them with. This is for a reason, and those that simply always seek the most powerful or devastating, IMHO are evidencing inexperience.
I think this better be all for me tonight.
Regards to all and safe shooting.
The people responsible enough to consider that factor before landing in the position of need deserve better answers that those that simply consider the application of maximum force.
Whenever you touch off a firearm, regardless of your diligent application of the "four rules" there is inherent risk. It is my thought that anyone in the gun community and especially those willing to arm for defense accept this along with the fact that we bear the responsibility to do everytning humanly possible to follow these rules to mitigate that risk so that someone capable of complex thought would consider their actions reasonable under the circumstances.
It's the end of the day and I am tired and perhaps less patient, but one of the things people in the "gun culture" learn as rookies is that there are a myriad of different tools (guns) for different applications and further another myriad of ammunition choices to load them with. This is for a reason, and those that simply always seek the most powerful or devastating, IMHO are evidencing inexperience.
I think this better be all for me tonight.
Regards to all and safe shooting.
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rswartsell
Member
Fun is definitely available in shooting, NYSHOOTER. But is that what you think this thread is all about?
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