BB still doesn't offer the penetration necessary to reliably stop an attacker.
Loads for home defense?
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BB still doesn't offer the penetration necessary to reliably stop an attacker.
If we're answering a question about home defense, then appropriate defensive loads for the home are what we want. I honestly don't trust shot. Yes, I've used buckshot on deer, and I grew up as a small game hunter, so almost all of my shooting experience until around 20 was with shotguns.
Now, with a good bit of experience and with science-terminal ballistics- on my side, I know that the 12 gauge Foster slug penetrates less at close range than 00 buck, which overpenetrates. I also believe that a slug is the single shotgun load likely to stop an attacker the quickest.
I know my feelings about shot are a personal prejudice, despite being grounded in experience. I also know that, yes, we all want to wield the hammer of Thor, but in practical terms, professionals work on making accurate hits with whatever they're using, and trust in shot placement and good tactics. Amateurs look for minute differences in defensive ammunition instead of choosing ammo that's reliable and accurate and then just getting out and practicing.
I wouldn't use small shot under #2 if I had a choice. If defending an urban home, I would also avoid 00 and 000 buckshot, as well as hardened slugs including known sabot slugs. Other than that, make good choices, use good tactics, and practice. Your ideas about preferred loads may change with enough range time, but no tool wins any conflict. You win with your mind.
John
Now, with a good bit of experience and with science-terminal ballistics- on my side, I know that the 12 gauge Foster slug penetrates less at close range than 00 buck, which overpenetrates. I also believe that a slug is the single shotgun load likely to stop an attacker the quickest.
I know my feelings about shot are a personal prejudice, despite being grounded in experience. I also know that, yes, we all want to wield the hammer of Thor, but in practical terms, professionals work on making accurate hits with whatever they're using, and trust in shot placement and good tactics. Amateurs look for minute differences in defensive ammunition instead of choosing ammo that's reliable and accurate and then just getting out and practicing.
I wouldn't use small shot under #2 if I had a choice. If defending an urban home, I would also avoid 00 and 000 buckshot, as well as hardened slugs including known sabot slugs. Other than that, make good choices, use good tactics, and practice. Your ideas about preferred loads may change with enough range time, but no tool wins any conflict. You win with your mind.
John
#4 Buck would probably be OK in the summer, you're probably going to have 8 or 9 pellets penetrate to 14", another 6 or 7 penetrating to 13" and a bunch coming in between 10" and 12" in bare gel tests.
I don't know how the #4 Buck would do against a guy wearing a ski coat over a jeans jacket, sweater, shirt, undershirt...
The other thing though is that Federal doesn't make the FLITECONTROL in #4 Buck...
It's kind of worth going to #1 Buck just to get the FLITECONTROL
I don't know how the #4 Buck would do against a guy wearing a ski coat over a jeans jacket, sweater, shirt, undershirt...
The other thing though is that Federal doesn't make the FLITECONTROL in #4 Buck...
It's kind of worth going to #1 Buck just to get the FLITECONTROL
It's kind of worth going to #1 Buck just to get the FLITECONTROL
There are multiple flitecontrol 00 offerings and have been for years...from multiple manufacturers (Hornady licensed the flite control and calls it versa-tite, IIRC, and patterns very tightly as well)
That #1 with flitecontrol is quite new.
I read that article where it says #1 buck is the best, and wonder if things have changed all that much since it was written in 1998?
I don't think that things have changed. People have been saying #1 is the best, but manufacturers don't generally offer their tactical/defense/whatever loads in #1. It seems that Federal, at least, has finally caught up in this regard.
I'll pattern some of what I ordered as soon as I get it and post the picture(s) in here. I also have, have patterned, and could pattern again (all 00): Remington 8 pellet managed recoil, Federal LE127, LE132 and PD132, Hornady TAP 8 pellet lite mag w/versa tite wad, and Winchester Ranger 8 pellet low recoil (and plenty of other/less/standard offerings)
I'll pattern some of what I ordered as soon as I get it and post the picture(s) in here. I also have, have patterned, and could pattern again (all 00): Remington 8 pellet managed recoil, Federal LE127, LE132 and PD132, Hornady TAP 8 pellet lite mag w/versa tite wad, and Winchester Ranger 8 pellet low recoil (and plenty of other/less/standard offerings)
That article from 1998 made a lot of people believe #1 buck was the best choice, but if it doesn't pattern worth a darn in your gun it's not. Ya gotta test different loads in your shotgun. I have some #4 buck I got on clearance to try (not my first choice but worth testing) and I have some other loads I still want to test for myself. So far I like 5 pellet 000 in my .410s and most 8-9 pellet 00 buck in my 870, but the jury is still out. I'll try the cheapo 12 pellet buck in the 870 when I get some onhand, might be okay with the full choke or might just go everywhere, who knows until I test it? Pattern boards tell no tales.
Things certainly have changed. Generally speaking, I think shot shell technology has come a long way in the past several years, especially with the introduction of the FliteControl loads. While #1 buck was generally acknowledged to perform best ballistically, I was never able to find a #1 buck that patterned worth a damn, until LE132 1B.
At one time I had a Vang Comp barrel on an 870, in order to achieve tighter patterns. However, when I first started using LE132 00, about 3 1/2 years ago, I found that I was getting tighter patterns using LE132 00 through a standard barrel, than any other ammo through the Vang Comp. And, interestingly, I got worse patterns when shooting LE132 00 through the Vang Comp than through a standard barrel. FliteControl loads perform best through a CYL bore, although I get pretty good results through an I/C bore as well. In addition, I have found, as have others, that LE132 1B patterns just as well as LE132 00.
The only barrel modification that I have found that will even tighten-up FliteControl ammo is the King Armory KA-1212 Brake/Suppressor, which I had installed on a gun about six months ago. In addition to tighter patterns, it will also reduce recoil and flash. IMO, there is no downside to this device (other than it's cost, plus installation).
http://kingarmory.com/king-armory-products/shotgun-muzzlebrakes-flash-suppressors/
kingcheese
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I have a side by side, in the barrel with the tighter choke is 7.5 bird shot, in the other is buck 00, personaly i belive with the typical hd situation happening at 7 yards bird shot is just fine, your talking around the same amount of power at that distance with less chance of over penetration
You know, I think you're right. If at zero-dark-thirty my house is attacked by a flock of angry pheasants or if I find one of my children being mauled by a crazed woodpecker, birdshot would surely end the threat. And, especially in in preparation for multiple intruders, I also would prefer to use a SxS, rather than a 6+1 pump. :banghead:
I think the shotgun in general is so effective that a wide variety of ammo can be used in it and still stop an attack.
You don't have to be optimal with a shotgun blast, certainly you don't have to be perfect.
With handguns, we saw the 9mm Silvertip, a particular design in a particular caliber, pushed to center stage in the analysis of the 1986 Miami shootout. THe end result is that hundreds and hundreds of police departments eventually migrated to using the .40 S&W. Whether that was political theater, right, wrong, good, bad or whatever, my point is we saw an event that changed what kind of ammunition / caliber handgun was chosen by a lot of people.
I think two things mitigate against anything like that happening with shotgun ammo:
1) There has been a proliferation of 5.56 rifles and carbines in LEAs and a lot of what the shotgun platform used to do is now being done with 5.56
2) LEA and military generally use 00 Buck and they don't play around the edges of what's possibly ineffective against humans ie: birdshot, or #4 Buck and 00 Buck is effective enough that you probably will not see a catastrophic incident where a major LEA comes to the conclusion that using #1 Buck would have made a difference over 00 Buck.
One parallel I do see in this debate - when people make over penetration the priority and over riding concern - you can get into a situation where the projectiles simply do not penetrate deeply enough to disrupt vital tissue.
The Silvertip didn't "fail" in the 1986 Miami shootout, it performed as it was designed to perform. The 9mm caliber didn't fail in the Miami shootout - there were plenty of different bullet design at the time - including simple FMJ which, if it had been used would most likely have punctured Platt's heart and ended the conflict before he could have killed two FBI agents.
If law enforcement made over penetration their main concern with their shotgun platform, and started issuing birdshot to all their officers, could something similar happen ? I think it could, but I don't think LEAs will ever switch from 00 Buck.
00 Buck may not be optimal but it works, and unless there is some catastrophic failure with it - law enforecment will never move off that loading.
IMO, one has to be as perfect with a shotgun as with a a rifle because, at typical HD distance, a shotgun pattern is essentially about a 2" hole. Out past, say, 25 yds., the widening shot pattern is such that shot placement becomes even more critical, as one is responsible for all 9 pellets. And, there comes a point, depending upon one's experience with a particular shotgun and load, that switching to slugs is recommended.
kingcheese
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Nyshooter, i live next to an apartment complex, I'm worried more about over penetration, as far as a side by side, its more of a matter of its what i got, I'm not saying its the best choice, it is my choice
How much penetration (in attackers/ballstics gel/tissue) do you get out of that 7.5 birdshot?
The raw energy by itself isn't what a shotgun uses to damage tissue - it is the crush cavity from each pellet. If there are a lot of light pellets, they will fail to penetrate through muscle tissue and bone, resulting in a shallow hole that doesn't damage vital organs.
Think about it - if you want it to not penetrate through walls, how can you expect it to penetrate through your target? Your target, I might add, is harder to penetrate than a wall and is thicker than a few layers of drywall.
Think about it - if you want it to not penetrate through walls, how can you expect it to penetrate through your target? Your target, I might add, is harder to penetrate than a wall and is thicker than a few layers of drywall.
mljdeckard
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Not bird shot. I usually keep #4 ready.
sniperlongshot
Member
best defense did a great episode about home defence and penetrating layers of walls in your home, bird shot only had one pellet penetrate the 2nd layer of sheet rock in one wall,...........if you live in a mobile home and your family/kids are accross a 15' living room on the opposite side of the house, bird shot is a no brainer.....and hang some good solid stuff on the wall and a big screen tv is easier to replace than your family members
..........this is a bad question but it makes a point, have you ever shot a dog in the torso from 5 to 15 yards away with a mod. choke..........5 yards you make a 5" hollowed out cavity in it's chest, 15 yards you don't see a mark on them because of the fur, but they drop over dead, if i'm going to shoot in my house, bird shot is my only choice.
..........this is a bad question but it makes a point, have you ever shot a dog in the torso from 5 to 15 yards away with a mod. choke..........5 yards you make a 5" hollowed out cavity in it's chest, 15 yards you don't see a mark on them because of the fur, but they drop over dead, if i'm going to shoot in my house, bird shot is my only choice.
kcshooter
Member
Even if you are concerned about overpenetration, there's a lot of choices between 00 and skeet loads that would serve you better.
kingcheese
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Seriously, the raw pressure of bird shot at that distance would be enough to kill a man, and as early stated aim low, the stomach is surrounded by vitals and takes very little to penetrate, you don't have to destroy a organ if he ain't got blood in his body even then, head gives you eyes, upper body, neck armpits elbows, mid and lower stomach groin and knees, all of which are week
...are you being serious?
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