Local news story...what would be the best reaction to an approaching armed threat?

[ForumSurfer]

Short version:

1. Convicted felon driving a stolen car collides with innocent single father with children in the car.
2. Suspect gets out f the car and shoots the driver and his daughter with a 22.
3. Thankfully, everyone lives.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/9312403/

This being my hometown and all, made me think about this one very carefully. So let me set this up as best as possible to eliminate unknown variables. I have a solution that I think is best, but I'd like to hear from others...especially if my idea is not a good way to handle it.

So let's put our place in this guy's shoes and look at what we may see transpire and decide how we would react. I'll try to eliminate as many variables as possible. Here are the facts:

1. You are driving along with a child beside you, a child behind you and no significant other. You have a semi auto on your hip with 10+ rounds of your favorite caliber. You have your spare mag on your weak side.
2. Someone just hit you from behind and your electronically nanny-fied car has shut down everything to prevent a fire. You aren't going anywhere.
3. A quick glance reveals your kids aren't bleeding or in life threatening shape. A quick glance in the mirror and you see a man walking hastily from the car that hit you, looking angry and he has a firearm in hand, so you are already behind the 8 ball and outdrawn.
4. You tell your kids to get in the floor and stay there NOW. It is 6 lane road with a turning lane. If you tell them to run, they may not stop to look for traffic.

That's where I want to know what others think would be the best course of action. I saw 3 scenarios.

1. Draw as you open the door, one leg out of the door and firing from a modified kneeling position with your weapon close to the doorjamb so there is as little as possible of a target presented. Pros: You're firing from partial concealment with less target presented. I've practiced firing from positions like this. Cons: It may be hard to get a good, firm stance from here. When presented with a situation this stressful, your two kids will want to run to safety. Safety is perceived by your kids as being close to you and they don't have far to go. This puts him shooting at you while you and your kids are in partial concealment...strong possibility for them to get hit. We don't know for sure he has a 22...we just see a gun and assume it's a 357 and it'll shoot through the car easily and retain deadly force.
2. Draw as you are opening and exiting so that you have a shot on him as soon as possible. Continue moving away from the car to draw his fire away from the car and your kids. Pros: He fires towards me, not my kids. I've practiced drawing and firing while moving laterally. Cons: There's a possibility that you both empty your mags and you are both still standing. Now you have put the threat between yourself and your children.
3. This is the solution I feel is best. Draw while exiting, trying every way possible to have your target acquired before that 2nd foot hits the ground. Then fire center of mass until empty while advancing on the target. Pros: I run drills when I practice where I advance on the target from 20-15 yards to point blank. I know that while advancing, I can get all 15 rounds very rapidly into a 6" circle or less while practicing. I'd hope I could do the same here. My chances of getting good, solid hits increase as I get closer. Even if he gets me center of mass, my adrenaline may keep me going long enough to put enough rounds in him to stop him before I collapse or bleed out. Hopefully his fire is drawn more towards me, lessening the chance of his rounds entering my car. Cons: His chances of getting good, solid hit increase as I advance.​

I've run this through my head a few times and I view it as an all or nothing moment. He's presenting forceful and deadly force from the onset. My only hope in my eyes is to present as much or more force and utilize what little training I've had. Option 3 seems to be my best bet to stop the threat and keep my kids safe. What do you guys think? Is my line of thinking wrong given the scenario? Is there a better option?

 

[bobby68]

Suggest yell lowdly "are you OK" WHILE drawing hoping to keep badguy from perceiving you as aware of his threat and that you are a hard target as long as possible. It seems many expect soft target and end up losing because of poor assumption.

Should count on your kids NOT responding well shock of accident is enough, let alone advancing armed threat.

 

[ForumSurfer]

Suggest yell lowdly "are you OK" WHILE drawing hoping to keep badguy from perceiving you as aware of his threat and that you are a hard target as long as possible. It seems many expect soft target and end up losing because of poor assumption.

Doesn't seem like a good response to me. When approaching from behind, he won't see you draw. That's the same reason troopers get nervous walking up on a car. He has a weapon in hand and advancing on you. You're still sitting there. You're still a "soft target."

IMO, if you want to present yourself as a "hard target" you will need to make it clear that you will present a deadly force. That can't be done while sitting in the car IMO.

Like I said though, in my eyes he's demonstrating a clear and present threat on my life and my family's lives. I see no reason to not fire at this point. He has a gun and he is advancing. His force has to be met with greater force for me to come out on top.

 

[chevyman097]

While I always keep the mindset that we dont know how things will happen until they do, I agree it is good to be ready.

Reading the OP and replies I starting thinking of my own scenarios.

I will keep the same mindset in saying the best place for children would be in the floor with as many obeject between them and the badguy.

As for response to the threat. Some thing along the lines of drawing weapon while staying in the car but with open access to fire (door open or window down) if need be. While yelling and making it very clear you are armed and will use deadly force to protect the children and self. Maybe this would deter the attack or force bad guy into wanting to take cover, giving you a chance to then act.

Thoughts?

And maybe someone can put that into better words for me. Im not so good at this stuff.

 

[ForumSurfer]

As for response to the threat. Some thing along the lines of drawing weapon while staying in the car but with open access to fire (door open or window down) if need be. While yelling and making it very clear you are armed and will use deadly force to protect the children and self. Maybe this would deter the attack or force bad guy into wanting to take cover, giving you a chance to then act.

I'm not good at this stuff, either.

I do know that I am not a big guy. I'm 5'10" and 175lbs. I'm fairly limber, but my body doesn't rotate 180 degrees. The guy is at my 5 o'clock and approaching. Turning around in my seat without leaving the car isn't an option. Both legs don't fit under the steering wheel at the same time. It would be faster to exit or at least partially exit than to wiggle around to a firing position.

He hit my car, that means he is less than 20 feet from me. It seems to me that I wouldn't have time to react with a verbal threat and await a response to determine my next action. By the time I say "Stop or I'll shoot," he's walked between 5 & 8 more feet. Don't believe me? Start walking quickly as the felon in the story was doing. Now, when you pass a point say "stop or I'll shoot" slowly enough that he would understand you. I did it, and I traveled between 3 and 7 paces depending on how I said it.

The suspect started out 20 or so feet behind you. He has already drawn. Now his distance is cut in half and he still has a better firing position than you do. As a matter of fact, if we draw and hold tight while we shout threats, we're still not even facing the target.

He's already out of the car and inside of 15 yards, weapon drawn. I just don't see any option except to put the muzzle end in his direction. I'm ok with arguing that we hold fire from that point, although I'm not %100 sure we should. But this threat is close, if we are going to react and wait for his reaction...then I feel you should put yourself in a firing position as there won't be anytime to maneuver after you shout and order and await a response from a rapidly advancing threat. I mean, it just doesn't take long to walk from your car to the car in front of you when you are walking quickly. We're talking less than 10-20 seconds. I haven't ran drills, but exiting while drawing is going to take several seconds....I don't feel that there is enough time to shout threats, await response and then react. Like I said, it seems to me that my response needs to be muzzle on target.

 

[chevyman097]

Good info, thanks for the read. Got me thinking.

 

[smalls]

I agree that there is absolutely no room for threats or waiting in this situation. This is a "point and shoot NOW" situation, with of course keeping everyone in the most concealment possible. I can certainly tell you that because he put my child in danger, there would be no "draw, then wait to see what happens". I would have an empty magazine very quickly.

 

[B yond]

I like number two. I'd do what I can to keep him focused on me and not my children. I have no problem or hesitation deciding to take a bullet or ten to protect my kids. Hopefully I'd kill him before he kills me. I probably practice more.

 

[txhoghunter]

Considering he just rear ended you, there is VERY little space for you to exit your vehicle. I would try to open the door and fire immediately, even if I don't have a solid stance. If you wait to have a solid stance, you will most likely already be shot and will have therefore left your kids unprotected.

Drawing fire away from the car is one thing if you have the space to do so, however, I don't see that as much of a possibility in this case.

Once I see a man approaching with a gun, unless he is saying something identifying himself as a police officer, he has given up his right to a warning. From there on, its shoot or be shot. No ifs, ands, or buts.

 

[ForumSurfer]

After reading txhoghunter's post, the more I think about it option 2 is bad. We're inside of 15 yards and option 2 could place the suspect between myself and my car, leaving my kids on the other side of my target. That's bad mojo! Good intention but not enough space to execute.

 

[txhoghunter]

We're inside of 15 yards and option 2 could place the suspect between myself and my car, leaving my kids on the other side of my target

Exactly what I was trying to say, I just couldn't figure out how to word it....you know how physics tests mess with the thinking process...

Option 2 would be great if there is just more distance b/w yourself and the threat, but when fighting will be that close, I see firing as exiting the vehicle being the only good option.

 

[Storz]

Read that on the news the other day as well, horrible situation and luckily everyone survived. I think your option 3 is probably the best for the reasons you pointed.

 

[ForumSurfer]

Well, tex since you are the physics expert...given the distance of 15 yards, the average hustled pace of a human bein 6 miles per hour and exiting the vehicle at a right angle...you should be able to calculate exactly how many seconds I have before my line of fire crosses within 15 degrees of my original position, thereby potentially shooting my offspring.

 

[Comedian]

At first I considered option 2 in order to draw the perp's attention away from the car, but I suspect that unless I manage to neutralize the threat as I leave the car he's going to end up using my car and, by extension of that, my kid as cover from my incoming fire. So for me it's either option 1 or option 3, either way I can't bring myself to say that abandoning the car is a good idea seeing as it's occupant is my primary concern. I don't want to stay in the car because if the bad guy starts shooting randomly into the car he might hit my kid. So if I had to choose I'd probably go with 3. Odds are the threat doesn't anticipate my being armed and if I can exit the car with gun drawn (pretty easy for me since I carry appendix and the seat belt isn't a huge obstacle) I figure I've got a decent chance of being the first one to put lead on target. I do a lot of rapid fire practice and, as of last weekend, I can do a mag dump from my USPc .40 at about 15-20 yards and keep all the shots on a torso sized target without a whole lot of effort.

 

[Jon_Snow]

No one else sees a problem here with the shoot first ask questions later approach? :banghead:

You've just been in a car accident. Through your mirror you see the other guy coming towards you. You THINK you see a gun in his hand but maybe it's a cell phone. He looks angry, maybe it has something to do with the fact that he's angry at himself for driving his insurance rates up or potnetially injuring someone else. He's heading towards you car quickly because he wants to make sure you're ok. Given the information you have there is NO justification for shooting first. If you do, you're most likely shooting an innocent man. What happened in the news is tragic, but it is incredilby rare. Draw, get out of your car and issue a verbal warning. IF he raises a weapon, THEN you can start firing.

 

[txhoghunter]

A quick glance reveals your kids aren't bleeding or in life threatening shape. A quick glance in the mirror and you see a man walking hastily from the car that hit you, looking angry and he has a firearm in hand, so you are already behind the 8 ball and outdrawn.

No one else sees a problem here with the shoot first ask questions later approach?

Here it says that you have identified a firearm. That being the case, if a family member's life or my own hang in the balance, yes, I will shoot without being shot at first.

The problem being, that if he raises the gun to shoot as you are exiting the vehicle, he WILL get the first shot if your muzzle is not already pointed in his direction

No one in their right mind without malicious intent will exit their vehicle after an accident and approach another driver gun-in-hand.

 

[forgetitohio]

"Jones, 21, of 2515 Cattail Circle, ran to the sedan, pulled out a .22-caliber revolver and fired, striking Kelly three times and the 7-year-old girl four times,"

"ran to the sedan"

IMO I don't think anybody would have a chance to do much. The only thing you'd hit him with is your car door trying to exit or get shot in the back trying to exit the passenger side.
Putting yourself between the kids and the shooter is the only option. But even trying that you might not be fast enough being he "ran to the sedan". Protecting the kids is the #1/ONLY thing.

I know I'd take a shot( however many it took) so my Daughter has a chance to grow up. BUT I might not be fast enough to have a chance in this EXACT situation.
The report didn't say the shooter {wasted time} looking for his wooden leg while trying to find his gun that was locked in his trunk as he removed his seatbelt. He RAN to the car and started shooting.

Some people try to change the situation into something it's not.

 

[ForumSurfer]

No one else sees a problem here with the shoot first ask questions later approach?...You THINK you see a gun in his hand but maybe it's a cell phone.

I stated that you identified a weapon. I know a handgun when I see one. If you don't see a threat or are unsure, by all means stay in your car and lock the doors. But I'm trying to eliminate variables so I stated that you identified a handgun.

Given the information you have there is NO justification for shooting first.

He has a handgun, in hand and he is advancing. If that isn't a threat, I don't know what is. Wait until he raises the weapon and fires if you wish...but the situation has escalated beyond words IMHO. Drawing and putting the muzzle on the target speaks volumes...no warning needed. Take 3 seconds to speak a warning that he may not hear and it is too late to draw. Draw and shout to the heavens and wait for him to point the weapon and/or fire if you wish.

Draw, get out of your car and issue a verbal warning. IF he raises a weapon, THEN you can start firing.

Again, think about the distances. The wreck has him well inside of fifteen yards, he's already advancing on you and the average human walks quickly at 6 miles per hour (8.8 feet per second). By the time I draw, step out and issue a warning or command...he's within 5 or less FEET. There just doesn't seem to be time to issue a command. I see a threat on my life and my family's life.

What happened in the news is tragic, but it is incredibly rare.

All self defense cases involving a handgun are rare and potentially tragic.

 

[ForumSurfer]

IMO I don't think anybody would have a chance to do much...He RAN to the car and started shooting.

Agreed. I don't think there is time to do anything. By the time he jumps out, weapon drawn and runs toward you...your mind doesn't have enough time to process and react. IF you committed to jumping out and firing AND you got good hits...the distances involved mean he would likely be almost muzzle to chest by the time you squeezed the trigger.

Some people try to change the situation into something it's not.

No one is trying to change anything. What happened, well it happened. I just want to know what would be the best course of action IMO and others' opinions if confronted with a similar situation. That's what S&T is all about. What's the best course of action? Simple premise...armed threat, advancing from my 5 o'clock and I'm in trouble. Obviously it is a plausible situation, because it happened. If I created an unrealistic situation or a scenario where we get shot no matter what...well we can just close it and move on. Planning tactics and possible scenarios seems to be a very important part of self defense IMO. How will we know how to react if we don't ponder how we MAY react and practice drills/scenarios?

 

[forgetitohio]

ForumSufer
Do you shot in USPSA or idpa? There are scenarios just like that.
Sitting in a car/chair; playing poker with a threat behind; barricade shooting; strong/weak hand stages helps also.
You can download some of the matches/stages on YouTube.
You can pratice in your own home/car if you like.
When I'm active in USPSA I pratice drawing for a hr. a day. Who knows? I might shot myself in the foot in a REAL fight.
But as you know nobody is going to know how to react in a non-controled situation.

 

[ForumSurfer]

Do you shot in USPSA or idpa?

No I don't...but I've looked into locations near me. It looks like fun. I just recently in the past year or two started taking defensive shooting seriously. Prior to that I had always just stood stationary and shot stationary targets. Competitions look to be pretty fun and time well spent.

 

[Jon_Snow]

I stated that you identified a weapon. I know a handgun when I see one. If you don't see a threat or are unsure, by all means stay in your car and lock the doors. But I'm trying to eliminate variables so I stated that you identified a handgun.

I understand that you said you identified the handgun. I'm saying that given the real world circumstances involved, you ability to identify the handgun is goign to be greatly reduced. I'd like to think I can recognize a gun pretty well too, but a glance through a mirror after getting rear-ended is hardly an ideal situation. It would be very easy to make a mistake. You won't have time to get a good look and be sure.

Imagine this for a second. Have a friend punch you in the back of the head, then hold up a picture for a split second of a gun with a dark object in his hand. Could you tell me with certainty that this object is a gun?

 

[ForumSurfer]

Imagine this for a second. Have a friend punch you in the back of the head, then hold up a picture for a split second of a gun with a dark object in his hand. Could you tell me with certainty that this object is a gun?

Yep.

I've been in more than one wreck. The worst one was flying off the front of a motorcycle after a Cadillac veered into me head on. I never lost consciousness and I remember everything quite vividly. A simple rear end collision that leaves one party able to jump out of his car with a gun sprinting isn't going to knock me out...particularly if I'm loose and not braced for impact.

I'm trying my best to make this as real world as possible. Maybe I should have replaced "glanced in the mirror" with "looking out the back window."

Regardless, my point was that there is no doubt..you SEE a weapon and you have seconds to react...what do you do? He has the upper hand and there is arguable seconds to spare...what is the best course of action?

In the real incident mentioned...you get shot. The guy was running and committed to fire. In all likelihood, nobody could have reacted fast enough unless you watched him get out of the car with the gun and committed at that instant.

 

[JohnBiltz]

Assuming I'm thinking straight, because I once was rear ended pretty hard and it took a few seconds before not only myself but others in the car were thinking straight, that one totaled the car.

First I'm not moving away from the car. The car has not only my kids but a couple of magazines as well. I keep two magazines in eyeglass cases in the driver's side door. The more I think about it the less likely I think it is you would even have time to move away.

In every accident I’ve been in my first reaction is to get out of the car and I’m probably going to do this before I realize there is a threat and I’ve always looked back at the car that hit me as I exited. Figure two seconds to make an assessment and draw as a minimum. He is probably very close unless the accident has slowed him down as well. Chances are most likely considering time that its going to be up close and personal and tactics are not going to matter much and its who hits who the most often and hardest.

 

[Jon_Snow]

Fair enough, I just wanted to make the point that identifying a threat in a situation like this is extemely difficult. If you are sure he's got a gun, then by all mean, fire away. Like others have said, the safety of your family comes first.