Make 7.62x25 brass from .223 brass.

[Twmaster]

I own a CZ52 chambered in 7.62x25 Tokarev. I absolutely love the thing. It's a terrific pistol.

One problem I've had is getting reloadable brass. Most surplus ammo is Berdan primed and steel jacketed. This makes it near impossible for me to reload and I cannot shoot steel jacketed ammo at the range I frequent.

Modern factory ammo is spendy and few shops stock it.

I've heard mention here amongst those who shoot and reload 7.62 Tokarev guns that one could convert .223 brass.

Anyhow, a buddy of mine has a book on cartridge conversions. He mentioned there was a page for making 7.62x25 out of .223 Remington. I got a scan of the page. It's not hard to do. You need some .223 brass, a set of dies and a way to trim the cases.

Let's get started!

Take a .223 case:





Cut to a bit more than 1" long: (I used a tubing cutter)





Run this through your sizing die:



Next, Trim the case to length (.988" is max length) prime then expand the mouth, seat the bullet to length.

This is a Remington case. Some military brass like from Lake City may have to have the inside of the case mouth thinned a bit. This Remington worked with no more than trimming and sizing.

I ran the loaded round back through my resizing die with the decapping pin removed. My CZ52 is kinda picky about case width at the mouth.



Here are three rounds, Converted .223, Surplus Romanian and a reloaded Prvi case: (L to R)



The converted case chambers and ejects just fine. I'll hopefully have a range report this weekend.

This was not hard to do. I do not have a lot of money so being able to trade my available time to rework free brass is good in my book.

Hope this is of some use to fellow 7.62x25 shooters.

 

[243winxb]

And you didnt buy dies for $235 @ http://www.huntingtons.com/dies_caseform.html How is Huntington going to stay in business.

 

[243winxb]

Maximum neck diameter of a loaded round is .334" at steve's pages. What does your neck measure?

 

[Twmaster]

Maximum neck diameter of a loaded round is .334" at steve's pages. What does your neck measure?

.327" is my OD neck diameter after running through the sizing die after loading.

Myself and member Hondo60 both have had problems with some reloaded ammo. We both find that .330 neck sized loads will not 'drop in' to our barrels.

EDIT: As I mentioned in the original post some of the military brass needs to be reamed out at the mouth. I can see the difference in thickness with my bare eyeballs.

 

[243winxb]

No annealing needed? Nice looking rounds.

 

[Duckdog]

I have to thin the necks down with some of the cast bullets I use. I have a forester trimmer and a neck reamer and it really rocks. If I dont ream the necks about 1/4 of them wont work and will not chamber right.

I have plenty of starline brass, but this is just funner to mess with!

 

[mgmorden]

I've done this in the past. Had a ton of spent .223 range pickup brass and needed brass to load for the CZ-52, so I didnt about the same thing.

Only negative is that the .223 brass isn't QUITE the same diameter going down. .223 uses a slightly different shellholder than 7.62x25 Tok so you'll want to use that, but my main issue was that the brass would bulge a bit when fired. Nothing too significant, and I reloaded them again, but it isn't quite a perfect match. It always shot fine in my CZ-52 though.

I actually loaded mine up with 110gr .30 carbine bullets which are significantly cheaper than the lighter ones made specifically for 7.62 Tok. With that bullet grain I used Accurate Arms #9 powder and it worked great. Off the top of my head I THINK I was using an 11.0gr charge, but don't trust that - I don't have my notes handy at the moment. I know that the Speer Reloading manual has data for this round with the 110gr bullets.

NOTE: I also bought a second FL sizing die with the decapper removed to "crimp" the round - a lot of my reloads wouldn't chamber before this, and the problem was even more evident with the cut down .223. Lee now has a 7.62x25 factory crimp die available though which would probably perform this task better. I'm going to try and get one of those before I start loading for this round again (I got ahold of quite a few boxes of yellow Norinco ammo for cheap and have been shooting those rather than reloading).

 

[highlander 5]

Would'nt be easier to buy brass? Starline makes 7.62x25/30 Mauser. Granted you'd have to by a minimum of 500. But at the rate you'll be losing brass 500 should do. Plus as someone said earlier the rim on .223 brass is .375-.378 dia and if my memory serves me correctly the Mauser rim is .390 dia and that may cause extraction problems.

 

[the count]

Would'nt be easier to buy brass?

Free is the enemy of easier
223 is really easy to get free of charge. Like the OP said, he is on a budget so kudos to him.

 

[colt1911fan]

Thats awesome I was holding out on buying a tokorav or a CZ52 because the surplus ammo disappeared but I think Im gonna buy one now

 

[Hondo 60]

Actually I don't have a CZ, I have a Yugoslavian made Zastava M57.
But, ya, it's a Tokarev & the issue is it will not reliably chamber reloaded rounds.
The chamber neck is undersized.

So I bought an extra Tokarev die body from Lee for $12.

Station 1. Deprime & resize
Station 2. Charge
Station 3. Seat Bullet & Crimp
Station 4. Resize again with decapping pin removed.

Works like a charm.

Last time I had it out, I put like 5 magazines through it w/o a hiccup.

I've also made some Tokarev brass from .223 as well.
I just cut mine with a hacksaw as I don't have a pipe cutter.

 

[Twmaster]

Doh!

Sorry Hondo, I thought you had CZ....

Mea-dopa!

 

[Twmaster]

Only negative is that the .223 brass isn't QUITE the same diameter going down. .223 uses a slightly different shellholder than 7.62x25 Tok so you'll want to use that, but my main issue was that the brass would bulge a bit when fired. Nothing too significant, and I reloaded them again, but it isn't quite a perfect match. It always shot fine in my CZ-52 though.

Yea I found that out last evening when I loaded 10 more converted cases. The #4 Lee shell holder works great.

I actually loaded mine up with 110gr .30 carbine bullets which are significantly cheaper than the lighter ones made specifically for 7.62 Tok. With that bullet grain I used Accurate Arms #9 powder and it worked great. Off the top of my head I THINK I was using an 11.0gr charge, but don't trust that - I don't have my notes handy at the moment. I know that the Speer Reloading manual has data for this round with the 110gr bullets.

The reloading data included with the dies mentions a similar load for 110 grain bullets. What carbine bullets were you using? Berry's has plated FMJs at not too hateful a price. I'd like to find hard cast. Providing the listed loads are not too hot for hard cast.

NOTE: I also bought a second FL sizing die with the decapper removed to "crimp" the round - a lot of my reloads wouldn't chamber before this, and the problem was even more evident with the cut down .223. Lee now has a 7.62x25 factory crimp die available though which would probably perform this task better. I'm going to try and get one of those before I start loading for this round again (I got ahold of quite a few boxes of yellow Norinco ammo for cheap and have been shooting those rather than reloading).

I had to wait until I could find a deal (trade actually) on this Lee die set. Being 'under-employed' sucks butt. I decap all my brass with a universal decapper die before cleaning so I just leave the decapper pin out on the Tokarev sizing die.

I just looked in my current Lee catalog and dang, they -do- have an FCD for this round.

 

[Twmaster]

And I am pleased as punch to report the dozen converted cases I loaded for testing performed like factory ammo.

No failures to feed, fire or eject. Accuracy was better than the surplus ammo I've been shooting.

I. Am. Pleased.

 

[Roadkill]

Thanks for the info, will try it out tomorrow.

 

[Hondo 60]

Twmaster:

Berry's 30 cal plated rifle bullets work very well.

Here's a link to the ones I use...

http://www.berrysmfg.com/product-i14669-c34-g8-b0-p0-.30_Carbine_.308_110gr_RN.aspx

That Tokarev FCD doesn't work for me.
I bought it, & so far it's been a waste of money.
It crimps just the very top edge of the neck, but doesn't touch the rest of it.

 

[Twmaster]

Thanks Hondo.

I've been looking at those Berry's bullets. At a hair less than 9 cents each (in Quan. 1K) that's not bad considering the Sierra bullets I just loaded were ~22 cents each after tax. But I can walk into a local gun shop and buy them off the shelf.

I'm like you. Not well off. Saving up $109 to buy bullets is not easy. Not at all.

I've been thinking about casting my own. Lee has a 113 grain .308 mold.

I'll scratch the FCD off my list then and just get another sizing die body.

I don't know if this helps...

last night I found a video on YouTube about how to convert .223 brass to Tokarev. It pretty much is the same procedure I used. The one thing he does and I have not is to use a Letter M drill bit to ream the inside of the neck.

That might help you. I'm going to get a bit at the local industrial supply joint and give it a go. I'll, of course, report the results.

 

[NuJudge]

I had trouble doing it the way you do

I had trouble if I cut off the .223 neck & shoulder, producing a straight case, then ran it into the Tokarev die. The cases typically buckled. If I left the the .223 neck & shoulder on, pulled the expand/decap spindle out of my die, and ran the case into my Tokarev die, it worked just fine. My trimming was more difficult.

 

[Twmaster]

What kind of brass are you using? (Commercial or military)

Are you using lube?

My Lee resizing die has a decapper but not an expander ball.

Might also need to anneal the cases.

 

[7even6ix2wo]

Do they just use small pistol primers?

 

[Hondo 60]

Twmaster:
Brass so far has been PMC & PPU - civilian 223
Yes to the lube
I don't know enough about annealing, so I just don't.


7even6ix2wo - yes, just regular small pistol primers.
I suppose you could use magnum primers - just work it up & go slow.

 

[Twmaster]

Heh. Hondo, my question was aimed at NuJudge since he was having issues. However, more data points are a good thing.

And yes, 7even6ix2wo, small pistol primers JustWork[tm].

 

[Hondo 60]

I'm reviving this thread because I was still having some issues with the reloaded ammo not wanting to seat properly.

I was getting quite a few where I had to push on the butt end of the slide to get it to go into battery.

I did 2 things that seem to have helped.

1. I emailed back & forth with Peter in CS at Lee.

He said:
when you install
the sizing die in your press hold the press handle down with one hand
while turning the die in with the other hand until the die makes firm
contact with the shell holder. Then lower the ram and turn the die into
the press one more full turn and tighten the locking ring. I want you to
go one full turn past contact rather than 1/4 turn to ensure you have
removed all the clearances from the press linkage. Make sure that the
shell holder makes firm contact with the die when you size a case.

2. The other thing was to caliper a number of factory ammo cases.
The OAL was about .965 - according to Lyman's 49th the trim to length is .980.
So the factory cases were 15 thousands shorter.
I cut some short just to try it.
I ran a box of 50 thru my M57 the other day, & so far it seems to be working OK.

I hope this helps someone.

 

[Twmaster]

Hondo,

Thank you for the update. I too found most of the surplus ammo I have to be .965 to.970 in length.

 

[mcofboise]

Hondo, that's some good info, thanks for sharing. I don't Tok, but I have a Bolo Broomhandle Mauser that I like to listen to occasionally. I don't want to shoot up the few boxes of as-classic-as-the-gun .30 Mauser ammo I have for it, nor will I shoot Tok ammo through it... I believe the warnings against that and don't want to turn my C96 into a 4th of July celebration. So, with the help of another THR member, I've been easing down that road of forming cases from .223, reforming some existing conversions I'd acquired and pulling components from questionable reloaded sources. I haven't formed a case in over 20 years, so the resurrection of this thread is particularly encouraging. I think my biggest surprise was that the extractors still function reliably on these smaller caseheads, but that was the case (pun intended) as I happily determined. I'd backburnered this project for a while, but I see it's time to pick it back up again, if for no other reason than to clear those components off my bench.