336A said:
Ok first off no disrespect here but I'm throwing out the B.S. flag and here is why. I've had the pleasaure of instructing Avanced Rifle Marksmanship, SRM and SRB over the course of 3 1/2 years. We had our students shoot at 400 yards for familiarization with aimpoints on a 200yd NRA style high power target using issued M855. The groups were huge with more than half of their 10 rounds falling outside of the standard 20" wide E-type shilouette. The Aimpoint dot subtends 12" (at 400yd) then factor in the wind drift (18.1"), bullet drop (-22.6") when zeroed for 200 yards and shooter error I doubt it. That is unless you have a tricked out 16" carbine and shooting heavier match grade ammo of course, which leads me to ask COM of what...? a boulder.
As much as I hate to hijack, the BS flag was thrown regarding something that I personally witnessed, so I guess I better chime in!
I was an instructor at the Appleseed marskmanship clinic at Oklahoma City Gun Club last March where Bratch shot Expert on the full distance Army Qualification Test. We use an older version of the AQT that goes out to 400 yards, and uses "D" silhouettes, which are 20" wide head-and-shoulder targets. Stage 4 consists of 10 rounds fired at a 400 yard target from prone unsupported.
bratch was shooting a 16" barreled AR (a Noveske if I remember right) with an Aimpoint Comp M4 and a 3x magnifier. His 10-shot group on stage 4 was right around 2 MOA, or 8 inches. A very impressive display of marksmanship.
Now he was using the Comp M4, which has a 2 MOA dot, unlike the M68 CCO's that your soldiers were probably using, which have a 4 MOA dot. Being that a man-sized target is only 5 MOA wide at 400 yards, a 4 MOA dot is pretty hard to use with a center hold, as you mentioned, whereas a 2 MOA dot is just fine. bratch was also using a magnifier, which helped I'm sure, but I think the main thing is that he has taken a lot of firearms training of all different types, and has VERY strong fundamentals... which I think mattered a lot more than any specific equipment he was using.
Incidentally, when Appleseed trained one Army unit, we had a very similar experience to you with the soldiers who had CCO's. Their groups really opened up from 400m on out, while the guys with the ACOGs were keeping them in the black much better.
However, our guys found some techniques that helped, which you might want to keep in mind next time you're teaching long distance shooting to guys with CCO's... one would be to turn down the brightness of the dot to the lowest setting where you can still see it. This eliminates bloom. Also, some of the soldiers had success using a 6 o'clock hold with the dot, like you would with irons. Others did well by just turning off their dot and using their backup irons.
From what bratch is saying, when he shot that 400 yard group, he apparently was using his 300m BSZ setting, and he just figured out how high he needed to hold to get a hit. This technique might minimize the impact of dot size, though you would only have to hold about 3 MOA high, or 1 foot at 400 yards, which is basically aiming for the head instead of center mass... putting the center of a 4 MOA dot on a target's head might still be tough.
Oh well, we Riflemen adapt, improvise, and overcome!
Now back to the original topic.
I can envision some situations in which you would need to take shots at 400 yards and farther. They would be situations in which you are not worried about answering to the civil authority for your actions, such as a total breakdown of the civil authority, or perhaps a Second Amendment-type situation in which you are actually fighting elements of the civil authority. Admittedly these are unlikely scenarios, but to me, the point of owning a battle rifle, and the main point of the right to bear arms in general, is to prepare for situations that, while unlikely, would involve an outcome so terrible that they are worth taking some precautions against.
I agree that the AR would be the better choice for the OP's requirements. You know, with soft points, hollow points, or lightweight personal defense rounds, a .223 doesn't penetrate as badly as some pistol rounds do. The accuracy, max effective range, capacity, and rate of fire would all be superior to a .357 carbine, and at close range, the 5.56 round is actually quite destructive to a human target.
