Mauser vs Enfield...Which Military Surplus Rifle

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You paint with too broad a brush. A Finnish M39, made by Sako, Valmet, Tikka, or with an FN "B" barrel, is every bit the rifle that any Enfield or Mauser can be...
Respectfully, I must disagree. The failings of the Mosin-Nagant are mostly ergonomic, not ones of strength, durability, or accuracy, and the Finns weren't able to cure those anymore than anyone else was. The action might be slicker, and the sights might be better, but it's still a Mosin-Nagant, with a bolt handle that's too far forward and a very un-ergonomic safety that's difficult to use, and can't be engaged or disengaged without breaking your grip and taking the rifle off your shoulder.

And just to be strictly accurate, the Finns didn't quite make those rifles, they rebuilt them. The Finns never made a single M-N receiver. All their rifles were built on receivers made in Russia or elsewhere. But I agree, their rifles were a big improvement over the Russian ones.
 
They didn't make receivers, but they did make barrels and they did manufacture the rifle. Otherwise, most AR companies don't actually manufacture rifles.

A man who can't use a Mosin safety doesn't know how. I can use one without breaking the cheek weld, and can do so more quietly than a Mauser (but Enfields are pretty quiet). It requires only the tips of your fingers.

And ergonomics are blown way out of proportion when it comes to the bolt handle. They are no more difficult to manipulate than a straight-bolt Mauser (having owned both kinds, I can attest to that). Besides, ergonomics - that of stock fit and ease of use with sights - are far more important, and an M39 shoulders as well as any Mauser, better than many, and as well as any Enfield.

Remember, Finnish Mosins drove out German Mausers in the Lapland War, forcing them to retreat to Norway.
 
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A man who can't use a Mosin safety doesn't know how. I can use one without breaking the cheek weld, and can do so more quietly than a Mauser (but Enfields are pretty quiet). It requires only the tips of your fingers.
Most of the ones I've handled, the springs in them are too heavy for that.

And ergonomics are blown way out of proportion when it comes to the bolt handle. They are no more difficult to manipulate than a straight-bolt Mauser (having owned both kinds, I can attest to that).
So the Mosin-Nagant bolt handle is no worse than the straight bolt handle that everyone else, including the Germans, had abandoned after the end of World War One. You're making my point for me. Right to the end, the M-N kept an ergonomic feature that had been superseded pretty much everywhere else.

Remember, Finnish Mosins drove out German Mausers in the Lapland War, forcing them to retreat to Norway.
I suspect that tactics, generalship, logistics, numbers, artillery support, etc. etc. were all far, far more decisive factors.
 
The Mauser was not so superior as to have provided the Germans any kind of advantage over the Finns. By the way, they were, at the time of the Lapland War, being forced to draw down significant portions of their armed forces whilst forcing the Germans to retreat to Norway as a result of their loss to the Soviet Union in the Continuation War.

In any case, as to the safety, you simply don't know how to operate it, no offense intended. Those who fielded them knew how to use them. It isn't hard at all, requiring only fingertips and the muscles of the forearm to operate. I should know, as at my height I owned more than 40 Mosins.

As to bolt handles, you seem to forget that the Japanese didn't field turn-down bolts in WWII. Regardless, the bolt handle has nothing at all to do with firing a shot down range. And Finns seemed perfectly capable of sending accurate fire upon the Germans with their Mosins (as well as the Soviets).

The OP should stick to Mausers or Enfields, which ever he likes. However, the Finnish Mosin remains an outstanding arm with accuracy requirements that were on par or better than any other bolt action arm used in WWII.

M39's have excellent triggers, superb sights, very ergonomic stocks, and are very accurate shooters.

M28/76's are even better.

SAKO, Valmet, and Tikka all got their start manufacturing Mosins - and they made some superb rifles. And Mosins, as military actions, outlasted true Mauser M98's, with nations who know guns, the Finns and the Czechs, adopting Mosin-based snipers into the 1980's and 90's with the TKIV-85 and VZ54/91 respectively.
 
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If I understand the OP, it was Mauser vs Enfield.

Mauser G98 8mm by a landslide.

The Mosin-Nagant is more powerful, but if we go this route, let's talk about .30-'06............
 
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For the price of a Mauser or an Enfield you can probably shop
around a little and buy a used sporter in 30/06 or some other common
U.S. caliber.

Zeke
 
My point is that in posting #1, the OP clearly states he is talking about different Mauser calibers, but mostly 8mm. Also, the other caliber is .303 British re: Enfield. A passing reference is made to the M1917, which is in 30-'06.

If I misread the OP, I apologize.
 
Since it seems you are basically wanting a nice shooting piece of history....Enfield. Far and away the best oif the ww2 bolt actions IMHO. The no4 has spectacular sights too


Im not a huge k31 fan...odd LOP and meh sights and ive never picked up a Mauser I had to have. Mosins are fantastic for what they are but they are not anywhere near as refined as an enfield
 
Compare a 1942 SAKO M39 or a 1942 Tikka M91 to a 1942 Fazakerly #4. The Finns manufactured their rifles to a very high standard while under invasion. No stove paint, no sloppy stamping.

Of course, one could easily throw a 1943 Izhevsk 91/30 and do the exact opposite, as those rifles had roughly-machined receivers (the internals were still smooth).

The point is you cannot simply make such a broad statement. I can pull up Mosin actions that are vastly more refined than Enfields - actions that performed in very harsh conditions under dire wartime pressure and still maintained a high degree of accuracy.
 
The Mauser was not so superior as to have provided the Germans any kind of advantage over the Finns. By the way, they were, at the time of the Lapland War, being forced to draw down significant portions of their armed forces whilst forcing the Germans to retreat to Norway as a result of their loss to the Soviet Union in the Continuation War.
This is, frankly, silly. Wars are almost never decided by what small arms the individual infantryman carries. The vast majority of killing on the battlefield is done by artillery. After that, machine guns and other crew served weapons are the most casualty producing weapons. Infantrymen fire thousands of rounds of ammo for every enemy soldier killed. Even rifles that are a whole generation ahead don't provide that much advantage. American soldiers had semiauto Garand rifles while the Germans were still using bolt action rifles with five round magazines, and the Germans still beat the boots off us at Kasserine Pass, turned Operation Market Garden into a defeat for the Allies, and slowed Allied progress in the Italian Campaign and in the Hurtgen Forest, despite massive Allied superiority and total Allied air supremacy. After the war, the US army itself estimated that the German army, man for man and unit for unit, was 20 to 30 percent more effective than were the British and American forces they faced, and this despite the fact that the Americans were definitely armed with a superior rifle, and the British arguably so (the Lee-Enfield had double the ammo capacity and a slightly faster rate of fire).

You are attaching far, far too much importance to what rifle was carried by whom. The Finns did NOT drive out the Germans because they had Mosin-Nagants and the Germans had Mausers. That was actually a pretty insignificant factor in the outcome of that engagement. In another theater, the Mauser-armed Germans monkey stomped the Mosin-Nagant-armed Russians early in the war, and then later in the war, the Russians turned the tables. But it wasn't because they suddenly acquired better infantry rifles. That's not what decides things in war. All things being equal, armies want their troops to have the best rifles they can, but again, it's mostly other weapons, and factors like logistics, numbers, leadership, air supremacy, artillery support, etc. that really decides things.

In any case, as to the safety, you simply don't know how to operate it, no offense intended. Those who fielded them knew how to use them. It isn't hard at all, requiring only fingertips and the muscles of the forearm to operate. I should know, as at my height I owned more than 40 Mosins.
I know how to operate it just fine, thanks very much. It's still and awkward and hard to use safety, and greatly inferior to the ones on the Mauser or the Enfield. The only ones who managed to field a more awkward safety on their bolt guns were the Japanese.

As to bolt handles, you seem to forget that the Japanese didn't field turn-down bolts in WWII. Regardless, the bolt handle has nothing at all to do with firing a shot down range. And Finns seemed perfectly capable of sending accurate fire upon the Germans with their Mosins (as well as the Soviets).
The Japanese also fielded some of the crappiest firearms of any army during the war. Only the Italians had it as bad or worse. Their machine guns needed cartridge oilers to function reliably, and some of their pistols (e.g. the Type 94) could be fired by simply by grasping the slide a certain way, without one's finger ever being near the trigger. Japanese generals actually considered the quality of their weapons to be, not unimportant, but not nearly the most important factor -- they thought their troops' martial spirit of Bushido vastly more important (and look how that worked out for them in the end). If they, with their collection of unprepossessing infantry weapons, held onto the straight bolt handle, it's not a ringing endorsement.

A straight bolt handle has nothing to do with firing a shot downrange. It has everything to do with how fast you can fire follow up shots down range however, and remember, in war, fire superiority -- the ability to put more lead in the air than your enemy can -- counts for far more than pure accuracy.

The OP should stick to Mausers or Enfields, which ever he likes. However, the Finnish Mosin remains an outstanding arm with accuracy requirements that were on par or better than any other bolt action arm used in WWII.

M39's have excellent triggers, superb sights, very ergonomic stocks, and are very accurate shooters.
None of which I have contested in the slightest. And I'd still vastly prefer a Lee-Enfield if I were going to carry a bolt gun into combat. After that, I'd take the Mauser.

M28/76's are even better.

SAKO, Valmet, and Tikka all got their start manufacturing Mosins - and they made some superb rifles. And Mosins, as military actions, outlasted true Mauser M98's, with nations who know guns, the Finns and the Czechs, adopting Mosin-based snipers into the 1980's and 90's with the TKIV-85 and VZ54/91 respectively.
And the British were using Lee-Enfield sniper rifles just as long. Even with its rear locking lugs, it was a very accurate gun, and in fact the No. 4 sniper rifle is widely considered the best sniper rifle of the war. Only the Marine Sniper M1903 might rival it overall.
 
Japanese with the crappiest firearms? Yeah, many of their tanks and small arms were crap. The Arisaka was not. It was stronger than any Enfield, Mauser, or Mosin. And it used a straight bolt handle.

As to the Finns and German arms, of course the small arm was much less significant. Logistics are vastly more important than simple guns on the ground. Tactical application of small arms, armor, artillery, air power, and the logistics to supply them must be taken as an organic whole, not individual pieces. You can't dismiss a foxhole with infantry, but there are far more elements that go into a successful campaign than merely the small arm.

But therein lies the point I am making. You make a mountain out of a mole-hill when it comes to the Mauser's vaunted superiority, yet in any real or significant analysis, it's all a wash. Mosins, Mausers, and Enfields are equally effective and Mosin examples can easily be better than Mauser or Enfield examples. We can cherry pick and choose all day long and the knot in the tug-of-war will scarcely change.

In other words, the Mosin stacks up just fine with a Mauser, and some Mosins are in every way as effective as any Mauser. The Enfield's only true superiority lies in its magazine (not detachable, as soldiers were not issued a pile of them) but in its 10 rounds, which required half as many reloads but, more importantly, allowed 10 rounds to be fired before ceasing firing to reload.

As to safeties, no, you don't know how to use it if you say it's hard and cumbersome. Indeed, it's quiet and virtually impossible to be bumped on or off in combat. It's simple to use. It does take more work than simply flicking a lever, but only the Enfield allows you to operate the safety without breaking your grip. Both the Mauser and Mosin require breaking the grip. The French didn't even bother to install a safety until after WWII.

Having owned examples of Carcanos, Enfields, Arisakas, Mausers, Mannlichers, and Mosins, all the actions are fundamentally equal in a military arm.

Were I to go to battle in WWII, though, I'd carry a Garand.
 
Japanese with the crappiest firearms? Yeah, many of their tanks and small arms were crap. The Arisaka was not. It was stronger than any Enfield, Mauser, or Mosin. And it used a straight bolt handle.
It was also an old-style, long rifle that European armies abandoned after WWI, in addition to the straight bolt handle. It was outdated. Yes, it had a stronger receiver. So what? Other nations rifles weren't blowing up. Would you really rather have an Arisaka than a Springfield, Mauser, or Enfield to take into battle? And yes, other Japanese firearms were crappy guns. The Type 94 pistol was a monstrosity, and unsafe to boot. The Type 96 and Type 99 machine guns needed lubricated ammo, with all the problems that brings. The Japanese utterly failed to field a submachine gun in any significant numbers, despite the obvious suitability of such a weapon for the island and jungle fighting they engaged in. If a military with such an antiquated and spotty collection of small arms held onto the straight bolt handle, as I said, that's not a ringing endorsement.

But therein lies the point I am making. You make a mountain out of a mole-hill when it comes to the Mauser's vaunted superiority, yet in any real or significant analysis, it's all a wash. Mosins, Mausers, and Enfields are equally effective and Mosin examples can easily be better than Mauser or Enfield examples. We can cherry pick and choose all day long and the knot in the tug-of-war will scarcely change.
I'm not making a mountain out of a molehill. The Russians obviously beat the Germans in the end, even though they used what was overall not as good a rifle. It was solid, accurate, reliable, and economical. That was enough. As the Russian firearms expert Maxim Popenker stated: "Overall, this was somewhat typical example of the Russian mass produced weapon - cheap, simple, reliable and adequate for intended mission - but that's all."

In other words, the Mosin stacks up just fine with a Mauser, and some Mosins are in every way as effective as any Mauser. The Enfield's only true superiority lies in its magazine (not detachable, as soldiers were not issued a pile of them) but in its 10 rounds, which required half as many reloads but, more importantly, allowed 10 rounds to be fired before ceasing firing to reload.
No, the Enfield also has a shorter action (thanks to the rear locking lugs) and a shorter bolt turn (60 degrees as opposed to 90 for the Mauser or M-N), which combine with the 10 round magazine to give it a greater rate of fire than any other bolt action.

As I said, rifles are far from the most significant factor in an army's ability to win victories on the battlefield. Nevertheless, some rifles are better and more user friendly than others, and I repeat, the American and British soldiers of the 1918 Allied expedition to Russia, most of whom were not gun nuts, and for whom these rifles were just tools were in no doubt as to which rifle they preferred, and it wasn't the Mosin-Nagant.

As to safeties, no, you don't know how to use it if you say it's hard and cumbersome.
I do know how to use it, and it's still cumbersome. I'm a big believer in ergonomics. When an enemy suddenly appears in front of you as you round the corner of a building or a trench, or you walk into an ambush, and your fine motor skills go to hell, a rifle whose safety comes off with an effortless flick of a thumb lever is vastly to be preferred.
 
Obviously from the comments above, there is only one answer--get as many of them as you can afford. :)

You can still get shooter grade rifles with worn finishes and guns that need some cosmetic such as reversing sporterization or minor mechanical fixes that can still be quite reasonable in price. I am a shooter and NOT a collector but your priorities may be different. Collecting prime examples of these rifles now involves a much more significant outlay of cash but the appreciation in price will be steeper. Shooter grade, on the other hand, you can take to the range or field and not worry that much about hurting its future value. Even shooter grade weapon prices do go up over time, just not as much or as fast.

Starting with either a Mauser or Enfield will obviously make you want to get the other rifle the next time etc. I started with an Mk 4 No. 1 WWII era Maltby Enfield that had been lightly sporterized and it rolled downhill from there. After restoring it to its roots, then I began collecting bolt actions of WWI and WWII era--in some cases rebarreling, fixing broken stocks, etc.

It is a fun hobby, you learn a lot about history, woodworking, methods of manufacturing rifles, weapons cleaning, and how to separate serviceable versus non-serviceable weapons, and it will give you some insight into what challenges that each weapon posed to its users in war and peace.

Then of course, you have to feed the beasties which means reloading in many cases as the ammo can be somewhat hard to get--but the situation is much better than a few years ago thanks to Grafs and Prvi Partisan for making many of these forgotten calibers available again.

Good luck with your shopping.
 
Billy, you make my point - we can compare rifles of different genres all day long. With the US and British soldiers in the Arkhangelsk expedition, they used the M91 but preferred what they were used to. However, those soldiers weren't really engaged in combat and the M91's fault lay not in its quality (they were Remington-made rifles) or assembly but in the fact that they were much longer and more cumbersome in everyday operations. Who wouldn't want a shorter rifle? In addition, the Not Made Here preference is solidly at play.

These same men abandoned Garands so that they could use M1 Carbines a generation later.

However, take a good Mosin action, like the M39, and perceived advantages of contemporary rifles drop away.

Speed of operating the bolt in the Enfield provides hardly an advantage in combat - the mad minute and records pale in comparison to being supported by a machine gun. Other factors are far more important. The 10 round magazine provides a far greater advantage over contemporaries that the perceived speed of manipulating the action.

And we get back round the circle I first brought up that the Mosin's "ergonomics are poor, and it's not nearly as nice a gun to shoot." Compare said Enfield or Springfield to an M39 and things change quite a bit. Ergonomics are not poor and shooting a Mosin all day is no different than shooting an SMLE or Springfield or Mauser.
 
Couldn't hit the proverbial side of a barn with the Enfield.

I'll hazard a guess that you were shooting boat-tails through a 2 groove barrel... switch to a flat based bullet and you'll have much better results.
 
Billy, you make my point - we can compare rifles of different genres all day long. With the US and British soldiers in the Arkhangelsk expedition, they used the M91 but preferred what they were used to. However, those soldiers weren't really engaged in combat and the M91's fault lay not in its quality (they were Remington-made rifles) or assembly but in the fact that they were much longer and more cumbersome in everyday operations.
And with a clumsier bolt, and a clumsier safety, and zeroed with the bayonet on, so they didn't shoot to point of aim with it off, etc. etc.

Who wouldn't want a shorter rifle? In addition, the Not Made Here preference is solidly at play.
That is an assumption.

These same men abandoned Garands so that they could use M1 Carbines a generation later.
What? A) Those same men were mostly too old to fight a generation later, and stayed home; it was their sons, mostly, who went to fight in WWII. And B), that's simply not entirely true at all; for every soldier who loved the light weight and handiness of the M1 carbine, there was another who was totally underwhelmed by its stopping power, and preferred a full size rifle.

However, take a good Mosin action, like the M39, and perceived advantages of contemporary rifles drop away.

Speed of operating the bolt in the Enfield provides hardly an advantage in combat - the mad minute and records pale in comparison to being supported by a machine gun. Other factors are far more important. The 10 round magazine provides a far greater advantage over contemporaries that the perceived speed of manipulating the action.
It's not perceived speed when it really is faster, that's actual speed. And sure the advantage is slight. So what? It's still there, and all things being equal, wouldn't you prefer every advantage you could get in combat? That's why the Enfield adds up to a better combat rifle overall. Almost no sporting rifles today trace their descent from it (or the Mosin either, come to that), because the Mauser's particular system, and its inherent advantages, are better suited to a hunting or target rifle. But as a combat rifle for the rank and file, the Lee-Enfield is considered by many to have been the best bolt action rifle every fielded by any military, and I'm inclined to agree completely.

And we get back round the circle I first brought up that the Mosin's "ergonomics are poor, and it's not nearly as nice a gun to shoot." Compare said Enfield or Springfield to an M39 and things change quite a bit. Ergonomics are not poor and shooting a Mosin all day is no different than shooting an SMLE or Springfield or Mauser. And we get back round the circle I first brought up that the Mosin's "ergonomics are poor, and it's not nearly as nice a gun to shoot." Compare said Enfield or Springfield to an M39 and things change quite a bit. Ergonomics are not poor and shooting a Mosin all day is no different than shooting an SMLE or Springfield or Mauser.
The ergonomics are poor. Not terrible, just not all that good either. Shooting it on the range all day may not be different; shooting it in combat... Again, I want a rifle with better ergos -- pistol grip stock (which I know some M-N's had, yes, but most didn't); better, easier to use safety; better sights; handier length, etc.

I'm not arguing that the Mosin-Nagant is a bad rifle. It's not. It did hero's work during WWII. If I had to carry one into battle, I'd hardly feel sorry for myself. But people praise them to the skies more than they deserve. I'm convinced this is because right now, they are cheap, and so is their ammo, and this makes them a screaming bargain for shooters who like bolt action milsurps. People love bargains, and they love to think the buys they made were great ones and show off what discerning customers they are, and they talk up the Mosin a lot as a result. You get a lot of gun for a small price, and it's inexpensive to shoot besides. But the same was once true of Mausers and Lee-Enfields. The supplies dried up eventually, and now they're not so cheap anymore. One day that will happen with the Mosin-Nagant as well. When it does, and it's price becomes comparable to that of a Mauser or Lee-Enfield, I don't think you'll see as high a percentage of advocates for the M-N. Judged solely on its merits, it's just not as nice a gun to shoot as the more refined, more ergonomic British and German rifles are.
 
Men willingly pay $450 for an M39, more for 28/76, 28/30, and others. Finnish Mosins are already at parity compared with K98k's and Enfields. Already. I'm not talking Russian refurbs.

Compare an M39 to an equal date #4 and the M39 will be more refined with better fit and finish compared to the stove-pipe finish and sloppy markings. Ironcially the #4 will have a spike bayonet whilst the 39 a blade. The sights on the 39 will not be as good as a fully adjustable #4, but will be better than the two-position flip sight.

As to the M1 Garand vs Carbine, men in WWII regularly adopted the Carbine for combat - the stories are legion. Carry size can be a siren's call, one that makes a soldier forget about combat effectiveness.
 
M1 Garand vs M1 Carbine

Both of the above are excellent weapons, and each has been lauded for their unique qualities, understandably so. Their followers are often prone to readily extoll the virtues of their particular choice.
I knew a Korean War Vet that emptied a 30 rd. banana clip (mag) from an M1 Carbine into one of the enemy, who fell dead at his feet. From then on he carried an M1 Garand until the end of the war.
I like 'em both, ahhhh......but I've strayed from the OP in post #1.:)
 
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Welcome to the High Road. I'm fortunate to own all on your list and it would be hard to go wrong with any of them. In states with magazine capacity limits for hunting, the Enfield could be a problem, but they are excellent rifles. My favorite is the 6.5 Swede, very accurate and quality is a bit above the others. If you come across a Swiss Schmidt- Rubin, although a bit different with its straight pull bolt, probably the most accurate Milsurp you will ever come across. I love all these old War Horses. Best solution is take your time and get 1 of each!
 
It was also an old-style, long rifle that European armies abandoned after WWI, in addition to the straight bolt handle. It was outdated. Yes, it had a stronger receiver. So what? Other nations rifles weren't blowing up. Would you really rather have an Arisaka than a Springfield, Mauser, or Enfield to take into battle? And yes, other Japanese firearms were crappy guns. The Type 94 pistol was a monstrosity, and unsafe to boot. The Type 96 and Type 99 machine guns needed lubricated ammo, with all the problems that brings. The Japanese utterly failed to field a submachine gun in any significant numbers, despite the obvious suitability of such a weapon for the island and jungle fighting they engaged in. If a military with such an antiquated and spotty collection of small arms held onto the straight bolt handle, as I said, that's not a ringing endorsement.


I'm not making a mountain out of a molehill. The Russians obviously beat the Germans in the end, even though they used what was overall not as good a rifle. It was solid, accurate, reliable, and economical. That was enough. As the Russian firearms expert Maxim Popenker stated: "Overall, this was somewhat typical example of the Russian mass produced weapon - cheap, simple, reliable and adequate for intended mission - but that's all."


No, the Enfield also has a shorter action (thanks to the rear locking lugs) and a shorter bolt turn (60 degrees as opposed to 90 for the Mauser or M-N), which combine with the 10 round magazine to give it a greater rate of fire than any other bolt action.

As I said, rifles are far from the most significant factor in an army's ability to win victories on the battlefield. Nevertheless, some rifles are better and more user friendly than others, and I repeat, the American and British soldiers of the 1918 Allied expedition to Russia, most of whom were not gun nuts, and for whom these rifles were just tools were in no doubt as to which rifle they preferred, and it wasn't the Mosin-Nagant.


I do know how to use it, and it's still cumbersome. I'm a big believer in ergonomics. When an enemy suddenly appears in front of you as you round the corner of a building or a trench, or you walk into an ambush, and your fine motor skills go to hell, a rifle whose safety comes off with an effortless flick of a thumb lever is vastly to be preferred.
American soldiers carried US made contract M-N on that 1918 expedition to Russia so as to be able to use locally available ammo if needed. I believe they were called the model 1917.
 
I have 3 turk mausers and they all shoot good enough for me to hunt with them out to 300yds. They are the 8x57. Given the choice I

would choose the 8mm m

auser over the Enfield for a couple prime reasons and not because I thinks one is better than the other. 1- 8x57 ammo is more available (I reload my own) 2- I'm not familiar with the Enfield at all. I go with what I know. The turk mausers I have have 27in barrels on them. Makes me feel a little more comfortable,but that's how I roll. They were also cheaper but in real good condition with real good rifling.
 
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