May 1 - Illegal Immigrant Protest

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"Divide and Conquer." It's about as basic as military strategy gets. It is also about as predictably effective as military strategies get. "Win the hearts and minds of the people, and, . . ." a basic lesson every kid who was fortunate enough to attend school in this country back when The Revolutionary War was still taught in history class and the names Washington and Cornwallis were associated with something other than the acronym DWEMs--Dead White English Males--learned and understood (sorry about the grammar and syntax, but I am all but seething right now).

The point is, our country and especially our kids' hearts and minds are under attack 24/7/365. In the case of the "1776 American Revolution," the ranks of the losing side (among which were my ancestors) suffered defeat due in no small part to their failure to realize the consequences of NOT fighting for the hearts and minds of the population at large. Mao repeatedly used this same strategy in setting up the PRC to periodically "purge itself" [sic] of the "malcontents" [double sic]--teachers, historians, free thinkers--who stood in the way when it was time to take the occasional "great leap." Corrupt the minds of the kiddies and they will gladly destroy the institutions for which their parents stand. From there on, it’s a piece of cake. Hitler Jugend anyone?

Sesame Street has been softly shoving Spanish down our kids throats for decades. The Taco Bell brand makes zillions for PepsiCo every quarter. Look at your kids' clothes; listen to their music; pay attention to their language and speech patterns; question their values and core beliefs--they do have values and core beliefs, right? The division is as subtle as it is insidious.

I just started reading Unholy Alliance: Radical Islam and the American Left by David Horowitz.

Chilling. Absolutely chilling.

Believe me, this is not simply a matter of "undocumented Mexican" immigrants [sic]." This is about the carefully orchestrated war on American values, traditions, and culture that is being waged from the inside.

I am so PO-d by what is going on the campuses that I'm trying to find a way to yank my kids out of college and home school 'em. ( :what: Dang! Now that's BAD! )

Seriously, follow the money. The people running this thing are directly tied to if not the very same individuals themselves who were involved in the Marxist BS that's been festering in Central and South America for decades. More troubling, Al Queda is VERY active in the "tri-border region" of South America, where Argentina, Brazil. and Paraguay meet. Terrorism experts refer to it as the "Hilton of Islamic Extremism" for good reason. Factor in Castro and his understudy/heir-apparent Chavez, the drug cartels, MS-13, and "the-man-who-would-be Santa-Anna," and the picture becomes both clear and frightening. (Check out chapters 8 and 9 in Paul Williams' book
The Al Qaeda Connection)

Are the American people so uninformed/misinformed that they do not see this for what it is? Are we as a nation so damned busy and self-absorbed that we can't feel the shifting of the fundamental fabric of American society? Just what is it going to take to make us WAKE UP?

To quote the venerable 'possum: "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo

MiG
 
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Are the American people so uninformed/misinformed that they do not see this for what it is? Are we as a nation so damned busy and self-absorbed with ourselves that we can't feel the shifting of the fundamental fabric of American society?
Click to expand...
Yes.
 
I'm sure, if you finish reading the quote you snipped, you'll see the part about speaking to the manager. He'll be able to tell you if they're illegal or not. That part was in subtext. But, I'm sure you got that.
:rolleyes: Aliteracy: one of America's other problems.
 
Why that's not what you said..

You said to tell the manager you're leaving because it looks like he's hiring illegal people... maybe you should have said "Ask the manager if he hire's illegals, if you says yes, then you should leave"

There are a lot of good hard working legal Hispanic people and citizens in a place like San Diego. It would be absolutely impossible to look at someone and determine their citizenship status.
Maybe things are different in NC.

Racism: Another one of America's problems.
 
A very good point, and one that gets overlooked. There are a TON of illegals around here from asia, Europe and Latin America who don't "look" like the stereotypical Mexican migrant. But they're just as illegal.

Never forget, the illegals who did the most damage to us were all from our "friends and allies" in the Middle East. Nice, clean-cut young gentlemen who were very polite until they started cutting heads off and diving jets into buildings.
 
wait, relax, the L.A. Times says chill out, no problema

Guest-Worker Proposal Has Wide Support
Most of those surveyed also favor stricter border enforcement and a pathway to citizenship for immigrants already in the U.S. illegally.
By Mark Z. Barabak, Times Staff Writer
April 30, 2006

Californians generally favor a carrot-and-stick approach to illegal immigration, mixing tougher border enforcement with a guest-worker program and a pathway to citizenship for those already in the United States, according to a new Los Angeles Times poll.

By a ratio of more than 3 to 1, those surveyed said they preferred a comprehensive approach to the immigration issue, which President Bush and a bipartisan group of U.S. senators advocate, rather than the more punitive legislation passed by the House of Representatives. Lawmakers on Capitol Hill have spent months trying to reconcile those conflicting proposals.

Support for a broader approach to illegal immigration was shared by Californians of all political persuasions and throughout the state, regardless of where they lived. Overall, there was little difference of opinion between Latinos and whites, although Latinos were somewhat more supportive of a guest-worker program and more strongly opposed to building a fence proposed along the U.S.-Mexico border to curb illegal entry.

In general, Californians in the Times poll were marginally more supportive of a two-track approach to immigration than were Americans as a whole in a separate Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg poll.

But Californians also viewed illegal immigration as a bigger problem than most Americans, with 42% of the state's residents considering it one of the biggest problems facing the country, compared with 31% of those surveyed nationally.

And the concern of Californians has risen, at least as the issue affects their home state. In an open-ended question in which they were asked to identify the most important problem facing the state, 34% named illegal immigration. That compared with 13% who gave that response in a statewide survey last October, before congressional action and mass demonstrations across the country vaulted the immigration issue to heightened attention.

"It's a serious problem," poll participant Greg Hoshabekian, 53, said in a follow-up interview. Hoshabekian, a semi-retired law enforcement officer who lives in Apple Valley, said he has no confidence that politicians will find a solution. "I'll start learning Spanish, I guess."

The Times poll, which found most California voters to be unhappy with Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's overall performance, also turned up poor marks for his handling of the immigration issue. The governor last year praised the freelance patrol of the border launched by the Minuteman Militia. But more recently he has condemned talk in Congress of a border fence — calling it a return to "the Stone Ages" — and advocated incentives as well as tough enforcement to address the nation's illegal immigration problem.

Overall, 49% of voters disapproved of Schwarzenegger's handling of the issue, while 28% approved. Nearly six in 10 Latinos disapproved of the governor's performance on immigration, compared with fewer than five in 10 whites.

The Times Poll, under the supervision of director Susan Pinkus, interviewed 1,863 Californians from April 21 through April 27. The margin of sampling error was plus or minus 2 percentage points.

The national Times/Bloomberg poll on immigration issues was conducted April 8-11 and had a margin of error of 3 percentage points.

A guest-worker proposal giving temporary visas to noncitizens who want to work in the U.S. drew strong support from Californians, with 64% of those surveyed backing the proposal and 19% opposed. Three in four Latinos favored the guest-worker plan — which is the centerpiece of the Senate immigration plan backed by Bush — compared with six in 10 whites.

"They're decent human beings," said 50-year-old Deborah Dise of San Francisco, a backer of the guest-worker plan. "They're working. They're not using up the welfare system. They should be given a chance to become citizens."

Another Senate proposal, establishing a pathway to citizenship for illegal immigrants who step forward, pay a fine and learn English, was even more popular, drawing support from more than seven in 10 Californians. Fifteen percent were opposed.

Two of the provisions in the tougher House legislation fared less well. Just 32% of Californians supported a proposal that would both build a border fence and classify illegal immigrants as felons, compared with 55% who were opposed.

However, the proposal drew a sharp split along ethnic lines: more than seven in 10 Latinos were opposed, compared with nearly five in 10 whites. Although 39% of whites were in favor, 20% of Latinos voiced support.

After hearing all the alternatives, 70% of Californians said Congress should combine tougher border enforcement with a guest-worker program, compared with 22% who favored a strictly get-tough approach.

Those sentiments compared with 63% of Americans who said lawmakers should take a comprehensive approach and 30% who said Congress should focus solely on toughening enforcement of border control laws.

Greg Potnick, a 53-year-old retired police officer in Sacramento, was one of the latter.

"I think we need to secure our borders before we look at any program that rewards illegal behavior," he said.

As for how the country would deport the estimated 12 million immigrants here illegally, he said: "You start one at a time."

*

(INFOBOX BELOW)

How tough?

Which approach to illegal immigration do you prefer?

Only tougher enforcement of immigration laws

California: 22%

Nation: 30%

-

Enforcement and guest-worker program*

California: 70%

Nation: 63%

-

*Would allow undocumented workers to work legally in the U.S. on temporary visas.

-

Note: "Don't know" responses not shown.

Source: L.A. Times polls

---

Immigration issues in California

Compared to other problems facing the country, how big a problem is illegal immigration?

One of the most important

California: 42%

Nation: 31%

*

Important, but not most

California: 40%

Nation: 53%

*

Not all that important

California: 11%

Nation: 10%

*

Not important at all

California: 5%

Nation: 4%

Do you support or oppose the following proposals:

1. Create a guest-worker program that would give temporary visas to noncitizens who want to work legally in the United States. The program would provide a path to permanent resident status if certain requirements were met.

California Nation
Support strongly 34% 28%
Support somewhat 30 26
Oppose somewhat 6 8
Oppose strongly 13 13
Don't know 18 25


*

2. Allow undocumented immigrants who have been living and working in the United States for a number of years, and who do not have criminal records, to start on a path to citizenship by registering that they are in the country, paying a fine, getting fingerprinted and learning English, among other requirements.

California Nation
Support strongly 43% 37%
Support somewhat 29 29
Oppose somewhat 6 6
Oppose strongly 9 12
Don't know 13 16


*

3. Fence off hundreds of miles of the border between the United States and Mexico and toughen immigration laws by making it a felony to be in the United States illegally.

Support strongly

California: 21%

Nation: 29%

*

Support somewhat

California: 11%

Nation: 13%

*

Oppose somewhat

California: 13%

Nation: 15%

*

Oppose strongly

California: 42%

Nation: 20%

*

Don't know

California: 14%

Nation: 23%

Note: All results are among adults. National results are from the L.A. Times/Bloomberg poll of 1,357 adults with a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points, conducted April 8-11. All questions are summarized. Some results may not add to 100% when some answer categories are not shown.

*

For full exact wording of questions along with poll results and analysis, go to: http://www.latimes.com/timespoll

*

How the poll was conducted: The Times Poll contacted 1,863 adults in California by telephone April 21-27. Telephone numbers were randomly selected from a list of all exchanges in the state, allowing contact with both listed and unlisted numbers. Multiple attempts were made to contact each number. Additional Latino residents were contacted in a separate random sample to allow more accurate analysis of that subgroup. The entire sample was weighted slightly to conform with census proportions for sex, ethnicity, age, education, region and the secretary of state's report of party registration. The margin of sampling error is plus or minus 2 percentage points. For certain other subgroups, the margin of error may be somewhat higher. Poll results may also be affected by such factors as wording of the questions and the order in which questions are presented. Although voters of all racial and ethnic groups were interviewed and are included as part of the overall results, some may constitute too small a subgroup of the sample to be separately reported. Interviews in all samples were conducted in English and Spanish.
 
My problem with polls is that they contribute nothing to problem-solving. They're certainly the best argument one could wish for against the idea of Internet instant-voting, and they certainly illustrate why a republic is better than a democracy.

Art
 
Actually this is a good thing

1. No one will notice they are not there.
2. They will not be in the way at the local store, acting like I should not be in their way.
3. I will not have to put up with the illegals driving like they are the only one's on the road.
4. They will all be on one spot, so let's bust them all and send them back home to Mexico, then contract the Russians to build us a wall like they had in Berlin.:fire:

one more thing Stolen from else where
The Mexican Government uses its vast military and
police forces to keep its citizens intimidated and
compliant. They never protest at their White House
or government offices but do protest daily in front
of the United States Embassy. The US embassy looks
like a strongly reinforced fortress and during most
protests the Mexican Military surround the block
with their men standing shoulder to shoulder in full
riot gear to protect the Embassy. These protests are
never shown on US or Mexican TV. There is a large
public park across the street where they do their
protesting. Anything can cause a protest such as
proposed law changes in California or Texas.
Click to expand...
 
4. They will all be on one spot, so let's bust them all and send them back home to Mexico, then contract the Russians to build us a wall like they had in Berlin.
Click to expand...

My friend, the irony of that is "the wall" began as a line painted on the street. Before that, the soldiers. Then came the paint. Then came the wire. Then came the bricks and mortar. Then came the rest--especially the mythology. In the end, I would say the real wall built itself.

What made it "work" was not the concrete (no pun intended): physical barriers of wire, concrete, steel, dogs, Kalashnikov's, tanks, etc.

No no.

It was the abstract: FEAR. :uhoh:

There is nothing like the presence of armed DDR and Warsaw Pact (CCCP) troops, "rumors" of mines and informants, the coincidentally "discovered" tunnel, and the random unsuccessful "attempt to escape" to instill a righteous sense of intimidation and foreboding.

The best weapon we could employ in our border battle is the same one used to such great effect by the communists: a population on BOTH sides of the wall that harbors no doubt whatsoever that any perceived "rewards" that might lie on the other side of the line are in no way commensurate with the reality of the all-pervasive and certain horrors that exist up close and personal on "our side" of the wall . . . should we attempt to cross that well-defined line.

I should know this; I was there.

MiG
 
I am a legal immigrant to this country. I have my "green card" and served four years in the United States Marine Corps. Anyone that says I don't have a say, can kiss my ass! I earned my say, unlike those that were BORN here.

In all honesty I am torn by this issue. My family was lucky enough to get legal immigration status. I have worked hard to get my citizenship in this country (still working on it-the system is broken).

I can completely sympathize with those poeple who have entered this country illegaly (yup I said it!). They are people who came here looking for a better life for themselves and their children.

IF, I had been in a situation where I could not feed myself of my family, I would have done the same. If put into that situation I don't think anyone else would do differently. In this country we have a luxuriuos life that many envy (for good reason).

This country has laws. I am very well aware of that. The laws as they are written do now work. As a country we allow people with skills to work within our borders at the expense of the middle class. These are engineers and computer specialists, not untrained and unskilled workers. Why is there no outcry about those jobs being lost? GM, Ford, Microsoft, etc, are all "outsourcing" and "downsizing" at the expense of the middle class. Why no clamor about that?

While we focus on people that are barely earning enough to survive, we are ignoring the fact that skilled jobs are moving overseas.

The 11 million illegal immigrants who are the targets of so much hatred are the very lowest rung on the economic ladder. These people are willing to work for pennies in jobs that for the most part do not take away from the middle class (if anything they keep the middle class afloat). I surely wouldn't do their jobs. They are no threat to me (or anyone I know).

Health Care. Yes, illegal immigrants raise the price of health care (among other things), but in all honesty is anyone looking at the profits of these companies? Oil companies make a 9% profit margin in their industry while medical companies are making astronomical profits (on the order of 20%+). The country is in an uproar about gas prices, but there is no such interest in health care?!

This country was built on immigration. Unless you are a Native American (which I am not-unless you count Central America-which no one does) then we are ALL immigrants. Times are tough, but to shut our doors to immigrants now, would be hippocracy.

Ellis Island did not reject your grandfathers (Native Americans not withstanding). The problems where different then, but they are not so different that we should isolate ourselves from immigrants now. They are, and always have been the lifeblood of this nation.

-Shadizar
 
I fly the flag every day and night. Covered from rain and snow by the porch and always lit at night.

I'll be buying some 12ga and .22 ammo tomorrow at Mills Fleet Farm. Probably also pick up some socks or something and maybe a Rapala or two. Hmmmmm. They've got the Remington 870 Express on sale for $229. Hmmmmm.:evil:
 
I am a legal immigrant to this country. I have my "green card" and served four years in the United States Marine Corps. Anyone that says I don't have a say, can kiss my ass! I earned my say, unlike those that were BORN here.
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm missing something, but who is telling you that YOU don't have a say?

If they do, they are ignorant, ill-informed and/or in serious need of attitude adjustment.
 
"Immigrant" is a term that is widely used to include both illegal and legal immigrants. I am a legal immigrant, but I often find myself lumped in with the "illegals."

In my personal life I've noticed that my views are not widely held in high regard, because I'm not a "citizen."

Because many on this board are former military, I expect they have a broader view in that respect. Its one reason I like this forum.

I felt the need to get that out perhaps....It bothers me.

-Shadizar
 
I plan to eat a Taco Bell for the irony.

My wife is half Mexican. She says that Mexicans are generally lazy and have gotten tired of protest marches, so they hit on this idea to get a day off from work. :neener:

She's torn between her two natures. The Mexican half wants to take a day off from work, too. The German half wants to line up and shoot all the illegals who are causing trouble. Very conflicted lady. :evil:
 
Shadizar....
In that case, although your opinion is certainly worth considering and your service is truly appreciated (I'm also a Vet), until you become a citizen of the USA, your opinion is only that - an opinion, IMO.
Finish the process and vote.:)
Biker
 
As a non voting member of our society I understand my opinion is only my own. I am finishing the process. Until then, all I can do is voice my opinion. So that's what I've done...

-Shadizar
 
If the idea here is to demonstrate to the rest of the country what a "day without immigrants" would be like, I think they aren't going far enough. In addition to not going to work or patronizing businesses, etc. I propose they also:

--not ride the bus
--suspend their own driver's license
--try not to get injured because they can't really go to the ER and not ruin their experiment
--burn any food stamps in their possession
--move out of any rent-controlled living facility

...I think you get what I"m saying. If you're going to "drop out", then really drop out for a day.

(just playing devil's advocate here, my position on illegal immigration may not be interpreted correctly by this short statement)
 
Ellis Island did not reject your grandfathers
Click to expand...

Every immigrant coming through Ellis Island went through quarantine, registration, paperwork, and identification. LEGALLY.

Also, I am originally from S. Florida, where it was and is still a fact that nearly EVERY Haitian refugee, people fleeing from a true hellhole, have been sent right back...or tossed into the Krome Avenue detention camp. Yes, that's right, there's been an American detention camp for well over 20 years, way out in the Everglades, and mostly only Haitians get put in it. Despite the fact that every one I ever met tended to consider themselves an American or wanted to be one, and spoke a beautifully precise King's English, and often held more than one job.

Explain how that's fair for that to happen, while the Mexican illegals demand "rights"?
In this area, we have some Somali and other refugees, people from places utterly destroyed by war. They're just grateful to be here and be alive, and not have to worry about being pulled into the street and shot in the night. They don't demand anything. They're working hard to educate themselves and their families, too, to get good jobs. The overall attitude seems to be "We're SAFE now...we can actually live." not "This country owes us something!"...as other currently protesting groups are demanding. (I do feel sorry for people from Africa who got transplanted to New England winters, though!) :)

So why is it that refugees who would just be happy to be here, period, are turned away and ignored by the government, while illegal immigrants from ONE still-has-infrastructure nation to the south, who are demanding rights they're not due, are proclaimed to be "necessary" by the government officials, by Bush cooperating with Fox, and by the complicit media?
 
We can all see what happens tomorrow. If I don't see any difference, I'll stick to my current opinions. If the world as I know it grinds to a halt, I'll buy a Mexican flag and start taking Spanish lessons.
 
Anyone that says I don't have a say, can kiss my ass!
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You're missing the point. Noone is saying that you, a legal immigrant, shouldn't have a say.

I can completely sympathize with those poeple who have entered this country illegaly (yup I said it!).
Click to expand...
So can I. So can many, probably most of those of us who are against illegal immigration. In fact, my two best friends are here illegally. (They've overstayed their visas and will be leaving, which makes a difference, but they're illegal aliens right now.) None of that changes the fact that they are draining our economy and bringing disease, crime, and socialism here.

The problems where different then, but they are not so different that we should isolate ourselves from immigrants now. They are, and always have been the lifeblood of this nation.
Click to expand...
Still missing the point. Let me supply the missing word in enough quantity so that everyone who's leaving it out can add it in the appropriate place:

IllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegal
IllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegal
IllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegal
IllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegal
IllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegal
IllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegalIllegal

Get it?
 
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