Maybe the 9mm isn't very effective!

[JohnKSa]

Does the number of practice rounds "really" make a difference for shot placement? It pretty much all goes south when the first incoming round shows up. Unless you practice with someone shooting at you.

Lessee here...

Yes.
No.
Um... Right.

I would say it depends on your practice methods to some extent, but I think that if you are a good shot (which is based in part on how much/how well you practice), your shot placement will be better than otherwise.

Your skills will be degraded to some extent by high levels of stress. The key is whether you're degrading excellent skills (gained by extensive practice) or whether your degrading practically non-existent skills. How well you shoot in a high stress situation depends on how well you handle stress and how well you shoot unstressed. If you're REALLY bad at handling stress, you might be able to accurately say that "it all goes south" but in general, the better you shoot unstressed, the better you will shoot stressed.

The key isn't whether you're being shot at or not, it's whether you're under stress or not. There are ways to creat a high-stress environment without shooting at someone. This would allow them to learn to shoot under high stress and also to learn how to deal with high stress.

 

[Jack19]

One of the benefits of working in a morgue is that I get to see what works and what doesn't. Ballistic gelatin is good as far as it goes, but there's nothing like seeing what a bullet actually does once it strikes bone, flesh, and organs. Suffice it to say, it doesn't always mimic ballistic gelatin.

hahahahahaha. This is too easy. If you work in a morgue, don't ALL calibers work????

LMAO

I could understand the point if the guy was a doctor...and people came in, well, alive....

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Does the number of practice rounds "really" make a difference for shot placement? It pretty much all goes south when the first incoming round shows up.

A SEAL Team working up for deployment fires an awful lot of practice rounds in the six month period prior to the float. It seems like many of the groups that do go in harms way place a premium on training.

How you train probably makes a bigger difference than the number of rounds though. The guy who practices drawing from concealment and engaging reactive targets from the move for 2,900 rounds is probably going to be better off than the guy who spends 7,000 rounds standing in a shooting lane, shooting at paper and casually taking his time with aiming, reloading and shooting.

Unless you practice with someone shooting at you.

Force on force with simunitions! A little pricier and harder to organize though so I don't do that one too much; but it is definitely a learning experience and lets you learn in a stressful but safer environment if done properly.

One thing I noticed in our class is that people tend to revert to their training under stress - and if people didn't have training that addressed that situation there tended to be a few more seconds of "Uh what do I do now?" before their brain kicked in.

 

[hatterasurf]

I'm tired of this post. I know i'm new to this site and i may not know as much as the guy reading this(you) BUT if a person is shot with any gun it is going to phase him to apoint that he pauses or stops from death. That why i feel 100% safe caring a 9mm. How would you react to being shoot with a 9mm? Who wants to ask this guy question about what he thinks, he know no more that anyone else. He sees bodies that have been shot, and cause of that they are dead. So any caliber he see works. :banghead:

 

[Checkman]

I have to agree. It's time to put this thread to rest. Let us start it up again in a couple of months.

 

[boomstik45]

You can put this thread to rest, but another just like it will spring up. Why? How? Easy: someone will bring up something that eventually turns into a caliber war, like usual. Because they can't stand the fact that somebody else doesn't like their particular caliber, type of gun, etc. And then all the "facts" will begin to appear. Oh well, this IS a gun forum. It's also one reason that I am open to and will carry various weapons with different calibers. I like .45 and 9mm due to the variety of platforms available, variety of loadings, and availability of ammunition everywhere I go. Tell ya what else, though: fighting... or self defense, rather...is so much more than just guns and what kind you carry, caliber, etc. It's about awareness, particularly in regard to surroundings. And it's about being able to use more than just a gun (which you may not even get to or may be used against you)....but that's not really a discussion for this forum. Too many scenarios to discuss, ya know?

 

[Gord]

Because they can't stand the fact that somebody else doesn't like their particular caliber, type of gun, etc.

I think what I'm going to do is start fanboying for the .22LR or .25ACP. I'll spout some gibberish about sectional density and ballistic coefficients and I won't back down until everyone accepts .22LR/.25ACP as the only round a real man who's got a pair and is serious about protecting him and his will carry. Damn the torpedoes (and the gel tests and the witness accounts and the empirical evidence) - I'm right and I know it!

Oughta throw the .45 guys for a loop.

 

[Rotorflyr]

think what I'm going to do is start fanboying for the .22LR or .25ACP. I'll spout some gibberish about sectional density and ballistic coefficients and I won't back down until everyone accepts .22LR/.25ACP as the only round a real man who's got a pair and is serious about protecting him and his will carry

Say what you will, but both those calibers have killed plenty of people. As has the .32acp
Doesn't mean they are the most effective choices, but if that's all you have, it's better then nothing.






*and no, none of those would likely be my first choice

 

[Panthera Tigris]

I guess those of us who aren't strong enough to handle the .40 and .45 might as well just get rid of our puny 9mms and give up.


Didn't anyone notice when someone who knew that pathologist over at the s&w forum called him out, the pathologist never responded?

He said something to the effect that he was busy now and had other things to do and disappeared without ever responding to the one who knew him.

That says a lot right there, AFAIC

 

[AK103K]

If you can handle a 9mm, you can easily handle a .45acp. Neither have much recoil, and if anything, the 9mm is snappier.

 

[boomstik45]

Tactical Ninja, I'll aid your argument by saying that .22 is better than .25 just because it has more versatility in loadings. Besides, with the surge of .17hmr, the .25 is almost dead, right? Heh, heh, heh. That'll draw even more flames if we can get anybody to participate. Okay, back onto my rocker now...

 

[Panthera Tigris]

If you can handle a 9mm, you can easily handle a .45acp. Neither have much recoil, and if anything, the 9mm is snappier.

Not true. Not even close. I can rapid fire a 9mm, but I cannot handle the .45. I just sold a 1911 because I cannot handle the .45. My hands are getting aged and have arthritis. I've tried both the .45 and .40 and I cannot handle the recoil of either. I can handle 9mm and 38 special just fine however.

 

[arinvolvo]

all i know is that i can empty a mag of 9mm accurately into my target in about half the time i can do the same with a mag (less rounds) of 40 cal.

 

[Gord]

Tactical Ninja, I'll aid your argument by saying that .22 is better than .25 just because it has more versatility in loadings. Besides, with the surge of .17hmr, the .25 is almost dead, right?

Frm now on, whenever a caliber war starts up, we are to begin arguing amongst ourselves - vehemently - about which is better, the .22, .25, or .17HMR. Understood?

With any luck, all the 9mm-vs.-.45 guys will join the fray, fueled by my claims that I CCW a Beretta 21 and carry a Jetfire with a 5-point tactical sling as a member of Blackwater's VIP protection squad.

"That .25, it's the flattest-shootin' manstopper I've ever seen..."

 

[AK103K]

Panthera,

I hadnt considered that aspect of it. I guess I should keep it in mind, I'm not all that far off.

I've never had any problem with any of them recoil wise. Each has its own impulse, but I've never found any of them hard to shoot well with. To me the 9mm is "snappier" where the .45 is more of a push, the 357SIG/.40 are somewhere in the middle.

Barring physical problems, if your in reasonable shape, you should be able to handle any of them. I often think that people worry to much about recoil than just concentrate on shooting and putting the rounds in there. The more you fight the recoil, the harder it is to shoot. If you relax, its a whole new experience. At least it is for me.

 

[AJD]

I like .45 ACP. Your views may differ. Fact is, there is no perfect evidence to support that 9mm is better than .40 SW or .45 ACP or vice verse or etc. etc.

A reliable, accurate handgun with an accurate shooter behind it will always be a more important factor than what size bullet he is throwing downrange.

 

[High Planes Drifter]

edit

 

[High Planes Drifter]

The .25 has that sort of "slow roll" to it, whereas the .22 is "snappier". I dont really like the recoil of the .17 tho; and ammo is so darned pricey. I dunno, there's really not much difference in the size of the hole between the 3.

 

[Gord]

The .25 has that sort of "slow roll" to it

Are you insinuating that anything invented by JMB isn't capable of downing grizzly?

And regarding the .22LR - my great-grandfather carried his trusty U22 Neos into Cheyenne territory during the Battle of the Bulge and was credited with killing over 40 Vietcong with a single magazine of ammo.

I also heard from a friend's uncle's niece's pool boy's cat's groomer's babysitter that she saw a cop shoot a bad guy who soaked up 63 rounds of 9mm to the face without so much as flinching, and then killed the cop with a single .22LR shot to the pinkie. Turned him into a cloud of fine red mist and spalled from his knee to his shoulder and back again!

Are you contesting my inarguable proof that the .22LR is the king of manstoppers?

I say, sir, you are a charlatan of the most wicked variety!

 

[steelhead]

 

[up_onus]

This thread is awesome!

its like the energizer bunny....

anyway, so forensically(spelling?) he doesnt see a lot of dead people....
does that mean they didnt get stopped?

and...
Ill take a 9mm over a .380, .32, or .22 any day!
somehow this gun has managed to stay around as long as it has, must be because its a HORRIBLE calibre....

 

[Oregongundude]

The nice thing is that the 9 mm is still providing corpses also.

Yes, I have all three of the major handguns in automatics and I believe they will all do the job. I think my Winchester Ranger 9 mm 127 grain +p+ JHP will do a fine job at killing about as good as my .45 acp with the 165 grain corbon's, or my 155 Federal grain hydra shoks out of my .40 SW. In most cases the 9 mm JHP's usually hit the spine and end the attackers life with good shot placement.

I think my Chevy SUV has 100% one hit knockdown rating. I would use it as a weapon if needed.

 

[mr.trooper]

Again, how do we know this "Expert" isnt making it up?

There are LOTS of armchair experts that are MORE than willing to bend the truth in order to promote their pet caliber and pull down the caliber that, for whatever arbitrary reason, they have elected to hate.

The bottom line is, we have to take this guys WORD that he is some kind of mortition, and not just a janitor that works in the mourge.

One thing that makes me suspicious is how he hates 9mm, but thinks 357 is a "glorious" self defence round. You CANT tell me ther is any real difference between a .355 hollow point and a .357 hollowpoint; especialy when so many plain-jane JHPs in bolth calibers will penetrate through-and-through the target.

 

[Panthera Tigris]

You've hit it right on the head, Mr Trooper. He dodged the other guy on the thread who thought he might know him. That alone made his claims dubious in my opinion. There were other discrepancies pointed out in his claims by others too, such as the huge number of autopsies per year he claimed to have been involved in.

 

[boomstik45]

Well, Ninja, I would have to say that I'd much rather go with the .25 because the .22 long rifle means the grip of the gun might be bigger....uh, doesn't it? Besides, I don't know if I could handle the recoil of a "rifle" round in a pistol. Besides, the .25 is bigger, .05 bigger to be exact! I would just have to get myself a nearly extinct Raven Arms or maybe a Titan (good luck finding one of those boogers) with a tactical stainless slide and one spring to hold it all together. Hey wait a minute. Maybe I could get a revolver chambered in .17Hmr. Yeah, the speed of a .223 with the knock down power of a .....ummmm....well....hmmm...well, it's more than what your's is, I can tell ya that, buddy!!