Middle Easterners at the range

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It's pretty clear a couple of posters are being racist.. but they either lack the courage or self respect to be honest. Rather than beat around the bush, why not be honest with your fellow posters so they can respond with the proper criticism?

There is clear discrimination towards people of middle eastern decent, and while their culture is different from ours that doesn't make them bad people. It's important to understand that terrorists are extremists.

One thing often touted about this country (the United States) is how tolerant a people we are. SHOW SOME TOLERANCE.


Shoot straight with them pistols, or get the hell off the range.
 
It's pretty clear a couple of posters are being racist.. but they either lack the courage or self respect to be honest. Rather than beat around the bush, why not be honest with your fellow posters so they can respond with the proper criticism?

There is clear discrimination towards people of middle eastern decent, and while their culture is different from ours that doesn't make them bad people. It's important to understand that terrorists are extremists.

One thing often touted about this country (the United States) is how tolerant a people we are. SHOW SOME TOLERANCE.


Tolerant of what? I don't tolerate stupid people or ignorant people, or those that would like to tell me how to live my life.

As for discrimination, there are laws preventing the government, businesses, and private parties in some select situations from doing this on the basis of race, gender or ethnicity.

I ain't the government. Unless I'm selling my house (and a couple other small exceptions) I reserve the right to make snap judgments on people based on their appearance and how they carry themselves. Whether I actually decide to do this is up to me, however I am under no obligation to be understanding or tolerant.

As people I personally think we should treat EVERYONE with respect, and be polite and courteous. That said, if you think that I'm not gonna have my eye on the guy sitting in A2 with the beard and arabic accent you're crazy. In doing so I'm not causing him offense because he has no idea what I'm doing.

All people of arabic descent are not terrorists. However since I don't know which ones are or which ones aren't, profiling is a prudent thing to do. Its not racist, its just pragmatic.
 
Unless I'm selling my house (and a couple other small exceptions) I reserve the right

.. and we're talking ethics here.. not law.
What I am saying is if someone IS racist, I would appreciate them being straight forward about it. That way I know ahead of time. :cool:
 
arab does not necessarily equal muslim. muslim does not necessarily mean terrorist. my nanny was christian had to flee lebanon when she was 23 because of the whole sale slaughter of her parents and family because of thier christian beliefs.:barf:

if those young men had been acting suspicously then it would be different but to be suspicious because of the fact that they were doing something that everyone in this forum enjoys because of what they looked like is pretty :cuss:
 
SarahE,

I agree with your first sentence. Your second accurately describes the current enemy.

I must respectfully disagree with the second part of your third sentence however (with the caveat being the level of suspicion). I think that one would be remiss while this Country is at war, not to at least take note and observe.

Unfortunately for whole swaths of this Country's population, they fit a general "look" of the enemy. But I think that one would be remiss if one didn't take another glance, just to make sure that nothing was outwardly untowards.

have a great day,
cavman
 
I would agree that Arab != Muslim != Terrorist (!= means "not equal", for you non-programmers)

Heck, I offered to take my Arabic professor to the range this year after a discussion we had in class about guns. He declined, but I thought about extending the offer to some of the other students in the class (some of them from Arab and Muslim nations). Then I realized that the kid I was sitting next to, with an Egyptian name, son of immigrants from Egypt, was born in raised in Alabama, and more of a redneck than me.

Race is only skin deep. I've met plenty of Arabs and Muslims I'd trust my life to, and plenty of whities (and blacks, Hispanics, Asians, etc, for that matter) that I'd be watching out of the corner of my eye the whole time I shared a range with them, and that's if I even stuck around.

I'd have just asked the guys where they got the Usama targets so I could get some of my own. :)

However, I'm not criticizing the OP. It's okay to heighten your awareness based on a gut feeling.
 
While there, three young men of middle eastern decent showed up and were shooting targets of Osama Bin Ladin. They were laughing about the head shots they were making with their AK-47.

Maybe it's the middle eastern equivilent to a couple guys throwing darts at a picture of their boss? Office humor knows no cultural boundries.


I guess I'm guilty of discrimination as well. A few times that I've visited my favorite outdoor place to shoot here in San Diego I've noticed some crusty looking dudes out shooting. One time there were two Mexican cowboy-style guys with two younger wanna-be gang member types with them. They were just blasting away with their SKSs. It appeared as though they were not shooting at any particular targets. I remember a warning light going of in my head, but that was about the extent of it (just like a 'keep these guys in mind' sort of thing).

Was I being discriminatory? Was it just an uncle and his friend showing a nephew and a pal how to shoot? Or was it something more sinister? Gangbangers testing illegal street weapons, perhaps?

The truth is I don't really care since I can't do anything about it. Besides, my guns were cooler.

I wasn't wrong to take notice of these individuals. I live in San Diego, and on most of the news clips that I see when guns and drugs are involved, gangerbangers are usually the ones getting busted. The gangbangers that I frequently see on the news look quite similar to the two young adults that I saw out on the range. Hence my suspicions.

Back to your situation.
The news reports always show pictures of arab men, while giving the vibe that 'we all' must be wary. So you were being wary. Not cynical, just wary.

The societies that we live in partially condition us to respond in particular ways during particular situations. There's no real right or wrong about it. Sometimes these built in responses aren't always nice or appropriate but they are there for a reason (sometimes good, sometimes bad). I've always felt that simply recognizing when I've been doing it (say, having a racist thought, for example) aides me in making the healthiest decisions.

OK, now you guys know why I don't post a lot. Cause I suck at it:neener:

Mike M
 
A few middle-easterners are trying very hard to make the name a synonym for homicidal maniac, so your concern is understandable.

I work with lots of people who look middle-eastern and wouldn't give your situation a second thought, so I think your concern is simply a lack exposure to people who look a certain way. They are just like everyone else.
 
Sunday afternoon I and some friends met at the Garland Public Shooting Range. While there, three men of redneck decent showed up and were shooting their guns, one being a nice No.4 MKII Enfield. They were looking at us with distrust and your usual American suspiscion.

They seemed nice but I couldn't help but wonder if this was a front or something. I really want to believe they were just out having fun but there is this thing in the back of my mind that says, they could be up to no good. I realize I am profiling and have no problem with that. Everyone does it to a certain degree. The question I have is, am I wrong to have suspicions? Where these guys doing this just because I appear to be middle eastern? Do they really automatically associate us with terrorists and blame 9/11 on each and every one of us? Am I being too cynical?
Your opinions, either way, are welcome.
Thanks,

Ahkmed

P.S. BTW, I had several guns there but the one I was enjoying the most, this day, was my old AK-47.


Door swings both ways chief...
 
While it may be true that most Arab males are not islamic terrorists it is also true that most (in fact d*** near all) islamic terrorists have been Arab males.
Simply wrong.
Most have actually been African, next I think are the Asians. But it is true that the ones who flew into the WTC and pentagon were Arab Males.
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Jose Padilla
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Women
 
Perhaps the swarthy fellows just wanted to enjoy some time at the range? As was pointed out, they could likely be one of several other ethnicities.

We can not know their religion or ethnicity, given current information. Staying alert & being "minimally observent" did no one any harm & it sounds as if they did no one any harm at the range.

-----------

For folks not from the north side of Dallas, I think a few clues might help explain our original poster's angst.
1. There are a lot of middle eastern, south asian, and oriental recent immigrants in the north Texas area, especially Richardson, Garland, Plano areas.
2. A great many of those are muslim immigrants who are clearly not interested in assimilating into American culture. How could someone tell? Well, there are subtle hints such as making thier women wear burkas & sit in the back seat of the car, even if they are the only two in the car. Go to the public library and you'll find those burka-clad women devouring our books.
3. This is the center of much terrorist funding & support activity. Several local businesses & charities have been shut down and the principals indicted & convicted for aiding terrorist organizations.

We can mouth platitudes about how the terrorist supporters are in the minority, they are not representative, etc. That is most likely correct. We also do not know the proportion of those who actively support terrorist organizations or are sympathetic. It may be terrifically small. We can, however, determine the proportion that is not willing to speak out against their terrorist-supporting neighbors: purt' near all. Their motivation may be fear of retaliation or sympathy, but the end result is the same: the terrorists & their supporters have a sea to swim in which precludes our ferreting them out and increased the suspicion of their neighbors.

As was evidenced by the original post.

------------------------

Pointing out a buddy of yours who is muslim or arab or whatever and is a great guy has no bearing on the reality here. I, too, can claim buddies of muslim arab decent (one even born in Iraq). Big whoop.

The ugly facts are:
1. The overwhelming majority of terrorists to attack America in the last few decades have been of arab decent.
2. The overwhelming majority of terrorists to attack America in the last few decades have been muslim.
3. Almost every terrorist to attack America in the last few decades has been muslim, with the exception of McVay, Rudolph, & a few others.

Noticing those "Inconvenient Truths" and integrating them into one's understanding of reality is a reasonable course of action.
 
For folks not from the north side of Dallas, I think a few clues might help explain our original poster's angst.
1. There are a lot of middle eastern, south asian, and oriental recent immigrants in the north Texas area, especially Richardson, Garland, Plano areas.

I've lived in the North Texas area since 1995. Yes, there are lots of foreign- looking people and recent immigrants. Foreigners and other people who do not look like "us" can be scary. Human beings tend to fear the unknown, and tend to hate what they fear. This instinctive fear of scary foreigners can be overcome.

2. A great many of those are muslim immigrants who are clearly not interested in assimilating into American culture. How could someone tell? Well, there are subtle hints such as making thier women wear burkas & sit in the back seat of the car, even if they are the only two in the car. Go to the public library and you'll find those burka-clad women devouring our books.

Are Jews who wear yarmulkes "clearly not interested in assimilating into American culture."? Are Americans who happen to be Sikhs "clearly not interested in assimilating into American culture." because they wear their turbans? Are devout Christian women who do not wear the prevailing pop-culture summer uniform of tube top, low riders, and tatoo in the small of the back "clearly not interested in assimilating into American culture."? Just because someone dresses or worships differently from you does not mean they are not Americans or uninterested in becoming part of the American culture. You apparently have little understanding of the Muslims living around you. All of the Muslim women my wife and I know wear the hijab because they want to please God, not their husbands. In fact, I know of 2 women who wear the head cover DESPITE their (allegedly oppressive muslim) husband's objections. The only ones I know that sit in the back seat are there because they prefer to sit next to their child who is back there in the infant seat in case the baby needs anything.


3. This is the center of much terrorist funding & support activity. Several local businesses & charities have been shut down and the principals indicted & convicted for aiding terrorist organizations.

We can mouth platitudes about how the terrorist supporters are in the minority, they are not representative, etc. That is most likely correct. We also do not know the proportion of those who actively support terrorist organizations or are sympathetic. It may be terrifically small. We can, however, determine the proportion that is not willing to speak out against their terrorist-supporting neighbors: purt' near all. Their motivation may be fear of retaliation or sympathy, but the end result is the same: the terrorists & their supporters have a sea to swim in which precludes our ferreting them out and increased the suspicion of their neighbors.

Well, I know about almost all the cases you must be referring to. When you get down into them, they are politically motivated. I know many of the folks convicted in these cases, and I believe the convictions are miscarriages of justice. Oh, but of course we all know that the Fed.gov and it's vigilant agencies (like our beloved BATFE) NEVER railroad innocent people to score political points:rolleyes:

I know many Muslims in the community that alarms you so much, and I don't know any that "actively support terrorist organizations or are sympathetic" or "are "terrorist-supporting neighbors" I DO know many that volunteered to become translators for the police and FBI, even a few that signed on. Every Muslim organization in the area has publicly condemned 9/11 and terrorism. The Mosque in Richardson (one of the largest in the country) has invited the FBI to speak in the Mosque, and they have held many open houses to reach out to the wider community. Every Muslim I know and to whom I've spoken about this issue has said that if they had legitimate suspicion that someone they knew was a terrorist, they'd report it to the authorities. Many have said they would report despite the fear that they would almost certainly then be arrested by overzealous feds on the assumption that if they were reporting something, they must be involved somehow. This is not an unwarranted fear, it has happened.

How do I know any of this? Well, let me introduce myself. I am an American. My family has been here since 1749. I have ancestors who have fought in the Revolutionary war, the Whisky Rebellion (the losing side), the Civil War (both sides) WWI, WWII, Veitnam, and Gulf war I. I am a USAF veteran. I love Smith & Wesson revolvers, and collect them (as many as my meager budget allows). My politics are Libertarian. I love my country, and I think the Democrats and Republicans are busy crushing the last vestiges of the Constitution. I am also a Muslim. I'm white with blond hair, so you wouldn't know by looking at me, but I am. My wife is an Arab, also libertarian politically, and a proud American since 1996. She wears hijab. We pray 5 times a day, fast Ramadan, and otherwise live like Muslims. We are also Americans. Just like many other Muslims we know. We love this country, although we aren't fond of our government, and vote Libertarian in the hopes that someday, America will return to the values that made her great. Not much hope, I know, but if you vote for Republicans or Democrats, you will only get more of the same. And we all know the definition of insanity right? Doing the same thing but expecting a different result.

If some Muslims seem to be brooding or stand-offish, it may be because of the hostility they have met with from ignorant people who think Muslim or Arab is synonymous with Terrorist. Even before 9/11, so-called Americans frequently harrassed and threatened Muslims for being different. Women particularly. After 9/11, it got worse. 5 "good, white Christian boys" threatened to stab my daughter to death for being Muslim. A man in Dallas shot 3 store clerks for just "looking" Muslim, and when arrested, had guns, ammo, and written plans to attack the Mosque during Friday prayers, kill the Richardson cops directing traffic outside, then go in and kill as many as he could. Many avoid you and separate themselves from fear, not malice.

ok, Rant off.
 
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Have a look at the middle age, middle class, white Christians going to soldiers funerals to talk trash.

Sorry. You're wrong. These people aren't Christian. I can call my pick-up truck a 747, but it won't fly. Neither does calling those devils, Christians.
 
Pinned: they present themselves as Christian. Since Christianity is a religion (which is a personal choice), we kinda have to accept them as Christian. That said...

EVERY religion has it's lunatic fringe, that gives the rest a bad name. That's all part of being human. Just shake your head, lead your life by the example you want to set, and let the fringe go hang itself (I STILL say Phelps' crew is gonna disappear one day)...
 
Good post .41Dave.

If I think of all the people I know here in the US around here the terrorist supporters seem to be more the supporters of people like Eric Rudolph who bombed alot of gay nightclubs and abortion clinics. They were praising him to high heaven in the cities and towns near me. Further north I heard many people in the past praise the great actions of the IRA when they were blowing up town centres. Then you have white extremists popular throughout the US who regularly get caught planning attacks with weapons of mass destruction but only get covered in very local news for some odd strange reason. Ecoterrorists out west burning buildings, cars and such occasionally happen and have some supporters.

You can find terrorist sympathises for all types of causes but you never heard people saying we should report everysingle irish american because they may be funding money to the Real IRA. Middle Easterners are just different and it seems everything different and not used to is automatically suspect, nor do people get to know these better.
 
I've been to the range with lots of Middle-easterners. Mostly Kurds, and mostly Muslims.

Then again, that range was in Baghdad :D

Some bad mofos, too
 
Mannlicher, read your own signature line, then look at the things the Government is doing to "protect" you in the "War on Terror". Wake up, dude! Muslims are not your enemy. Yes, I know we are all weird and scary and different, BUT, Muslims can't take your liberty, only the Government can. Consider the following quotes (From non-Muslims)

"The only way Governments can induce citizens to surrender their rights is convincing them that by doing so, they will gain a measure of safety in exchange" -Thomas Jefferson

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed - and hence clamorous to be led to safety - by menacing them with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."
-- H.L. Mencken

"He who would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." --Thomas Paine
 
The ugly facts are:
1. The overwhelming majority of terrorists to attack America in the last few decades have been of arab decent.
2. The overwhelming majority of terrorists to attack America in the last few decades have been muslim.
3. Almost every terrorist to attack America in the last few decades has been muslim, with the exception of McVay, Rudolph, & a few others.
Again, not true:
Most "terrorist" attacks in America have been perpetrated by Americans. From the weathermen to the OKC bomb, to abortion clinic bombings, to the killing of Mathew Shepard, to the likely perpetrator of the anthrax attacks.

There are only two attacks on American Shores that were perpetrated by Arab Muslims that come to my mind. 1. 9/11 2. WTC Bombing the first.

If you want, we can play a game, the rules are that you must name an arab/muslim terorist attack in the US, and I must name two that were not.
 
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