military surplus rifle for a project?
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jason41987
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i might give that a look boom boom.. been a lot of auctions around me lately selling guns, i could likely find a donor there as well.. not much of a price to get the barreled receiver, and since i have the tools and skills to carve a stock, that should save a bit as well
curious about your 1903 project though, how much can you get a barreled 1903 action for?
curious about your 1903 project though, how much can you get a barreled 1903 action for?
barnbwt
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"well, the reason i like the steyr is the aesthetics of the short 20 inch military carbines and the en bloc clips, i dont have too much knowledge on them and now that i think about the age of that rifle.. i wonder is the 8mm mauser it fires the same one the WWII K98K fires?.. im aware there were a few different variants of the cartridge, some of them a lot lower pressure than the WWII 8mm mauser round.. so pressure does come into question, not to mention just how old most them are"
The Steyr most certainly shoots the exact same 8mm Mauser that any Mauser-Mauser does. In fact, the Nazi-made 8x56R ammunition is reportedly the hottest infantry rifle ammunition ever made (pressure wise, not quite bolt-thrust wise, IIRC) with nearly impractical recoil. The action is actually incredibly strong, and I think the gas-handling issue, while real, warrants less worry than we instinctively give it. The firing pin is small and well designed, and these guns were made to high standards from quality steels (carbon steel really hasn't changed much in 100 years). The lug design is beefier than a modern Remington. Lots of these guns out there, but very few (none I could find) stories of kabooms; I think it just doesn't happen (again, not to say it can't). For all I know, a pierced primer might merely make the gun self-eject, and delay unlocking enough to prevent catastrophic failure
. Age alone does not an unsafe gun make.
The biggest reason to choose K98k over the Steyr is that the trigger pull will be better before/after work on the former every time. Not a concern for me, since I'm forced to replace/modify every last part of the gun besides the bolt sleeve to accommodate the new round in my build. Also, Mauser builds in every caliber imaginable are well-trod ground by this point, so you'll find loads of help along the way (and not have to spend a week finding thread pitch info, for example )
"The K31 is way faster in cycling than any turnbolt action, even the fabled Lee-Enfield."
This. I've messed with L-E's about as much as K31s --which isn't much at all-- but there is no comparison. The L-E is like slapping a stick shift around; you can get pretty fast with it and do it as a fluid motion. But the K31 bolt can be flung back with your finger tips and thrown forward with your thumb without even moving your elbow*. It's like claiming the Duke boys could get into their car faster by opening the doors than by sliding in through the windows; two movements vs. one. The limiting factor in both cases isn't even the bolt, but the sight acquisition; and IIRC the L-E sights are a bit faster to pick up on for most. Also, the K31 has a long, but excellent, two stage trigger that may break later than the Enfield when aiming.
Straight pulls are also easier to convert to semi-auto (deep in the membrane, I have recurring thoughts about a way to swap my brush-gun receiver/barrel/bolt into a setup with a semi-auto recoil operation that feeds from modified DP28 pan magazines). Probably not applicable here, but the OP's previous threads lead me to believe he's the type to ponder guns of "conjectural plausibility" that are nonetheless cool as hell
"best of luck in your conversion to .450 Alaskan, this seems a much more reasonable route to go and should end up with a very handy and quick rifle for dealing with critters that are trying to have you for lunch."
Many thanks, but it's a 50 Alaskan
. All the better to smite buffaloes with. The barrel I have is a cut-off from one of Serbu's BMGs (originally 1.75" outside diameter ) and is still pretty heavy; 1" OD and 24" length (for now). The current plan is a Safari-style long barreled heavy rifle that is closer to a Sharps 50-90 than a guide gun. But I do intend to eventually outfit a light and short barrel for that role; should be faster and easier to cycle in tight brush than a lever gun and bolt action combined. It'll depend on how accurate this thing ends up (not my goal, but I'll run with it if it comes out a tack driver)
After and before
TCB
*Nearly every video I've seen showing the K31 in action has the shooter grabbing the bolt with a fist to rack it, which is unnecessary and slow; a holdover from turn-bolt technique in which strong force is needed to cycle the action. Do we grab an AR charging handle with thumb and forefinger to pull it? No, we pull it back. Same for the Swiss, except you push it forward, too. Done this way, your thumb pushes it forward, your wrist rotates down, and your trigger finger is just above the trigger when the bolt is back in battery. Much like keeping your thumb on a Lee-Enfield bolt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=AVHsczHHv60#t=245
It's not hard, and I've never short-cycled like I see in nearly every Lee-Enfield "speed shooting" video. Looking at the way the gun moves in the video, the shooter uses way too much force on the Swiss, and it's obvious his movements are less efficient (practiced) on the K31. Strangely, this is the only comparison video I could find. I think the two camps don't usually purchase the others' rifle (I know I won't buy a L-E; too expensive any more ). I'd love to see a side-by-side done by someone practiced with both (where neither rifle is awkwardly jiggled all over the place during cycling). Especially with targets at 25, 50, and 100yds.
The Steyr most certainly shoots the exact same 8mm Mauser that any Mauser-Mauser does. In fact, the Nazi-made 8x56R ammunition is reportedly the hottest infantry rifle ammunition ever made (pressure wise, not quite bolt-thrust wise, IIRC) with nearly impractical recoil. The action is actually incredibly strong, and I think the gas-handling issue, while real, warrants less worry than we instinctively give it. The firing pin is small and well designed, and these guns were made to high standards from quality steels (carbon steel really hasn't changed much in 100 years). The lug design is beefier than a modern Remington. Lots of these guns out there, but very few (none I could find) stories of kabooms; I think it just doesn't happen (again, not to say it can't). For all I know, a pierced primer might merely make the gun self-eject, and delay unlocking enough to prevent catastrophic failure
. Age alone does not an unsafe gun make.The biggest reason to choose K98k over the Steyr is that the trigger pull will be better before/after work on the former every time. Not a concern for me, since I'm forced to replace/modify every last part of the gun besides the bolt sleeve to accommodate the new round in my build. Also, Mauser builds in every caliber imaginable are well-trod ground by this point, so you'll find loads of help along the way (and not have to spend a week finding thread pitch info, for example
)"The K31 is way faster in cycling than any turnbolt action, even the fabled Lee-Enfield."
This. I've messed with L-E's about as much as K31s --which isn't much at all-- but there is no comparison. The L-E is like slapping a stick shift around; you can get pretty fast with it and do it as a fluid motion. But the K31 bolt can be flung back with your finger tips and thrown forward with your thumb without even moving your elbow*. It's like claiming the Duke boys could get into their car faster by opening the doors than by sliding in through the windows; two movements vs. one. The limiting factor in both cases isn't even the bolt, but the sight acquisition; and IIRC the L-E sights are a bit faster to pick up on for most. Also, the K31 has a long, but excellent, two stage trigger that may break later than the Enfield when aiming.
Straight pulls are also easier to convert to semi-auto (deep in the membrane, I have recurring thoughts about a way to swap my brush-gun receiver/barrel/bolt into a setup with a semi-auto recoil operation that feeds from modified DP28 pan magazines). Probably not applicable here, but the OP's previous threads lead me to believe he's the type to ponder guns of "conjectural plausibility" that are nonetheless cool as hell
"best of luck in your conversion to .450 Alaskan, this seems a much more reasonable route to go and should end up with a very handy and quick rifle for dealing with critters that are trying to have you for lunch."
Many thanks, but it's a 50 Alaskan
. All the better to smite buffaloes with. The barrel I have is a cut-off from one of Serbu's BMGs (originally 1.75" outside diameter ) and is still pretty heavy; 1" OD and 24" length (for now). The current plan is a Safari-style long barreled heavy rifle that is closer to a Sharps 50-90 than a guide gun. But I do intend to eventually outfit a light and short barrel for that role; should be faster and easier to cycle in tight brush than a lever gun and bolt action combined. It'll depend on how accurate this thing ends up (not my goal, but I'll run with it if it comes out a tack driver)
After and before
TCB
*Nearly every video I've seen showing the K31 in action has the shooter grabbing the bolt with a fist to rack it, which is unnecessary and slow; a holdover from turn-bolt technique in which strong force is needed to cycle the action. Do we grab an AR charging handle with thumb and forefinger to pull it? No, we pull it back. Same for the Swiss, except you push it forward, too. Done this way, your thumb pushes it forward, your wrist rotates down, and your trigger finger is just above the trigger when the bolt is back in battery. Much like keeping your thumb on a Lee-Enfield bolt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=AVHsczHHv60#t=245
It's not hard, and I've never short-cycled like I see in nearly every Lee-Enfield "speed shooting" video. Looking at the way the gun moves in the video, the shooter uses way too much force on the Swiss, and it's obvious his movements are less efficient (practiced) on the K31. Strangely, this is the only comparison video I could find. I think the two camps don't usually purchase the others' rifle
(I know I won't buy a L-E; too expensive any more ). I'd love to see a side-by-side done by someone practiced with both (where neither rifle is awkwardly jiggled all over the place during cycling). Especially with targets at 25, 50, and 100yds.LAGS
Member
The Mosin nagant
I make replacement Dog Legged Bolt Handles for my rifles that moves the bolt down for a scope and more to the rear, and I shave down the top and bottom of the original buttstock flat,and Laminate blocks of wood to the stock, then reshape the stock into a Monte carlo style stock.
That is when I am not making a new Pistol grip stock for them.
The Mosin Nagant is a nice rifle to sporterize.
It isn't a Mauser, but a Very accurate rifle.
I also make a side mounted over the bore scope mount for my hex receiver models.
I make replacement Dog Legged Bolt Handles for my rifles that moves the bolt down for a scope and more to the rear, and I shave down the top and bottom of the original buttstock flat,and Laminate blocks of wood to the stock, then reshape the stock into a Monte carlo style stock.
That is when I am not making a new Pistol grip stock for them.
The Mosin Nagant is a nice rifle to sporterize.
It isn't a Mauser, but a Very accurate rifle.
I also make a side mounted over the bore scope mount for my hex receiver models.
jason41987
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you guys are REALLY making a case for that K31 in spite of the swiss having some kind of sick sense of humor with the way they made their barrels for them... though.. the more i think about it the more this comes to mind.. changing a barrel later on, though a bit more dfficult, is not impossible and it would be a rare occasion where id need to put in a new barrel.. even then, couldnt i just pay someone to bore it out and put a liner in?.. would this have a big negative effect on accuracy to go this route instead?.. its becoming REALLY hard to ignore how awesome its stripper clips are, 30 cal bullets do have a much larger variety as well..
barnbwt
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Maybe as a "compromise" you can just make your own Swiss strippers (my but that sounds fun ) from some epoxy resin and old fabric/cardboard. Just stack however many rounds you want single/double file, measure the dimensions, cut a similar-shaped mandrel from wood/plastic, lay up the composite, and then cut the thumb and loading openings. Leave the loading opening a tad smaller so a modicum* of force is required to push the rounds through, just like the original.
Should be both tougher and cheaper than real K31 clips, which have dried up for good, this time. And they'll fit whatever round you end up rechambering to better, being a custom job.
I have heard that relined barrels are not known for accuracy. Unless they are as rigid as the original barrel, there will always be some play, as well as bore misalignment and thermal expansion weirdities that hurt consistency. They are a great solution for getting a rifle/pistol functional again --just not good as new. When I get around to repairing my demilled Madsen LMG barrel, it will likely be with a liner
I still say you should just get two identical guns if we're trying to be practical and not fun here; you can always swap the trigger group and striker over to the new one if the first wears out, and the trigger pull and ergonomics would then be identical as before once re-zeroed. For most milsurps, this will be cheaper than even a "simple" Mauser re-barrel.
*To make the K31 even faster, tie one end of a shoelace around your wrist, pass the other end through the safety ring, and tie to the trigger. NFA laws may or may not apply. Let's see an Enfield beat a slam-firin' K31
TCB
) from some epoxy resin and old fabric/cardboard. Just stack however many rounds you want single/double file, measure the dimensions, cut a similar-shaped mandrel from wood/plastic, lay up the composite, and then cut the thumb and loading openings. Leave the loading opening a tad smaller so a modicum* of force is required to push the rounds through, just like the original.Should be both tougher and cheaper than real K31 clips, which have dried up for good, this time. And they'll fit whatever round you end up rechambering to better, being a custom job.
I have heard that relined barrels are not known for accuracy. Unless they are as rigid as the original barrel, there will always be some play, as well as bore misalignment and thermal expansion weirdities that hurt consistency. They are a great solution for getting a rifle/pistol functional again --just not good as new. When I get around to repairing my demilled Madsen LMG barrel, it will likely be with a liner
I still say you should just get two identical guns if we're trying to be practical and not fun here; you can always swap the trigger group and striker over to the new one if the first wears out, and the trigger pull and ergonomics would then be identical as before once re-zeroed. For most milsurps, this will be cheaper than even a "simple" Mauser re-barrel.
*To make the K31 even faster, tie one end of a shoelace around your wrist, pass the other end through the safety ring, and tie to the trigger.
NFA laws may or may not apply. Let's see an Enfield beat a slam-firin' K31 TCB
jason41987
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doesnt anyone make new K31 clips anymore or are the ones available all old surplus?... i really do like the color coded stripper clips the swiss used, a different color for each type of ammo.. i just like how you could pack a handful of those clips into a leather pouch and not have to worry about potentially bending the tips of any bullets, and they seem like theyd stack easier in an ammo can
geeze.. just looked up some stripper clip prices online.. $6 each.. i got like 20 of them for $5 for my mosin nagant.. i guess it would be pretty cost effective for someone to make their own.. thought those clips were metal?.. im reading that they are made from some kind of composite or resin.. shouldnt be hard to duplicate.. could hand-carve a re-usable mould i could lay the fabric over, pin it down, and then coat with resin and maybe another layer of fabric.. kind of like making a fiberglass or carbon fiber, but cheaper fabrics should work.. yeah, that sounds pretty doable
barn, your mention of a semi auto conversion intrigues me, that would be fun to try out.. maybe an M1 garand style op-rod including the gas system and the return spring, a little inletting of the stock and some means of attaching it to the carrier... when i look at the garand, it does actually remind me of a modified straight pull bolt action in a lot of ways.. and i do have the skills to design something like that..
i could buy a K31, get out my tools to measure every dimension of every part to backwards engineer a complete 3-dimension solid model of every part.. such as solidworks (though i prefer autodesk inventor)
anyway.. not to get off topic, but i find todays firearms to be rather bland and boring.. lets face it, they all have similar features, similar function, and most firearm today of any particular class is very much like another firearm of that class.. handguns for example, rare youre going to find something that isnt blowback for the small calibers.. but just about everything common, 9mm, 40S&W, 45acp.. damn near identicle.. revolvers again all follow a very similar pattern
i like the days when new guns were still being pioneered, look at the variety in different types of bolt actions alone we had in the early 20th century.. or when semi automatics first came around.. look at handguns like the luger, C96 mauser.. its boring how today we dont really see that variety in actual engineering so much
geeze.. just looked up some stripper clip prices online.. $6 each.. i got like 20 of them for $5 for my mosin nagant.. i guess it would be pretty cost effective for someone to make their own.. thought those clips were metal?.. im reading that they are made from some kind of composite or resin.. shouldnt be hard to duplicate.. could hand-carve a re-usable mould i could lay the fabric over, pin it down, and then coat with resin and maybe another layer of fabric.. kind of like making a fiberglass or carbon fiber, but cheaper fabrics should work.. yeah, that sounds pretty doable
barn, your mention of a semi auto conversion intrigues me, that would be fun to try out.. maybe an M1 garand style op-rod including the gas system and the return spring, a little inletting of the stock and some means of attaching it to the carrier... when i look at the garand, it does actually remind me of a modified straight pull bolt action in a lot of ways.. and i do have the skills to design something like that..
i could buy a K31, get out my tools to measure every dimension of every part to backwards engineer a complete 3-dimension solid model of every part.. such as solidworks (though i prefer autodesk inventor)
anyway.. not to get off topic, but i find todays firearms to be rather bland and boring.. lets face it, they all have similar features, similar function, and most firearm today of any particular class is very much like another firearm of that class.. handguns for example, rare youre going to find something that isnt blowback for the small calibers.. but just about everything common, 9mm, 40S&W, 45acp.. damn near identicle.. revolvers again all follow a very similar pattern
i like the days when new guns were still being pioneered, look at the variety in different types of bolt actions alone we had in the early 20th century.. or when semi automatics first came around.. look at handguns like the luger, C96 mauser.. its boring how today we dont really see that variety in actual engineering so much
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Ignition Override
Member
You might consider buying an FR8. Converted from the large-ring 8mm Mauser. These look like, but are much stronger than the FR7 conversions
(from 1890s' 7mm Mauser actions).
The new Ruger "Scout Rifle" seems to have copied certain aspects of it.
Any similarities might be just a strange coincidence.
(from 1890s' 7mm Mauser actions).
The new Ruger "Scout Rifle" seems to have copied certain aspects of it.
Any similarities might be just a strange coincidence.
barnbwt
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"geeze.. just looked up some stripper clip prices online.. $6 each.. i got like 20 of them for $5 for my mosin nagant.. i guess it would be pretty cost effective for someone to make their own.. thought those clips were metal?.. im reading that they are made from some kind of composite or resin.. shouldnt be hard to duplicate.. could hand-carve a re-usable mould i could lay the fabric over, pin it down, and then coat with resin and maybe another layer of fabric.. kind of like making a fiberglass or carbon fiber, but cheaper fabrics should work.. yeah, that sounds pretty doable"
Where are you seeing them for 6$? Lowest I've seen recently is about 10$ when auctions end, and all retailers are plumb out.
The clips were made of heavily waxed cardboard, I'm guessing something with a higher melting point than candle wax, though. The metal lips glued/attached somehow are made of tin, a very malleable metal which won't fatigue crack from flexing as fast as aluminum or steel, and can easily be bent with fingers. As popular as these guns are getting, I'm actually astounded no St. Marie or someone else isn't making new clips. They're actually faster than the box magazines if you practice with them.
"but i find todays firearms to be rather bland and boring"
Waste some time and learn how the Madsen LMG works; it's a recoil-operated Martini Henry. Just about everything works different than you're used to (pivoting extractor, non-reciprocating bolt, side-charging magazine, crank instead of charging handle, etc.)
http://www.forgottenweapons.com/light-machine-guns/madsen-light-machine-gun/
TCB
Where are you seeing them for 6$? Lowest I've seen recently is about 10$ when auctions end, and all retailers are plumb out.
The clips were made of heavily waxed cardboard, I'm guessing something with a higher melting point than candle wax, though. The metal lips glued/attached somehow are made of tin, a very malleable metal which won't fatigue crack from flexing as fast as aluminum or steel, and can easily be bent with fingers. As popular as these guns are getting, I'm actually astounded no St. Marie or someone else isn't making new clips. They're actually faster than the box magazines if you practice with them.
"but i find todays firearms to be rather bland and boring"
Waste some time and learn how the Madsen LMG works; it's a recoil-operated Martini Henry
. Just about everything works different than you're used to (pivoting extractor, non-reciprocating bolt, side-charging magazine, crank instead of charging handle, etc.)http://www.forgottenweapons.com/light-machine-guns/madsen-light-machine-gun/
TCB
el indio
Member
Years ago,I bought a 6.5x55 Swede. It was included in the deal for a Remington Model 11. It had been "worked on" by who knows. The barrel was shortened and parts of the stock had been shortened. I had a sporter barrel installed and made it into a scout rifle. It is my semi custom project. Shoots good,but I am going to install a better scope. Let you know how that works.
jason41987
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well barnbwt, in fairness those clip prices i found were all out of stock, so likely an old website.. also by the sounds of it theyre not too difficult to make.. as i said, if i had a nagant id probably go the composite fabric and resin route.. cheap though, maybe a really cheap canvas and some epoxy, anything thatll harden (even BLO if you wanted to go a more natural route).. i dont think it would be hard to make a wooden mould for them either.. could mass produce those clips for myself with no problem
and i dont care what everyone else says, but i like clips, they really are pretty fast for reloading especially something like that K31 clip, which id imagine to be quite fast.. no need to remove a magazine, and in most cases clips are so cheap theres no need to collect them or carry them around as you go, they weigh so much less, and in the case of those K31 clips they seem to protect he bullets too
a big part of me wants that K31.. but the part of me that likes anything german and WWII tells me to get a k98k mauser, another part tells me that mauser would be cheaper in the long run, easier to find parts for, easier to find ammo for, and easier to repair.. while another part in response to that is saying... but what fun is that?
and i dont care what everyone else says, but i like clips, they really are pretty fast for reloading especially something like that K31 clip, which id imagine to be quite fast.. no need to remove a magazine, and in most cases clips are so cheap theres no need to collect them or carry them around as you go, they weigh so much less, and in the case of those K31 clips they seem to protect he bullets too
a big part of me wants that K31.. but the part of me that likes anything german and WWII tells me to get a k98k mauser, another part tells me that mauser would be cheaper in the long run, easier to find parts for, easier to find ammo for, and easier to repair.. while another part in response to that is saying... but what fun is that?
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
I know you're thinking about a bolt-action, but for some reason the word Hakim kept running through my mind every time I read through this thread.
Probably because you like 8mm so much.
Since Ian has been so kind as to post something relevant today, I'll link to it: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=734921
Hey, at least consider it!
Probably because you like 8mm so much.
Since Ian has been so kind as to post something relevant today, I'll link to it: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=734921
Hey, at least consider it!
Edarnold
Member
OK, if we are going to go completely off the rails, with mention of the Hakim...
May I add to the mix one of the very few rifles I would put on a par with the K31 for old time workmanship, clever design, and practical shoot ability. And in your choice of calibers, including the desired 8x57. I had one of the Egyptian contract guns many years ago, the exterior was decent, but the bore had some pitting down the left side from being left on the Sinai sand for awhile before it was picked up. Still shot any surplus ammo it was offered without a hitch, and the accuracy was not bad. The stock design is one of the best of the WW2 era designs, comparable for comfort to the Garand (IMHO). And, of course, it is stripper-clip loaded, with the Mauser clips that you don't have to make your own ( wow, is English really my native language?) Oh, and really decent sights, if you don't mind a peep instead of tiny notches that start getting invisible as you get older.
To see this wonder of the age, and the surprisingly reasonable prices the common ones are going for, go to Gunbroker.com, and search on FN 49.
Another choice added to the stew...
May I add to the mix one of the very few rifles I would put on a par with the K31 for old time workmanship, clever design, and practical shoot ability. And in your choice of calibers, including the desired 8x57. I had one of the Egyptian contract guns many years ago, the exterior was decent, but the bore had some pitting down the left side from being left on the Sinai sand for awhile before it was picked up. Still shot any surplus ammo it was offered without a hitch, and the accuracy was not bad. The stock design is one of the best of the WW2 era designs, comparable for comfort to the Garand (IMHO). And, of course, it is stripper-clip loaded, with the Mauser clips that you don't have to make your own ( wow, is English really my native language?) Oh, and really decent sights, if you don't mind a peep instead of tiny notches that start getting invisible as you get older.
To see this wonder of the age, and the surprisingly reasonable prices the common ones are going for, go to Gunbroker.com, and search on FN 49.
Another choice added to the stew...
jason41987
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those hakims are actually kinda cool, what i think of when i see them though is a VZ58 on steroids.. it looks so much like the vz58 action.. how much would i expect to pay for a hakim, or FN 49?.. lets say not in a high grade collector condition.. but maybe more of the shooter condition, or something that may need some work?.. i will say these are interesting alternatives to another rifle i was actually planning on saving up a lot of money for, the M1A
my title does say military surplus.. though my initial post said bolt action, im open to semis as well, would be nice to have something that could fill the role of the M1A i was considering, but at a lower cost and give me a good restoration project too.. problem with the hakim is that in my experience with egyptian equipment is they havent always been the highest of quality, and with a gunbroker search ive found they are pretty cheap which makes me wonder why?..
that said with the money i WAS thinking of buying an M1A with ive been toying with the idea of getting a german G43.. seeing some in banged up condition for around $1200 i think i could bring back to life but that wouldnt be for atleast a few more years and i was looking for something more immediate.. so yeah, anything you think you could tell me to sell me on one of these semi automatics, id be interested
and you guys will probably think im crazy.. but i did study mechanical engineering for a couple years, and have studied long and hard dozens of blueprints on a technical level, and since barnbwt mentioned K31s being easier to convert to semi auto (and as i stated it would only need a garand-like op-rod attacked to the carrier to do so, ive actually started studying the mauser design to determine if it was possible to create a bolt/carrier that could work with the mauser action
and though i do REALLY love the M1 garand, its also very common, almost everyone i know has one and i like to be different.. so by all means suggest any semi automatic you want.. just know this first, the #1 reason i stick with a good bolt action is i find they make a stronger, more reliable workhorse of a rifle capable of a level of power, penetration, and range not possible with todays latest in "tacticool".. so if a semi you know of can offer all of that and, with work and good ammo, atleast 1MOA, then ill give it huge consideration
my title does say military surplus.. though my initial post said bolt action, im open to semis as well, would be nice to have something that could fill the role of the M1A i was considering, but at a lower cost and give me a good restoration project too.. problem with the hakim is that in my experience with egyptian equipment is they havent always been the highest of quality, and with a gunbroker search ive found they are pretty cheap which makes me wonder why?..
that said with the money i WAS thinking of buying an M1A with ive been toying with the idea of getting a german G43.. seeing some in banged up condition for around $1200 i think i could bring back to life but that wouldnt be for atleast a few more years and i was looking for something more immediate.. so yeah, anything you think you could tell me to sell me on one of these semi automatics, id be interested
and you guys will probably think im crazy.. but i did study mechanical engineering for a couple years, and have studied long and hard dozens of blueprints on a technical level, and since barnbwt mentioned K31s being easier to convert to semi auto (and as i stated it would only need a garand-like op-rod attacked to the carrier to do so, ive actually started studying the mauser design to determine if it was possible to create a bolt/carrier that could work with the mauser action
and though i do REALLY love the M1 garand, its also very common, almost everyone i know has one and i like to be different.. so by all means suggest any semi automatic you want.. just know this first, the #1 reason i stick with a good bolt action is i find they make a stronger, more reliable workhorse of a rifle capable of a level of power, penetration, and range not possible with todays latest in "tacticool".. so if a semi you know of can offer all of that and, with work and good ammo, atleast 1MOA, then ill give it huge consideration
krupparms
Member
The Ishapore 2A1 is a great rifle for a project! If you can find one at a good price! I love that nice action & 10 rds of .308 make this a powerful weapon to begin with. These guns have had some good after market stocks & other accessories made for it. They make good pickup rifles. These are rifles that I am always looking for at a good price as they are good shooters also!
jason41987
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i looked at some videos of the hakim and the FN49 on youtube.. the hakim i wasnt too fond of.. had a very akward method for using stripper clips, and pushing forward to catch the carrier and then pulling back to open the action seemed a bit unnecessary.. the FN-49 looks really nice though, i kinda like.. biggest concern i have with tilting-bolt rifles though is what happens when the ledge the bolt locks against becomes worn.. because it will wear out and apparently thats an easily removed and replaced part that upon inspection didnt look too difficult to fabricate either.. so it addressed that issue
you guys are making my decision so much harder.. but atleast progress is being made
you guys are making my decision so much harder.. but atleast progress is being made
Edarnold
Member
Well, since I put my oar in...
Checking what is available on Gunbroker in FN 49, I found the going price for what appear to be decent Egyptian contract guns around $700. There is a particularly crisp specimen at $950, which also has the uncommon receiver cut for the issue scope base ( http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=376547559 ). This gun also has a decent example of the bayonet, which has always been an uncommon accessory. By the way, the Egyptian contract was for about 70,000 guns, which is why when they came in as surplus equipment the prices were fairly low.
I wasn't prepared to find new barrels, with all the gas fittings, offered for $100 ! If Jason is worried about wearing out the barrel, this the cheapest insurance of any military piece.
The thing about rifles like the FN 49 is that they come available from existing collections, there are no more in warehouses overseas. When you see one you like, get it, because you may not see another in a long time. I remember a couple of years ago seeing a pristine Swedish M38 rifle on the last day of a gun show, closing out for $225. I've never seen another since in that fine condition, and if I did it would be three times the price. New guns like the M1A ( blessed be it's name, I love mine), it will always be around. The vintage rifle that light your fire will be available when you find it.
Checking what is available on Gunbroker in FN 49, I found the going price for what appear to be decent Egyptian contract guns around $700. There is a particularly crisp specimen at $950, which also has the uncommon receiver cut for the issue scope base ( http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=376547559 ). This gun also has a decent example of the bayonet, which has always been an uncommon accessory. By the way, the Egyptian contract was for about 70,000 guns, which is why when they came in as surplus equipment the prices were fairly low.
I wasn't prepared to find new barrels, with all the gas fittings, offered for $100 ! If Jason is worried about wearing out the barrel, this the cheapest insurance of any military piece.
The thing about rifles like the FN 49 is that they come available from existing collections, there are no more in warehouses overseas. When you see one you like, get it, because you may not see another in a long time. I remember a couple of years ago seeing a pristine Swedish M38 rifle on the last day of a gun show, closing out for $225. I've never seen another since in that fine condition, and if I did it would be three times the price. New guns like the M1A ( blessed be it's name, I love mine), it will always be around. The vintage rifle that light your fire will be available when you find it.
jason41987
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i dont know about the FN 49 though.. i doubt theyll ever be as accurate, or reliable as an actual bolt action, but thats true for just about any semi when you add things like gas systems to the mix, i might just continue saving up for the G43 and let that be my semi automatic.. though if i REALLY wanted to i could probably custom-build a slightly longer receiver and use saiga 308 parts and build an rifle on the AK platform (ive built a couple AKs before so im well familiar with them).. but i think ill just stick with the simplicity and reliability the bolt actions offer.. besides, with enough practice working the bolt quickly and without losing a target will become like second nature
jason41987
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that FN-49 reminds me a lot of the FAL.. i read a lot of the features of the FN-49 are borrowed but one thing i like more on the FN 49 is the right side reciprocating handle.. which is what im most used to.. my favorite rifles to fire.. garand/m1a, AKs, various bolt actions, all of which are operated from the right side with reciprocating handles
however, im not going to order online.. im going to prefer to buy something of this age in person where i can see it for myself.. so ill check out some gun shows, local auctions, and maybe put an ad into craigslist and see what i can come up with locally in terms of the FN 49, K31, or K98K mauser.. if i can find an FN-49 for $500 or less, i may just go that route
however, im not going to order online.. im going to prefer to buy something of this age in person where i can see it for myself.. so ill check out some gun shows, local auctions, and maybe put an ad into craigslist and see what i can come up with locally in terms of the FN 49, K31, or K98K mauser.. if i can find an FN-49 for $500 or less, i may just go that route
barnbwt
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The FAL is the more efficient offspring of the FN49; it the last of the elegant battle rifles. The FN49 is the years-ahead-of-its-time super weapon that was narrowly kept out of the hands of advancing German lines as the designer fled Belgium with the blueprints. As expensive as it was to make, it was tons easier to machine than the German equivalents, while a more effective package overall. With an extra two rounds, internal mag, and adjustable gas, it was technologically superior to the M1 Garand (though hunting ammo is still a tad hot for it even at the "openest" gas setting). About the only thing that makes it inferior to even modern rifles, is the lack of a detachable box magazine and long action chamberings.
Which the Argentinians promptly fixed by modifying the rifle to use box magazines and the NATO 308 cartridge. Mags are still plentiful for some reason, though expensive, and the rifles run ~1000$ (not bad for a statelier FAL)
I would avoid the FN49 and Hakim, simply since you said you were looking for a project gun. Neither is readily modifiable, and both are becoming scarce enough it is a value-losing proposition to do so (no parts kits, either). They are rapidly going the way of the SVT40, and far more deserving (SVT's are cool and have history, but they really aren't anything special mechanically; their high value stems solely from the import ban)
"and though i do REALLY love the M1 garand, its also very common, almost everyone i know has one and i like to be different.. so by all means suggest any semi automatic you want.."
Can do
May I present, the Beretta BM59 Truppe-Alpini;
It is an M1 Garand re-designed to take 20rnd 308 box magazines, but with almost total part-interchangeabliltiy with the M1 Garand, unlike the M14 (which was basically a fleecing of the military industrial complex
). Beretta made new receivers for the folding stock model, which accepted stripper clips (these were still intended to be clip fed; one mag per rifle), but a regular 'ol Garand receiver can be modified to work as well (only with K31-style clips that need no guide, or extra box mags ).
The magwell flanges are cut back, the internal en-bloc rails cut/ground away, an opening for a bolt-catch made, and some other minor fitting --but that's it. A different (straight) op-rod is needed, as is a barrel with a closer gas-port. Luckily, both are available, as are all the other parts needed for the rifle (Sarco, standardparts.com). Parts kits are still around on Gunbroker occasionally, and mine at least was in great condition. They're expensive for "scrap metal" but it's possible to finish one of these for under 1300$ easy, and not lose value in the process because that's the going rate for any 308 semiauto.
I am working on my build right now (obviously), and the folding stock variant is somehow both compact and handy; unthinkable for a semiauto 308. It reminds me of an M1 carbine folder (no I am not kidding). Finished, the shorter-barreled folding rifles clock in at under 9lbs, less if you build it to take aluminum mags (FAL?) and remove the very effective but massive tri-compensator (that's 1.5lb right there). Overall length is a bit over 30" with the comp removed. Once I head-space the short-chambered repro barrel with a precise (as opposed to .mil loose) reamer, this rifle should have superb accuracy.
For even greater commonality with the Garand, Sarco sells BM59E kits; a variation that actually was a conversion for existing stores of M1 Garands. These use a cut-down Garand op rod, cut down and rechambered barrel, modified receivers, and a modified stock. Not as cool as the folder, but the Sarco kit is basically ready to go once you mod one of their Springfield Armory surplus receivers.
"I found the going price for what appear to be decent Egyptian contract guns around $700"
Wow. Last summer the price was ~450$ and barrels ~30$ on Gunbroker, even. I guess word finally got out on these. Hakims/Rasheeds were also super cheap for the longest time, but I think they finally dried up.
It is incredibly unlikely you will find an FN49 locally unless you live in a very big metro area; there simply aren't that many guns out there, and fewer owners who wish to sell them. Aside from the 8mm Egyptians, which are getting scarcer every day, the other calibers only show up on Gunbroker one or two at a time, usually. Don't be afraid to buy online, just be sure to get the info you want up front, and insist on a nominal inspection period. I pounced on my Luxembourg contract 30-06 at 600$ last year, and couldn't be happier
TCB
Which the Argentinians promptly fixed by modifying the rifle to use box magazines and the NATO 308 cartridge. Mags are still plentiful for some reason, though expensive, and the rifles run ~1000$ (not bad for a statelier FAL)
I would avoid the FN49 and Hakim, simply since you said you were looking for a project gun. Neither is readily modifiable, and both are becoming scarce enough it is a value-losing proposition to do so (no parts kits, either). They are rapidly going the way of the SVT40, and far more deserving (SVT's are cool and have history, but they really aren't anything special mechanically; their high value stems solely from the import ban)
"and though i do REALLY love the M1 garand, its also very common, almost everyone i know has one and i like to be different.. so by all means suggest any semi automatic you want.."
Can do
May I present, the Beretta BM59 Truppe-Alpini;
It is an M1 Garand re-designed to take 20rnd 308 box magazines, but with almost total part-interchangeabliltiy with the M1 Garand, unlike the M14 (which was basically a fleecing of the military industrial complex
). Beretta made new receivers for the folding stock model, which accepted stripper clips (these were still intended to be clip fed; one mag per rifle), but a regular 'ol Garand receiver can be modified to work as well (only with K31-style clips that need no guide, or extra box mags ).The magwell flanges are cut back, the internal en-bloc rails cut/ground away, an opening for a bolt-catch made, and some other minor fitting --but that's it. A different (straight) op-rod is needed, as is a barrel with a closer gas-port. Luckily, both are available, as are all the other parts needed for the rifle (Sarco, standardparts.com). Parts kits are still around on Gunbroker occasionally, and mine at least was in great condition. They're expensive for "scrap metal" but it's possible to finish one of these for under 1300$ easy, and not lose value in the process because that's the going rate for any 308 semiauto.
I am working on my build right now (obviously
), and the folding stock variant is somehow both compact and handy; unthinkable for a semiauto 308. It reminds me of an M1 carbine folder (no I am not kidding). Finished, the shorter-barreled folding rifles clock in at under 9lbs, less if you build it to take aluminum mags (FAL?) and remove the very effective but massive tri-compensator (that's 1.5lb right there). Overall length is a bit over 30" with the comp removed. Once I head-space the short-chambered repro barrel with a precise (as opposed to .mil loose) reamer, this rifle should have superb accuracy.For even greater commonality with the Garand, Sarco sells BM59E kits; a variation that actually was a conversion for existing stores of M1 Garands. These use a cut-down Garand op rod, cut down and rechambered barrel, modified receivers, and a modified stock. Not as cool as the folder, but the Sarco kit is basically ready to go once you mod one of their Springfield Armory surplus receivers.
"I found the going price for what appear to be decent Egyptian contract guns around $700"
Wow. Last summer the price was ~450$ and barrels ~30$ on Gunbroker, even. I guess word finally got out on these. Hakims/Rasheeds were also super cheap for the longest time, but I think they finally dried up.
It is incredibly unlikely you will find an FN49 locally unless you live in a very big metro area; there simply aren't that many guns out there, and fewer owners who wish to sell them. Aside from the 8mm Egyptians, which are getting scarcer every day, the other calibers only show up on Gunbroker one or two at a time, usually. Don't be afraid to buy online, just be sure to get the info you want up front, and insist on a nominal inspection period. I pounced on my Luxembourg contract 30-06 at 600$ last year, and couldn't be happier
TCB
jason41987
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you know, im really not that concerned with box magazines.. i actually like clips more.. i know most people believe detachable magazines are a must have, but theyre almost as easy to reload, so much cheaper, and weigh a lot less.. and i really do like the garand en blocs as well, its literally probably my favorite semi automatic of all time.. in fact, im constantly asking myself, why dont i already have one?
in fact.. why dont i just forget about getting saving up for an M1A or G43 to be my semi automatic of choice, and go for the garand?.. doesnt matter if theyre common, theyre common for a very good reason, so yeah.. im going to do that.. my next two rifles will be an M1 garand, and a bolt action of some sort
thing is, id like to make as many of my large rifles share the same caliber as i can.. i dont want to have to stock up on 30-06 for a garand, 8mm mauser or 7.5x55 for a bolt action, guns become more useful to me when i have ammo for them, and the best way for me to have a rather large supply of ammo for them is to need the fewest types of ammo i can. so ill probably end up with a mauser and a garand, either convert the garand to 8mm mauser, or the mauser to 30-06.. or try to see if i can find a barreled receiver of a 1903 springfield in need of a complete restoration back to military form.. only problem is the 1903s are REALLY expensive
in fact.. why dont i just forget about getting saving up for an M1A or G43 to be my semi automatic of choice, and go for the garand?.. doesnt matter if theyre common, theyre common for a very good reason, so yeah.. im going to do that.. my next two rifles will be an M1 garand, and a bolt action of some sort
thing is, id like to make as many of my large rifles share the same caliber as i can.. i dont want to have to stock up on 30-06 for a garand, 8mm mauser or 7.5x55 for a bolt action, guns become more useful to me when i have ammo for them, and the best way for me to have a rather large supply of ammo for them is to need the fewest types of ammo i can. so ill probably end up with a mauser and a garand, either convert the garand to 8mm mauser, or the mauser to 30-06.. or try to see if i can find a barreled receiver of a 1903 springfield in need of a complete restoration back to military form.. only problem is the 1903s are REALLY expensive
LAGS
Member
Your best bet if you want to rebarrel a surplus rifle to the same caliber as your Garand is to go with the Mauser 98 full size action.
They rebarrel to 30-06 nicely and only need just a little modification to the front of the magazine box to fit the 30-06.
That is unless you can find a Colombian Mauser that was built in 30-06 to start with.
They rebarrel to 30-06 nicely and only need just a little modification to the front of the magazine box to fit the 30-06.
That is unless you can find a Colombian Mauser that was built in 30-06 to start with.
jason41987
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LAGS, what about taking a 1903 springfield action for $150, adding a parts kit, new barrel and a stock made myself and rebuilding a 1903 springfield back to issues condition and configuration?
barnbwt
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Booooo! Lame!
I suggested the BM59 since it's about as hard to build as a Garand, and probably cheaper if you go the BM59E route. If you're set on clips, though, there probably is no finer primarly clip fed auto-loading rifle than the M1.
You know, that same logic is why everyone tried to hoard 223 at the same time (and 9mm, and 308, and 7.62x39, etc.). Swiss never peaked up or became unavailable during the Panic, nor did 30-06 --not that you should prioritize around it. And technically, if you have "enough" ammo for each of your rifles, you end up with the same amount of ammo regardless of the number of "identical" calibers, since all are consumed/shot at the same rate. Pay me no mind; I'm just trying to justify reloading for 30-06, 308, 7.5 Swiss, 8mm, and (if the Savage 99 gets any cheaper at the LGS) 300 Savage
. Might as well throw 7.62 Cetme, 7.5 French, some random Jap/Carcano rounds, and x54 in for good measure Don't sweat the K31's caliber; just buy the rifle and a crate of 480 rounds for ~600$ total. Should keep you busy for a good bit, and you can decide whether to buy another two crates to keep you busy for a good bit longer after that. The milsurp is more than ample for you to hone your skill on; likely better than anything you could produce yourself, and there are so many match-shooters who love these rifles that brass will always be available (as well as 308 bullets).
Sounds like this undertaking warrants a revision to determine what you're really after (practicality, project, precision, or pfun
). "Scope creep" always tempts me when I make a decision like this, so it helps to go back to the beginning, sometimes . I think "BREN" which leads to "UK59" which leads to "DShK" and then I have to hit myself in the head with a hammer to go to sleep TCB
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