military surplus rifle for a project?

[jason41987]

exactly what im looking for is easy to explain.. first, i want a project, something to do in my free time during this winter, i havent much to do since i moved here from another state recently and the kind of project im most interested in is restoring an old mil surp from old, beat up, to like new. back to its issues condition

ill probably still get something like the K31, the M1895, and other interesting milsurps later on, but first, i need something thats going to serve a purpose.. something thats going to be useful for more things than just one, but of the rifles im going to spend most my time practicing with, i want them to share a common cartridge, something i can put a lot of time and effort into developing good hand load recipes for.. i dont as of right now have that one rifle cartridge i really completely support.. i have a nagant in 7.62x54R but i hate the rifle, and i hate the cartridge and because of this i have little to no motivation to shoot it or reload for it

so if im going to pick a cartridge to get behind and support, the best way for me to do that would be choose a cartridge ill have a lot of use for, something that can be chambered in multiple rifles, this leads me to 30-06 vs 8mm mauser, i think 30-06 MIGHT be the better cartridge due to a broader range of bullets available for it (such as hornadys 208 grain a-max with about .650 BC) but that 8mm has more power.. i need to run some ballistics calculations on the two and i really like hornadys 170 and 180 grain .323 bullets so at the end of the day im probably going to chose 8mm mauser.. which leads me to the K98K for my bolt action, and the FN-49 as my semi

 

[jason41987]

i just found some online hand load recipes for the two.. taking the muzzle velocity and bullet weight, and using the ballistic coefficients from hornadys website for same type bullets.. the .30-06 gained a slight power edge over the 8mm mauser at about 800 yards, however it also had considerably more drop at those same ranges, so 8mm mauser has more power close range, less drop long range over the 30-06.. id give an edge to the 8mm mauser even based on limited options in 8mm bullets.. so i think im going to go 8mm mauser for the cartridge to get behind, and with that, reinforce the K98K and FN-49 as my next two purchases

 

[LAGS]

@ Jason41987
The Springfield is nice.
But when you say a stripped action, think of all the parts you have to buy like the bolt, the magazine ant little nick nacks to get it to work.
The mausers can be still bought Complete with Bad Barrels and wood and you have something to start with.
Barrels in most calibers are more Plentiful and a lot cheaper, plus can be bought Pre chambered short fo headspacing can just be done with a hand reamer.
The springfield isn't that easy, and you most likely will have to have it done, if you have a bad barrel.
The M-95 can not be made in 30-06 and .308 is even pushing it.
I have a Turkish Mauser 98 that is a small ring barrel on a large ring action that I rebarreled to 25-06 by re-threading a Large ring barrel to small ring threads.
That rifle will work in 30-06 also with a large ring barrel rethreaded .
Those rifles are still pretty common and cheap.

 

[Merle1]

not exactly butchering it if im just doing a caliber conversion which is just a barrel change for a lot of them.. but even if i was going to keep the original caliber id probably still want a newer, better barrel.. a lot of those rifles were made quickly without much quality control

the other reason is i find myself trusting bolt actions more and more than the modern tactical semi autos.. i have an AK-74 and the one id be more likely to grab in any situation would be the bolt action.. more power, more penetration, more range, more accuracy, and i feel they have a better balance and often point better too.. and this is my mosin nagant that i otherwise cant stand for other ergonomic issues.. so having one really good bolt action i can completely trust and rely on would be more like a companion.. my go-to rifle than just a wall hanger or something to target shoot with

but the problem is, the work i plan on putting into one and the amount of practice i plan to do, firing in something not even made anymore like for example 7.5x55 swiss is just going to hinder me, as i just wont be able to afford the ammo or even the reloading components to practice as often hense the conversion to 308 or 30-06

Perhaps you should look for an action only; that way you aren't butchering anything.

That's what I did, so I have a clear conscience!

 

[barnbwt]

Bolt Thrust Calcs in Regards to Cartridge Selection in a Steyr M95 (or others)

50 Alaskan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_Alaskan)
From Wiki (not the best source for load data )
Pressure: 40,000psi
Base Diameter: .553in (my assumption for thrust area on the bolt-face)
-Area: .240in^2
Calculated bolt thrust: 9605.5lb

8x56R, the "original" chambering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8x56r)
Pressure: 51,500psi
Base Diameter: .494in
-Area: .192in^2
Calculated bolt thrust: 9868.9lb

8mm Mauser (Greeks/Yugos rechambered their M95s to this) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8mm_mauser)
Pressure: 57,000psi
Base Diameter: .470in
-Area: .174in^2
Calculated bolt thrust: 9887.3lb (hope those lugs had a +20lb safety factor)

45-70(the round I plan to rechamber to) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/45-70)
Pressure: 43500psi(taken from limit for 450Marlin, since SAAMI wussed-out the 45-70)
Base Diameter: .505in
-Area: .200in^2
Calculated bolt thrust: 8711.2lb (yawn...yeah right)

308 Winchester/NATO
Pressure: 62,000psi
Base Diameter: .4709in
-Area: .174in^2 (not assuming a ruptured cartridge dumping load over the entire bolt face)
Calculated bolt thrust: 10797.891lb --that's a ~9% over the original, and a much higher pressure which will rupture primers easier; bad mojo here, but probably won't blow up (on the first shot, anyway )

30-06 (I think the length here may be a tad too long for the Steyr)
Pressure: 60200psi
Base Diameter: .471in
-Area: .174in^2
Calculated bolt thrust: 10484lb (note that all those rechambered Mausers are also operating well above their factory-spec design loads; obviously those actions have the margin for it, as proven by so many successful rechambers. It's not to say the M95 can't carry more thrust, but there is no available data suggesting you can get away with it safely)

Apart from the inferior gas-handling characteristics (which are alleged, since I haven't yet seen a kaboom M95 to compare with "acceptable" rifles like the R700 or Mauser), the bolt design and materials appear no weaker than any other two-forward-lug design out there. The lugs are far larger than the Garand, for example, and made of similar (if not identical) steel. A careful tester/kaboom-er could probably work up loads and determine where the rifles let go, and determine a "working maximum" for custom hot-rod loadings or chamberings, like Clark did with the CZ52 years back. But for a hobbyist, going beyond the known pressure/bolt thrust limits of any design is a bad idea. The Steyr was designed for the new smokeless powders being deployed, but was still built along the "slow and heavy" school of thought which keeps pressures/bolt thrust lower than the modern hi-efficiency cartridges, which is why we have no data for its performance with higher psi's.

I'd bet an M95 with the back of the bolt-sleeve sawn off and now-exposed firing pin struck by an AR FCG hammer would be plenty strong and safe in 308, but since there is no evidence anyone has tried it and been successful, I make no guarantees . It'd also be even easier to convert this to auto-loading (remember, you'll need a semi-auto trigger group first before you hook up the op-rod )

TCB

 

[LAGS]

I am sorry.
When I mentioned the M-95 I was speaking of the Chilian M-95 ot the turkish M-95 small ring actions.
I have not done any work with the steyer 95's since we just shoot them as they came with surplus ammo.

 

[jason41987]

lags, i think he was talking to me as i mentioned having a bit of an attraction to the steyr 1895 rifle.. i also like the krag-jorgensen rifle but that certainly isnt up to what im looking for, probably safest to group the M1895 steyr with that as rifles that would be nice to have, but probably wouldnt see much use

lags, as far as the 1903 goes, i found some parts sets for the 1903 springfield that included everything but the receiver, the barrel, and the stock.. so it included the bolt, magazine, trigger parts, all the small bits and was only about $150 for the set.. so piecing one together isnt really that bad

but after looking at some ballistics charts im really liking the 8mm mauser with around a 170-180 grain projectile (i think K98Ks are tuned for 196 grains, so no telling how theyd handle a lighter bullet).. id imagine its hard to over-stabilize a bullet but too fast of a twist rate with too light of a bullet will probably reduce the FPS a bit, not really a big deal

so its true the egyptian FN-49 uses 8mm cartridges and is fed from stripper clips, but is there something different about the clips used in the FN-49 or were they designed to use standard mauser clips?.. if so then that would work out nicely.. i could store all of my ammunition on clips that could go into either one.. one type of cartridge, one clip, two rifles, one a highly accurate bolt action, the other a semi automatic, i think that would make a nice pair

 

[LAGS]

@ Jason41987
You cant go wrong with the 8mm mauser round.
I shoot 150 gr JSP bullets out of many of mine, and the rifles handle cast lead bullet loads just fine for some low cost practice.
I have had several, years ago that I took out to 8mm-06
You had to hand load them, but it is a Poor Mans Magnum.
The 180 or heavier bullet is great for Big Game, but the 150's are plenty accurate.
The 8x57 is not loaded in factory ammo anywhere near the cartridges full potential.

 

[jason41987]

yeah, im aware of how underpowered factory ammo is, but it doesnt concern me, i never planned to buy new factory ammo anyway unless its cheap and i was buying it for the brass.. my intention is to reload.. probably start out with a box of 100 brass casings.. nice to know cast stuff works well, would be good for cheap target practice

so, the WWII german 8mm ammo i believe was 196 or 198 grain?.. what did the FN-49 originally use?. and can these use cast as well?

 

[LAGS]

As long as the cast bullet load is strong enough to work the action, it will work fine.
But cast loads are usually only 1500 to 2000 FPS and relatively light for Semi autos.
You can push the lead bullets faster, or use different powders that will kick them up to the minimum pressure you need. but you cant use Wheel Weight lead at those speeds, Linotype lead is a must.
But all you are then saving is the relative cost of the bullet itself, and not the powder.

 

[jason41987]

but since the FN-49 had an adjustable gas system, i could turn the gas all the way off and use it as a straight pull bolt action if i wanted some really cheap plinking.. but i was looking online, may have been grafs or buffalo arms, but they sell 100x .323 198 grain FMJBT bullets for about $30.. not REALLY cheap, but a lot cheaper than buying new factory ammo, and better than both that and surplus in the end.. ill probably just use these for manufacturing my own ammo

my favorite reloading setting has always been the lee classic loaders.. simple, easy, i can put the kit into a bag and take it to the range with me to try out new loads on the spot.. but lee doesnt make them for 8mm mauser.. for .303 british and 7.62x54R, sure, but no 8mm mauser, so im pretty mad about that now

 

[LAGS]

@ Jason41987
I too still have the Lee Clasic Loaders, and I would do the same thing for Odd Calibers.
I would go to the desert for a weekend and take one box of ammo for my M N and still shoot all weekend.
But now I have dies and two presses, but still use the Lee Clasic Loaders from time to time.
In fact, I used one today to load up some 38 S&W's.
And I use the Lee Bullet molds to cast my own slugs, and the Lee lube sizers to size them and install the gas checks.

 

[jason41987]

so far everything i reloaded for i was able to get lee classic loaders for.. i could use a couple pieces out of it in common with a .30-06 kit, like the base you set the cartridge on.. but.. heh, almost tempted to see if i can find someone that can fabricate an 8x57mm die for a lee classic loader for me.. but ill probably be forced to start using their hand loader

 

[fpgt72]

I have a Lee turret press and it just has to be the best bang for the buck out there. I have used other much more expensive setups, Dillon and such....but for what I want to do at around $100 on sale you just can't go wrong. I have loaded 8mm on it as well and it is a non issue....only problem I have is when I go down to small stuff....sorry for the tangent.

If you can you might look at Arasaka action for your project....plenty of those got converted after the war to more American friendly cartridges.....in fact IIRC the US government did it to some at the start of the Korean war...could be getting my facts mixed up...happens in my senior moments anymore.

 

[jason41987]

ive already made my decision, thanks to barnbwt ive decided to go with a pair of rifles, the K98K mauser and the FN-49 semi automatic.. im thinking i might get the FN-49 first as it may be more practical for an every-purpose kind of rifle and the value of them are going to climb quicker

im just wondering if that FN-49 is going to be worth putting a lot of training and effort behind.. practice with it enough to be my personal MBR.. reloads are not going to be the most fantastic even with stripper clips

 

[LAGS]

@ Jason 41987
I dont see why you are worried about quick reloading of the rifles like going with strippers and detachable magazines.
It is Quality of shooting, not Quantity.
That is unless you are a firm believer in Accuracy By Volume, or the old stand by of, Spray and Pray.

One shot, One Kill.

 

[jason41987]

my experience with stripper clips, mostly with my mosin nagant is that they only sometimes work.. mauser clips may work better since they dont have a rim.. but, my experience with strippers just isnt so great

 

[Robert]

One shot, One Kill.

Even a average rifle shooter can lay down accurate, moderate volume fire. And if your one magic shot does not, for whatever reason, do the job? Then what, pack up and go home and hope the threat just loses interest?

I do agree that I'd not go with a stripper clip fed rifle, nor would I go with a 60+ year old rifle. But it is the OP's money and project and he may do as he likes. If I were him I'd pick up a decent FAL. But that is me.

 

[jason41987]

theres a few reasons id rather have an FN-49 over an FAL.. charging handle is one, i prefer a reciprocating right side charging handle.. its what im used to with AKs, garands, and bolt actions, never owned a rifle with a left side non reciprocating charging handle, so it would feel quite foregin to me

number two, i like the full wooden stock, i like the aesthetics of it.. especially if i were to carve my own where i could use my hardwood of choice, such as a figured maple or walnut like this http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm169/ggarrett1911/P1000547.jpg.. and i also prefer the feel of it as well.. and im not going to lie, if i carve my own stock by hand im going to make sure it looks absolutely gorgeous

and lastly, i dont mind stripper clips if they work right.. theyre a much cheaper way of quickly feeding ammunition, and if im going to put in a ton of range time, id rather save the money id spend on buying extra magazines and buy more ammo loaded onto clips

so there are three reasons id take an FN-49 over an FN FAL

 

[LAGS]

@ Jasom 41987
That is a very nice stock you sent the picture of.
That Tiger Striped Blank , in itself probably cost $300.00 if not more.
Do you have any experience making or inletting your own stocks from a Blank ?

 

[itsa pain]

I don't care what you think Ash. I know that the rifle would outshoot from a rest at 100 yards a model 700 CDL in 243 and a Model 70 in 30-06. I know that I started with a quality barrel , a Tikka, *gasp*, I reblued it professionally I recrowned it professionally , I glass bedded it and installed top of the line hardware, not ATI as you ignorantly implied.
Again, I am not a collector of milsurps, I could care less what an unmodified beat to hell Mosin brings or for that matter any sort of collectors piece.
I do care what I put into a project and what type of profit I pull out of it. Purported? I am surprised you can spell that word since you are oblivious to what a good sporter will bring on the market.
There are people out there beyond the sphere of collectors that will pay a premium for a well built sporter, despite if you can believe it or not.

You are right. Collectors as well as all the purists are real cheap and want to pay beans for your untouched "historical" mosin or most others

 

[itsa pain]

lags, i think he was talking to me as i mentioned having a bit of an attraction to the steyr 1895 rifle.. i also like the krag-jorgensen rifle but that certainly isnt up to what im looking for, probably safest to group the M1895 steyr with that as rifles that would be nice to have, but probably wouldnt see much use

lags, as far as the 1903 goes, i found some parts sets for the 1903 springfield that included everything but the receiver, the barrel, and the stock.. so it included the bolt, magazine, trigger parts, all the small bits and was only about $150 for the set.. so piecing one together isnt really that bad

but after looking at some ballistics charts im really liking the 8mm mauser with around a 170-180 grain projectile (i think K98Ks are tuned for 196 grains, so no telling how theyd handle a lighter bullet).. id imagine its hard to over-stabilize a bullet but too fast of a twist rate with too light of a bullet will probably reduce the FPS a bit, not really a big deal

so its true the egyptian FN-49 uses 8mm cartridges and is fed from stripper clips, but is there something different about the clips used in the FN-49 or were they designed to use standard mauser clips?.. if so then that would work out nicely.. i could store all of my ammunition on clips that could go into either one.. one type of cartridge, one clip, two rifles, one a highly accurate bolt action, the other a semi automatic, i think that would make a nice pair

Yes Jason I have an FN 49 and it does use mauser stripper clips and also the K98 bayonet

 

[jason41987]

lags, i used to build musical instruments.. carving guitar necks by hand using rasps and spokeshaves so im sure i could manage it, ill practice on cheaper wood first though of course

thing is, that would look great on a stock for a wall hanger.. not sure id want to put the time and effort into such a gorgeous stock to be dragged through mud or banged around.. i mean, i could put on an extra thick layer of tung oil or BLO (which highlight the grains as it soaks into the top layers of the wood)..so most scuffs and scratches will only be in that protective outter layer.. but theres always going to be a ding or a dent in the wood that wont be so easy to fix so id probably stay with unfigured hardwood, and find other ways to make it look awesome

 

[LAGS]

@ Jason41987
Starting off with a Less expensive peice of wood is a very good idea.
But could I suggest that you buy something like an old beat up 22 or something like that, and make a stock for it first.
That way you are killing two stones with one bird.
You get the practice using your tools, and you restore a simple rifle first.

 

[jason41987]

ive restored other rifles before, even built a couple AKs from scratch and theres nothing involved in the wood work that i didnt actually do prior as a profession.. although i dont actually own a .22, i really see no reason to have one.. granted, i do know some people that would like me to teach them the fundamentals of shooting and it definitely wouldnt be a good idea to start them out on something firing 8mm mauser or 7.62x54R i think 5.45x39mm in my AK-74 (which im STRONGLY considering converting to 5.56mm) would be plenty light enough and cheap enough for that purpose