Militia Raid

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" think its one of those cases where the left-wing liberal element has come in and taken over a gun board."

No, it appears that only some of us have bothered to read the original documents written by the Founding Fathers. Others here have attempted to redefine the word militia to suit their view of the world as they think it should be and it only makes them look uninformed and cheapens their cause. According the Founding Fathers, a militia is not an independent group of armed people. You can find the references in earlier posts and go read them if you like.

John
 
My problem with private non-state-controlled citizen militias is that you would get little warlord clans popping up with a local strongman. They would be a threat to the local neighborhood and surrounding areas. Remember the "Justus township"? That is the kind of thing that I worry about when I hear about people organizing their own militia without state oversight.
 
According the Founding Fathers, a militia is not an independent group of armed people.
If this is true - and that's a big if - I think our Founding Fathers were wrong on this issue.
 
Where in the article did it say that the guy did anything irresponsible? Did he hurt anyone? If he'd gone down to the local Walmart and started shelling the parking lot then everyone here would have agreed that he should be locked up. He didn't. He made some inanimate objects. He wasn't doing burnouts or anything else stupid with them. He just had them. I'd guess that nearly everyone here owns a gun or two. We're all in the same position. We all have the power to do evil. Should the government lock us all up? Like you said:where do you draw the line? More importantly, WHO gets to draw the line. There are plenty of folks who would lock us all up just for owning any guns at all. Dare I name Rosie O'Donnel and her ilk? They look at us as criminals. It ain't that bad, yet, but we're all just 1/4" of barrel from being criminals to the BATFE. Never forget that.

You have the RIGHT to keep and bear arms. You are one of "the People". It is your natural, Constitutional right which is inherent to you as an individual, NOT granted by the government. You're a free citizen of the United States and if you're an adult it's your decision to make. Feel free to abdicate that if you have neither the bucks nor the balls but trying to emasculate everyone else out of fear borne of jealousy is morally wrong.
 
You have the RIGHT to keep and bear arms. You are one of "the People". It is your natural, Constitutional right which is inherent to you as an individual, NOT granted by the government. You're a free citizen of the United States and if you're an adult it's your decision to make. Feel free to abdicate that if you have neither the bucks nor the balls but trying to emasculate everyone else out of fear borne of jealousy is morally wrong.

Apple a Day, many people already gave away this right.

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=233656
 
Back to the original post, The man was NOT arested for forming a militia.
He was arested for aledged violation of the NFA. He is openly chalengeing the NFA as unconstitutional.
From reading News reports in his area, and the Arkansas constitution, It would appear he was otherwise legal and open. He is openly chalenging an unconstitutional law.
I wish him the best of luck.
 
Jeff White

Excellent, then it's agreed that there are multiple venues (as stated by others earlier) to participate in an official militia, which the subject in question could easily have done, and thus he would be guaranteed the right to keep and bear arms. And even if he were not officially in a militia his American birthright grants him the right to keep and bear arms, including cannons. And for those reasons the arrest, detention, search and seizure of the subject's property on the grounds that he possessed firearms is an unjust act.
 
What restrictions does the state and federal power over militias necessitate on freedom of association, speech, or right to keep and bear arms

Arguing that this man has the right to run around and play soldier in the woods due to the freedom of association and RKBA is a different argument than claiming this man is part of the original militia as envisioned by the Founders. Which argument are you making?

As to restrictions, at the very least, I would argue that giving the State the sole authority to appoint officers of the militia and authority to train is a meaningless provision of the Constitution if any random guy can create his own opposing militia. Under the definition you propose, MS-13, the Crips and Bloods are as much militias as any random group of men in Arkansas.

The Founders also wrote in provisions in the Constitution to suspend habeas corpus in the even of rebellion. Their discussions in the federalist papers clearly show they appreciate the practical problems of allowing bands of armed warlords to form outside the authority of the democratically elected governments. Shays Rebellion happened in 1787 after all...

Second, you are quoting the section that descrbes the unorganized militia. This is not the organized militia which trains, drills, and is subordinate to the state. The unorganized militia is the pool from which the organized militia is formed. The unorganized militia has an individual right to keep and bear arms apart from the organized militia precisely so it can be a source of that pool.

This does not mean though that the select elements of the unorganized militia get to organize, create their own independent structure, select their own officers and establish an organized militia independent of the state. States may allow such behavior (and Arkansas may be one of those states); but it isn't a right protected by the federal Constitution.

Finally, let's look at some of the state constitutions of the original 13 colonies....

North Carolina: [T]he people have a right to bear arms, for the defence of the State; and, as standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military should be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power (1776).

Pennsylvania: That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the state; and as standing armies in the time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; And that the military should be kept under strict subordination, to, and governed by, the civil power (1776).

Vermont: [T]he people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State -- and as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military should be kept under strict subordination to and governed by the civil power (1777).

Virginia: That a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.

So how do you propose that the military should remain in strict subordination to civil power if private citizens have an unlimited right (through freedom of association and RKBA) to organize as separate militias unauthorized by the state or civil power?
 
Crips, Bloods, alQaeda cells, KKK, Mafia, Black Panthers, Aryan Brotherhood

All legitimate militias?

Look, I resent being made to feel like a gun-grabbing commie because I might not subscribe to the belief regarding militias that some would like to be the only "politically correct" one on this board.

Let me ask this of the "militia purists." Under your view, a group of Muslim extremists could band together, call themselves the Ohio Militia, acquire all manner of arms, and train to attack the prevailing government in order to install their view of a legitimate theocratic government? If not, why not?
 
Shades of blue and grey

I've read 159 posts so far in this thread.

I've the "right" to bear arms.

I don't have the "right" to invite several combat vets over to my place to practice Infantry squad tactics in my 100 plus acres of woods.

I don't have the right to march around with my veteran friends when armed even if they also have an "individual right" to bear arms, and even if it's just on my own property.

I already know I can't march armed in a parade with my fellow veterans.

I kinda perceive a logical disconnect. :what:

I guess shooting and tactical training schools are legal because they are "organized" or are they...
 
I've read 159 posts so far in this thread.....

I don't have the "right" to invite several combat vets over to my place to practice Infantry squad tactics in my 100 plus acres of woods.

Ditto. So when are people going to bring up private security corporations,
aka private military companies?

Then it's ok for you and your friends to get together as long as you're
incorporated and have a contract with the government. :D
 
Bartholomew Roberts
So how do you propose that the military should remain in strict subordination to civil power if private citizens have an unlimited right (through freedom of association and RKBA) to organize as separate militias unauthorized by the state or civil power?

From the guy who hasn't given a straight answer yet? I'd say forget it, Otherguy Overby is correct. If you see two guys with arms, and one seems to show deference to the other, toss them both in jail.

But seriously, there is no way to reconcile armed civilians and a standing army. As soon as the first civilian buys a rifle the standing army instinctively launches a coup, they can't help themselves. You are correct, free individuals associating is irreconcilable with the existence of a military.



Kentak

Let me ask this of the "militia purists." Under your view, a group of Muslim extremists could band together, call themselves the Ohio Militia, acquire all manner of arms, and train to attack the prevailing government in order to install their view of a legitimate theocratic government? If not, why not?

Because the US constitution is good, and people attacking a constitution-following gov't are bad-guys, while people attacking a constitution-ignoring gov't are good guys. So you see, if your Muslim extremists succeeded in their coup, and they announced the constitution null and void, THEN the militias would get together and overthrow the Muslim Extremists.

Clear?
 
Hi, all, Newbie Dave here.

I find myself in awe as to how far this thread has expanded because of an irresponsible news article. There was no data. Machine gun raid. Were any machine guns found that were illegal? What were the illegal guns that were found? What was the result of the other raids? NO DATA! Totally irresponsible reporting. It was more like a photo op than a raid. "BATFE Flexes Muscles, Gun Owners Quake in Fear. Story at 11:00." How ridiculous is towing a cannon? Please! It was a show of force to keep people in line and the media were accomplices.

Now, Bartholomew Roberts,

I can see where you are coming from and in a perfect world the state of Arkansas would be taking responsibility for organizing and maintaining militias. It isn't and seeing as how, as you pointed out, we currently live with the danger of having not only a standing Army but Air Force and Marines, which the Constitution clearly states is to last no longer than two years, don't you feel it behooves the people to band together and organize their own? As long as these citizen militias are not bothering anybody, what is the problem?

Since when does the Citizen fall under the jurisdiction of the Federal Govenment? You brought up the Federalist papers. Isn't there a section in there where the people were not to have arms inferior to that of the military so as to be able to defeat insurrection or a coup? Maybe I'm thinking of one of the many decisions by Justices of the Supreme Courts. I know it is written somewhere and it's because of those decisions that the actions of the BATFE and the agency itself are illegal and Unconstitutional as well as all the laws passed by the States limiting our ability to arm ourselves as well as the military. That includes a 'freakin' cannon, by the way. They don't load or fire themselves so they are basically, innert memoribilia. Some citizens collect army tanks. Who's to say they can't? This political correctness is going to kill this country. I think the idiots in California will try to make sure all law abiding citizens keep their guns in a time-locked safe inside a concrete bunker beneath the house and the ammo in a bunker under the garage. They must really be that stupid or that cowardly. Meanwhile, they surround themselves with their own militia (bodyguards with automatic weapons). :cuss: Did anybody else notice how quickly the Feds moved to protect themselves and their buildings after 9/11? We can fend for ourselves though. Rant, rant, rant, blah, blah, blah, etc.

Does anybody have an update on the original story? What laws did Mr. Fischer break? Was the County Sheriff there to make the arrest? BATFE does not have jurisdiction in the State of Arkansas and the County Sheriff is the highest LEO in the county, in a perfect world you know.

We have all been lulled into this mindset of being a US citizen and having big brother take care of us. Well, big brother is now ordering us around and trying to run our lives. Our schools taught us that our leaders were honorable men who really cared about our country and we bought it. Now we're finding out that our teachers lied because most of our representatives aren't even trying to pretend to be moral, honorable or righteous. We need to hire better help I guess.

I could go on forever. I won't.

Dave
 
Otherguy Overby said:
I've the "right" to bear arms.

Yes, you have a right to bear arms both in defense of yourself and in the common defense of the nation.

I don't have the "right" to invite several combat vets over to my place to practice Infantry squad tactics in my 100 plus acres of woods.

You do not have a legal right that is protected by the Constitution to do this. The state government can prohibit this if it wants to because a very key concept in our nation's form of government is that the military powers are subordinate to the elected civil government.

I don't have the right to march around with my veteran friends when armed even if they also have an "individual right" to bear arms, and even if it's just on my own property.

Depending on the facts in that particular circumstance, you may or may not have a constitutionally protected legal right. In the context of you and your friends creating your own militia, no you do not have that right. This is a throwback to the early days of this country when drilling and parading were part of actual military tactics. Most of those laws were written back then (indicating how old this concept is) and were designed to make sure military power was subordinate to elected civil authority.

I already know I can't march armed in a parade with my fellow veterans.

Again, you probably can in most places. It just isn't a constitutionally protected legal right. So the state can require you to obtain a permit or follow certain regulations while parading. What you can and cannot do is subject to state authority.

The key part to take away is that the federal government has left these decisions to the state governments. What legal rights* you have to form a militia of your own accord, depend on your state consitution and government.

*I use the term "legal rights" to avoid getting entangled in a semantic discussion of inherent God given rights and those outlined in law. As much as I receive sheer rapture from seeing some additional party jump in to point out this distinction for the 5,000th time, it tends to sidetrack the conversation and really isn't a point I can argue since I have no evidence from God to the contrary.

I kinda perceive a logical disconnect.

Where do you perceive the logical disconnect to be?

Lucky said:
If you see two guys with arms, and one seems to show deference to the other, toss them both in jail.

Reductio ad absurdum? Gosh, I haven't ever seen that argument on the internet before... how unsual.
 
Welcome to THR, Newbie Dave!

BATFE does not have jurisdiction in the State of Arkansas and the County Sheriff is the highest LEO in the county, in a perfect world you know.

Regarding BATFE jurisdiction, please cite an authoritative source.
 
davet916 said:
I can see where you are coming from and in a perfect world the state of Arkansas would be taking responsibility for organizing and maintaining militias.

I am not stating that this is a perfect world. I am saying this is the structure that the founding fathers built into the Consitution. It is what the law has always been since the founding of this country.

It isn't and seeing as how, as you pointed out, we currently live with the danger of having not only a standing Army but Air Force and Marines, which the Constitution clearly states is to last no longer than two years

No, that isn't what the Constitution says. When listing the powers of Congress it says:

"To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;"

This means that Congress may not appropriate money for a term of longer than two years in order to support a standing army. Congress does not do this. The Founding Fathers had just fought a war against the British that lasted longer than two years. Do you really think they meant to prohibit any standing army from existing more than two years?

don't you feel it behooves the people to band together and organize their own? As long as these citizen militias are not bothering anybody, what is the problem?

I'm not arguing either of those points. I already have my hands full just explaining the basic law that governs militias in the United States. I don't really have the rest of my life to explore the intricacies of those two questions.
 
This means that Congress may not appropriate money for a term of longer than two years in order to support a standing army. Congress does not do this. The Founding Fathers had just fought a war against the British that lasted longer than two years. Do you really think they meant to prohibit any standing army from existing more than two years?

Careful, you're treading back into that "spirit of the law" area where you had
to grudingly agree on what was meant by the Founding Fathers and what
kind of authority was under a PRC, a Partial Mob, and a Full Mobilization.
One of the founding concepts for this country was not having a large
standing army and certainly not one to maintain a global garrison. The
power to declare war was to be with Congress not with the Executive
Branch and a group of DoD lawyers who decide something one week and
something else the next and then re-cut the round hole so the square peg
will fit.

A large army is also not necessarily one in terms of how many soldiers
it has, but rather how it is able to multiply its force. Technology and the
destructiveness of weapons systems are an obvious part of this, but so
is the service support available.

Isn't anyone here even going to discuss Private Military Companies, our
government, and earlier precendents in history? No? Not aware of them?

Here's a start:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Band_(landsknechts)

All of this still comes down to citizens, arms, and who has the monopoly of
force within the state. We are reversing a trend in the USA back to what
we tried to escape in Europe. It's the road to serfdom.
 
I see many people here just continue to spew out what the law is. Very good. I know the law, Constitution and Federalist Papers too. But, there is no mention by these law reciters if they agree with the laws. Well, do you?

Do you feel that this one man who happen to own fully automatic weapons and and old style cannon was deserving of so many of our country's resources to bring to "justice". (Justice is in quotation marks because I feel an injustice was done here)

The frustration that many here have with you reciting the law over and over is that blindly following the law makes you a tool of the Government.
Think for yourself for a moment.
Did the guy in article commit an atrosity by owning a few firearms?
Tell us what you really think.....step out from behind "IT'S THE LAW" and explain to us how you really feel.
Many here are beginning to feel that some of the "staff" are not on our side. A little clarification may be in order.

Be careful of your pride on this one. I am offering to help you, not to attack you. Vanity may lead you to want to lash out at me. Please take "The High Road" on this one request.
 
i just finished reading all 7 pages of this thread, and have a few questions.

there are several things that are very troubling with this thread, especially if we go by what jeff white and Bartholomew Roberts are saying.

we have an individual right to keep arms in our house, but the minute we gather in a group, with the intent to practice and drill, we are subject to the whims of the state?

states have the power to stop you from doing anything useful with your second amendment right. sure, they say, i can have my guns, but you can't get organize with other people. obviously, we can all agree, that a single person is not going to be able to fight tyranny. indeed, even 500,000 people, scattered across the US, acting alone, will not be able to defeat tyranny and restore order.

and lets remember, the states aren't always on our side. they can be just as bad as the Fed gov.

you can have your guns, but you cant organize to fight a tyrannical gvt. the right to organize an armed group isn't such a hot-button issue, and many states could, and many have already, said you can't organize a militia outside of state jurisdiction. this pretty much renders, what most of you all consider to be, the main purpose of the 2-a (to make sure the govt doesn't get out of control, and to be able to fight it when it does) null and void.
 
TBL said:
Careful, you're treading back into that "spirit of the law" area where you had to grudingly agree on what was meant by the Founding Fathers

No I am pointing out to people who can't read the plain text of the Constitution what it actually says.

2ndamd said:
Did the guy in article commit an atrosity by owning a few firearms?

I haven't read the article; but I don't see too many Internet news articles that would give me enough information to know one way or the other whether the raid was justified. Read the recent Zug thread in L&P regarding how thoroughly the media fact-checks what they are told.

Many here are beginning to feel that some of the "staff" are not on our side. A little clarification may be in order.

You joined on October 2, 2006. How is it you happen to know that many here feel this?

Pirate Joe said:
we have an individual right to keep arms in our house, but the minute we gather in a group, with the intent to practice and drill, we are subject to the whims of the state

If you are intending to form a private miltia, then yes you are subject to state regulation. Of course, you can gather as a group to train with firearms and still not be forming a private militia. It is done all the time, even in states that have laws preventing private militias.

and lets remember, the states aren't always on our side. they can be just as bad as the Fed gov.

States are as bad as the people who select their democratically elected governments allow them to be. If you can't organize well enough to win an election, being able to form a neighborhood militia without state oversight is not going to save you.

you can have your guns, but you cant organize to fight a tyrannical gvt. the right to organize an armed group isn't such a hot-button issue, and many states could, and many have already, said you can't organize a militia outside of state jurisdiction.

If that is a concern, then the citizens of those states should work to change those laws. After all, I am sure you would agree it is a lot easier to fill out a ballot than it is to pick up a gun.
 
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator


Quote:
I don't have the "right" to invite several combat vets over to my place to practice Infantry squad tactics in my 100 plus acres of woods.

You do not have a legal right that is protected by the Constitution to do this. The state government can prohibit this if it wants to because a very key concept in our nation's form of government is that the military powers are subordinate to the elected civil government.

Somehow I don't think this is what the founders intended. Your statement leads me to believe you think that BOTH state and federal government can restrict this. Actually, if what you say is true, we couldn't even practice civil war re-enactments.
Quote:
I don't have the right to march around with my veteran friends when armed even if they also have an "individual right" to bear arms, and even if it's just on my own property.

Depending on the facts in that particular circumstance, you may or may not have a constitutionally protected legal right. In the context of you and your friends creating your own militia, no you do not have that right. This is a throwback to the early days of this country when drilling and parading were part of actual military tactics. Most of those laws were written back then (indicating how old this concept is) and were designed to make sure military power was subordinate to elected civil authority.

Please explain to me how one determines what's legal and what's illegal: Is it okay if we do this in civilian clothes, illegal if we wear surplus BDUs? Or only if we call ourselves a militia?

What about crew served weapons? At one time practice with ships of war and cannon (best rate of fire with a crew) were accepted for citizens. Now, according to you if a bunch of people get together to fire a cannon when it's not official and without government approval, it may be restricted and is not constitutionally protected.
Quote:
I already know I can't march armed in a parade with my fellow veterans.

Again, you probably can in most places. It just isn't a constitutionally protected legal right. So the state can require you to obtain a permit or follow certain regulations while parading. What you can and cannot do is subject to state authority.

OIC, I need a permit from the government to exercise a "right" and it is subject to some bureaucrat's opinion?
The key part to take away is that the federal government has left these decisions to the state governments. What legal rights* you have to form a militia of your own accord, depend on your state consitution and government.

Huh? "Rights" inalienable rights can't be restricted by the feds but may be restricted by states?

Quote:
I kinda perceive a logical disconnect.

Where do you perceive the logical disconnect to be?

I've been trying to explain... :)
 
I see many people here just continue to spew out what the law is. Very good. I know the law, Constitution and Federalist Papers too. But, there is no mention by these law reciters if they agree with the laws. Well, do you?
My personal opinion is that people have an inherent right to arms for their individual and collective defense. And I stated in post #60 that I believe that inherent right is recognized in the broadest possible terms in the Constitution. Subsequent laws and court decisions do not fully coincide with my views.

I also believe that any society naturally requires some regulation of personal rights (i.e. yelling "fire" in a theater). In post #129 I noted that society has decided to legally regulate the formation of private armies, which I happen to personally agree with because local warlords and democracy don't work well together.

The law does not always reflect my personal opinion, so I study the law to understand where differences lie. Knowledge of the law allows me to make informed decisions about my response to the law.
 
I think we would all still be pretty much in agreement here that the 2A was
meant so the state alone would not have a monopoly on force. It is to
reduce both common crime and put a check on state tyranny.

Some of us have more sesitive needles than others and I would have to say
I'm a canary in the coal mine when it comes to encroachment on civil
liberties by the state.

Is the state encroaching and restricting right now? Yes. This has been
and always will be a cyclical thing that imperfect (meat-flapping) humans are
going to deal with.

Are we at a point right now where the state threatens our very lives? No.
However, when it does, that is the very circumstance that will cause
the fomation of militias.

People can argue back and forth how close we are to that point. I have no
idea. Is it possible in my lifetime? You betcha. A good rule of thumb is to
see how many of the original Declaration of Independence grievances you
can honestly check off.

But quite frankly the situation often really doesn't turn into armed conflict
until your fellow citizens are dangling from barn rafters and others are being
loaded into cattle cars. Scale and speed are a different matter entirely.

The Founders said it best when it comes to the relations between people:

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the
most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by
repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act
which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free People.
 
you can have your guns, but you cant organize to fight a tyrannical gvt. the right to organize an armed group isn't such a hot-button issue, and many states could, and many have already, said you can't organize a militia outside of state jurisdiction. this pretty much renders, what most of you all consider to be, the main purpose of the 2-a (to make sure the govt doesn't get out of control, and to be able to fight it when it does) null and void.
The Constitution recognizes the right of the people to keep and bear arms, and separately grants the government authority to call forth the people and organize them for the country's defense.

Of course the government prohibits people from organizing for the purpose of fighting the government; it would be folly for government to facilitate the activities of would-be rebels. But the Founders were not deterred by the fact that King George did not issue a "Weekly Practice for Revolution" decree.

The people's right to arms remains and, with it, the inherent right for people to spontaneously choose to band together to fight tyranny, just as the Founders did.
 
I'm sure this is a very unpopular opinion, but it is mine.

I think the man in the article is a joke along with his so called militia.

wayne.gif


Just who and or what is this man going protect and exactly who is he going to protect them from? According to their official prayer, it's anyone that denies God, as they see it.

Their Prayer:

Almighty God, we acknowledge You as our Creator, our Savior, and our Benefactor, the Law-giver and Judge of all the earth. We call upon You this day as our Witness, that we desire to live peaceably with all men. However, those who have denied You, and have scorned and mocked You relentlessly, now wish to enslave us by their folly, and to cause the Divine Liberties that You have bestowed upon this nation to be reserved for Your enemies alone. We now ask for Your Divine pardon for our many transgressions, thus sparing us from Your Terrible Wrath. Should battle come, Lord, we ask You to join our ranks and lead us surely to Victory over those who have rejected You and have willingly chosen the pathway to ruin........ In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ we humbly pray........ Amen.

They also seem to be able to think they can implement justice as they see fit and according to their ethics and morality. They know what is right and what is wrong, just in case they decide you do not.

From their code:

The militia represents the very highest ideals in human morality, where every man and woman respects the life, liberty, and property of the individual and takes it as their duty to honor all humanity as entitled to justice before the law, having God-given, natural rights to life, liberty, and property, and that no one should be deprived of these unalienable rights without due process of law. The militia, then, acts to uphold and implement justice and secure the peace. Ethics and justice are the application of morality, and morality the knowledge of right from wrong.




Here's their headquarters. Wow, I sure see them stopping a tyrannical government. :rolleyes:

Hq.gif


Seems to me they're nothing but an excuse to play GI JOE. I agree with FM2Wildcat, I think they're going to cost us our guns instead of help us keep them. But I don't think that's what they're out for anyway.

And if they're even remotely effective and if they believe they are within their rights, why did they let the Feds come in and bust them? Why didn't they protect themselves from tyranny, which is their so called mission?

I'm not even going to weigh in on their rights or lack thereof, I'll let our good Mods handle that. But from what I can pick up from their website, I just think they're a joke. Maybe they're not a joke, maybe they just need a better website?

Wonder if these boys are theirs?

redneck_special_forces.jpg
 
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