Most accurate handgun platform...for noobs

[anothernewb]

a long sight radius 22 caliber is going to be the best for a total newb. something like a buckmark or smith victory or ruger 22/45. the long barrel versions of any of them. they all have decent (marginally okay in the rugers case) triggers, minimal recoil and can accept a red dot to make things even easier.

once they have that down, then moving to a 9mm 1911 of something like a CZ shadow 2 isn't a bad transition.

 

[Varminterror]

the gun is not the problem in these scenarios - the lack of training is the issue.

Yes, you’re correct. New shooters - indeed - DO lack prior training.

But contrary to your claim, as I nearly directly stated in my post above, indeed, if shooters aren’t shooting accurately, reducing the difficulty and complexity of the firearm they are holding has nearly unilaterally reduced their group sizes. I emphasized this above by the statements I made that these shooters failed a qualifying CoF with one pistol, then passed simply by changing to a more shooter-friendly pistol. Quite literally, they shot smaller because they simply changed pistols.

It happens in every form of shooting instruction I have offered - I shared on this forum this summer a few pics of the 11yr old son of a student at one of our long range classes. Not new to rifles, but he was struggling to shoot his dad’s Bergara 6.5 creed out to 300. I put him behind my rifle, removing recoil and improving the cheek weld by moving my cheek riser to fit his face, AND removing the stigma of high recoil he was feeling from his dad’s rifle, and he walked shots one at a time out to 1000 without missing.

Not wanting a 22LR pistol is fine. Misguided, but fine. However, the principle remains true, and largely seems to be the purpose of this thread entirely: grabbing a 1 7/8” 38spcl DAO revolver with a receiver-groove rear sight would certainly be a more difficult option to shoot well for a beginner than would be a G34 or 1911 with an RMR on the slide.

This mentality of “new shooters suck, so they just need more practice” is dumb. Adopt the philosophy: “new shooters suck, and learning everything all at once sucks, so devise training methods which advance the shooter’s skills progressively through segregated focus before integrated challenges”.

 

[reddog81]

Yes, you’re correct. New shooters - indeed - DO lack prior training.

But contrary to your claim, as I nearly directly stated in my post above, indeed, if shooters aren’t shooting accurately, reducing the difficulty and complexity of the firearm they are holding has nearly unilaterally reduced their group sizes. I emphasized this above by the statements I made that these shooters failed a qualifying CoF with one pistol, then passed simply by changing to a more shooter-friendly pistol. Quite literally, they shot smaller because they simply changed pistols.

It happens in every form of shooting instruction I have offered - I shared on this forum this summer a few pics of the 11yr old son of a student at one of our long range classes. Not new to rifles, but he was struggling to shoot his dad’s Bergara 6.5 creed out to 300. I put him behind my rifle, removing recoil and improving the cheek weld by moving my cheek riser to fit his face, AND removing the stigma of high recoil he was feeling from his dad’s rifle, and he walked shots one at a time out to 1000 without missing.

Not wanting a 22LR pistol is fine. Misguided, but fine. However, the principle remains true, and largely seems to be the purpose of this thread entirely: grabbing a 1 7/8” 38spcl DAO revolver with a receiver-groove rear sight would certainly be a more difficult option to shoot well for a beginner than would be a G34 or 1911 with an RMR on the slide.

This mentality of “new shooters suck, so they just need more practice” is dumb. Adopt the philosophy: “new shooters suck, and learning everything all at once sucks, so devise training methods which advance the shooter’s skills progressively through segregated focus before integrated challenges”.

That’s all true but the OP does not appear to be a new shooter and apparently wants a different full size 9mm. I’m replying based upon what the OP wrote. He explicitly says he doesn’t want a .22. He mentions a Beretta PX4, alien, HK VP7. Going from a gun that shoots 1” groups at 25 yards from a similar gun that shoots 3” groups isn’t make any noticeable difference if you shoot 6” groups at 7 yards.

Going to a easier gun to shoot is a logical option but realistically there aren’t many options out there that much easier then full size 9mms other than going to the .22 which he does not want to do. Going to large frame revolver in .38 Special would be a decent option.

 

[Varminterror]

the OP does not appear to be a new shooter

Might reread the post…

So lets do this - your are big head in your army and you got task to choose new handgun (even nonexisting if you can put it together with toadys technology and presented limits) for recruits wich never used gun

 

[someguy2800]

That’s all true but the OP does not appear to be a new shooter and apparently wants a different full size 9mm. I’m replying based upon what the OP wrote. He explicitly says he doesn’t want a .22. He mentions a Beretta PX4, alien, HK VP7. Going from a gun that shoots 1” groups at 25 yards from a similar gun that shoots 3” groups isn’t make any noticeable difference if you shoot 6” groups at 7 yards.

Going to a easier gun to shoot is a logical option but realistically there aren’t many options out there that much easier then full size 9mms other than going to the .22 which he does not want to do. Going to large frame revolver in .38 Special would be a decent option.

The spectrum of shootability is quite broad even within the narrow category of full size 9mm

 

[wesmonster]

In a full size 9mm platform I'd say HK USP 9mm.
Very soft recoil for a 9mm, and overall light for it's size.
DA pull isn't the best but very light & predictable in single action.

I know that's a pricey option, but mine is my most accurate shooter.
Also used to have a Canik TP9SA, the one with the decocker on the slide. Great accuracy, cheap to buy and one of the best triggers out of the box. I'd still have it but let it go in a trade to a friend, still running strong. The grip on the Canik was great as well, very slim an ergonomic and seemed to accomodate hands from tiny to bear paws.

 

[d'zaster]

G19 of G17

 

[d'zaster]

or

 

[murf]

for recruits wich never used gun,

glock 17

your recruits have to get highest posible accuracy per shot or per fast fired group of 5 or combined in first day without invidual training

everyone uses the brian zinns grip and pulls the front sight through the back sight with the trigger while front sight stays on the target. lots of dry-firing while on the range. no individual teaching necessary.

But it led to disscussion about witch handgun platform is most accurate for, lets say, untrained shooter.
Meaning which guns generally tend to be most new-shooter friendly in regards of accuracy per shot and per group (magazine, cylinder)

ruger mkII as noted in prior posts.

the ruger mkII is necessary (to eliminate recoil) for all shooters (handgun, rifle, or shotgun) to maintain the basics shooting skills and to diagnose any problems with one's shooting process.

luck,

murf

 

[P Flados]

For rank new military recruit type shooters, a reasonably accurate, very simple and easy to use gun with zero features that intimidate anyone will do best for the "one day training" scenario. Trigger and sights need to be good. You said most accurate or a fast fire thing. New shooters need to get accurate over multiple range sessions before they move on to anything fast so I am going to use your "or" to ignore the fast fire stuff.

I have been around rank new shooters before. Racking a stiff slide, recoil and the blast from a 9mm are all potential "problem causers".

I recently took my brother in law out for his first pistol shoot. I had previously worked up some reduced recoil loads (around 85% for velocity) for his recently acquired SA XDM 9mm. The gun had a nice trigger and it shot great for me. He was absolutely terrible with his new gun. He was not bad with my Lo Point that has a very good trigger and will shoot 9mm loaded down at the midrange 380 power level. He was even better with a LCRx 38 Sp with light target loads.

A Shield EZ in 380 sounds like it would be one of the better semiautos. I have not fired one, so I do not know if the trigger is decent.

My bet however would be a 6" 357 medium weight DA revolver with a very good SA trigger. Shooting would be SA and would use 130 gr FMJ 38 Special target ammo (military legal and all) with one of the new powders selected specifically to minimize muzzle blast. This going to be as close as you can get to near 9mm power and near 22 LR comfort.

 

[SDGlock23]

If it can't be .22LR then I'd vote for some type of 1911 or revolver. Without having to have tons of trigger time a 1911 trigger and single action revolver trigger really are the easiest to shoot well.

 

[Tcruse]

A .22 rimfire hands down. If there is simply no way to get one, then something like a .32 or .38 with wadcutters takes a distant second place.

I prefer a DA revolver for a beginner. It is the simplest of the common handgun actions, with no hidden cartridge to catch out a tyro. I also have found that some people are distracted by the snapping slide and flying brass, and so it's easier to begin without the added distraction.

Recoil makes the whole thing much, much more difficult. Trying to teach with a full power defensive cartridge will slow the learning curve by a factor. Trying to teach with something like .45 hardball is simply nuts.

The long hard trigger pull on most DA revolvers is much harder for a new shooter, also small revolvers always will have bad grips and there is no damping of the recoil like on a semi-automatic.

 

[Tcruse]

These are the things that make shooting more accurate:
1) Red/Green dot optical site (Holosun, Sig Remeo 0 or 1+)
2) good trigger, 3-5# consistent (Sig P-320, Sig P-365XL, Sig P-322, 9mm 1911, Canik)
3) Mild loads (e.g. Federal/S&B/Winchester 9mm rather than +p+)

 

[.38 Special]

The long hard trigger pull on most DA revolvers is much harder for a new shooter, also small revolvers always will have bad grips and there is no damping of the recoil like on a semi-automatic.

Outside of specialty guns, DA revolvers can be fired single action, and in such mode almost always have better triggers than do autos.

I didn't say anything about "small" revolvers.

"Recoil damping" is of no importance with a .22 LR.

 

[trackskippy]

The DA trigger isnt the monster a lot of people want to make it out to be either. Even beginning shooters can do well with it, especially if they are not told different.

Unless for some reason they cant pull the trigger, which, unless you have some physical issue that might be a problem, which shouldnt be a problem for anyone of reasonable fitness, youre actually doing them a disservice pushing the SA trigger.

 

[P5 Guy]

S&W Model 17 was my first handgun and the handgun I showed others how to shoot on.
It worked for me, might not be the best for everyone.

 

[someguy2800]

Saying someone should learn to shoot a crappy trigger first because everything else will be easy is akin to saying new skiers should go down double black diamonds first because all other hills will be easy after that. Maybe we should teach all the kids to drive in a peterbuilt with a 60 foot trailer and 18 speed trans.

 

[jmorris]

I remember years ago when I got my first XP-100, and my buddies all gave it a try at the farm. I was surprised (maybe even a little shocked) at how well everyone shot with it. Even with rifles they wouldn’t all shoot to the same POI because of holds and such but the pistol everyone shot well, even the ones that were not really “gun guys”. I don’t think I have fired any pistols that rival them in accuracy.

Noobs, I’d go with my Ruger mark II, it’s not more accurate but I can put 10 inside 3.5” at 100 yards with it and it’s cheap to learn with and has very little recoil and noise to distract new shooters from shooting well.

 

[trackskippy]

Saying someone should learn to shoot a crappy trigger first because everything else will be easy is akin to saying new skiers should go down double black diamonds first because all other hills will be easy after that. Maybe we should teach all the kids to drive in a peterbuilt with a 60 foot trailer and 18 speed trans.

Whats a "crappy trigger"?

I have and have had a ton of new and used handguns, most all of them with box stock factory triggers, and I can only think of one that was crappy when I got it, and that gun was a 1911 put together from junk parts. Take it back, two, forgot about the DA trigger on my CZ70.

"Crappy" is subjective and more often than not, simply a lack of experience and skill with anything other than what someone insists is all they can shoot well with. And I would say, if you cant shoot a factory trigger from one of the major makers without issue, SA, DA, whatever, its not the guns fault.

Ive helped more than a few people, with no experience with a handgun, who were sold DA revolvers (you know, beginners guns ) based on the opinions of others, to shoot them properly, in the manner the guns are meant to be shot for the use they were bought for. All but one of them were women, and none of them had any trouble shooting the guns DAO.

The best thing about shooting DAO is, a.) it forces the shooter to focus on the important things while shooting, the sights. And b.) it builds and maintains the necessary muscle tone and trigger control that is necessary to be able to shoot well.

A DAO shooter can usually shoot petty much anything they pick up and usually without complaint. Thats not usually the case with those who learned on tuned SA triggers.

And since we're using analogies, teaching a beginning shooter to shoot on a custom-tuned gun, is like teaching a baby to walk only using crutches.

And on another note, you see where not teaching kids to drive a stick has got us now. If you can drive a stick, the Peterbilt easy peasy, once you figure out the pattern.

 

[Varminterror]

Whats a "crappy trigger"?

In the qualified comparison of firearm triggers, whether you like it or not, long and heavy DA trigger pulls are “crappy.” Even the best DA trigger pull among all DA triggers is still a crappy trigger.

@someguy2800 stole my schtick when this ridiculous claim is made in these discussions - and unfortunately, it too commonly happens that SOMEONE always seems to be willing to say “if you learn on a DA revolver, everything else is easy.” Reinforcing the apt analogy someguy made - no other paradigm of education works that way, except boomers trying to drown their kids instead of teaching them to swim… education and instruction are most productive via fundamental progression. We teach addition and subtraction before we teach integration and derivation. We teach tackling form before we teach which step to read on a wide receiver when he’s coming into the pocket. We teach with training wheels and balance bikes rather than 1000cc crotch rockets.

And we don’t tell folks to carry a bowling ball and play trombone while they’re learning to ride a bike.

 

[someguy2800]

Whats a "crappy trigger"?

I have and have had a ton of new and used handguns, most all of them with box stock factory triggers, and I can only think of one that was crappy when I got it, and that gun was a 1911 put together from junk parts. Take it back, two, forgot about the DA trigger on my CZ70.

"Crappy" is subjective and more often than not, simply a lack of experience and skill with anything other than what someone insists is all they can shoot well with. And I would say, if you cant shoot a factory trigger from one of the major makers without issue, SA, DA, whatever, its not the guns fault.

Ive helped more than a few people, with no experience with a handgun, who were sold DA revolvers (you know, beginners guns ) based on the opinions of others, to shoot them properly, in the manner the guns are meant to be shot for the use they were bought for. All but one of them were women, and none of them had any trouble shooting the guns DAO.

The best thing about shooting DAO is, a.) it forces the shooter to focus on the important things while shooting, the sights. And b.) it builds and maintains the necessary muscle tone and trigger control that is necessary to be able to shoot well.

A DAO shooter can usually shoot petty much anything they pick up and usually without complaint. Thats not usually the case with those who learned on tuned SA triggers.

And since we're using analogies, teaching a beginning shooter to shoot on a custom-tuned gun, is like teaching a baby to walk only using crutches.

And on another note, you see where not teaching kids to drive a stick has got us now. If you can drive a stick, the Peterbilt easy peasy, once you figure out the pattern.

Crappy meaning that which makes accurate shooting more difficult, and thus requiring more experience and skill.

Yes, beginners generally lack experience and skill. You hit the nail on the head there.

I would generally agree that learning to shoot crappy triggers is beneficial to ones shooting ability, but only after they have a strong foundation of experience so they can tell what they are doing wrong when the variable of a difficult trigger is added. Just like you said, driving a peterbuilt is easy peasy AFTER you have learned to drive a stick. Driving a stick is easy peasy AFTER you have learned to drive a car. Driving a car is easy peasy AFTER you learned to drive the riding lawn mower. Driving the riding lawn mower is easy peasy AFTER you learned to drive a power wheels.

 

[trackskippy]

I suppose we have different experiences then. I havent found teaching most beginners to shoot DAO, as long as they had the strength to pull the trigger, and for the most part, thats never been an issue. Add some regular dry fire to the mix, and things only get better as muscle tone quickly gets better.

And as I always have to ask, for those of you who call a DA trigger crappy, how much do you actually shoot them that way, and if you do, why cant you shoot them well? Ive always found that when trying to shoot deliberate groups, I normally shoot tighter groups when I shoot my DA guns DAO, and that included the autos, so I really have to question what problems youre having that makes them crappy.

Or are you one who has to have a tuned, SA trigger in order to be able to shoot well? From my experience, thats usually where the complaints come from when this comes up.

If you teach someone to shoot DAO, they will be further ahead than someone who learns SA, and can much easier adapt to SA later, than those who do the reverse. And the reverse only becomes much more difficult down the road, as the caliber increases.

This is along the same lines as teaching beginners to shoot long guns from field positions than from shooting off a bench. Learn to do things right from the start, and that little extra work, pays dividends, even in the short run, and you will be way ahead in the long run.

 

[someguy2800]

I suppose we have different experiences then. I havent found teaching most beginners to shoot DAO, as long as they had the strength to pull the trigger, and for the most part, thats never been an issue. Add some regular dry fire to the mix, and things only get better as muscle tone quickly gets better.

And as I always have to ask, for those of you who call a DA trigger crappy, how much do you actually shoot them that way, and if you do, why cant you shoot them well? Ive always found that when trying to shoot deliberate groups, I normally shoot tighter groups when I shoot my DA guns DAO, and that included the autos, so I really have to question what problems youre having that makes them crappy.

Or are you one who has to have a tuned, SA trigger in order to be able to shoot well? From my experience, thats usually where the complaints come from when this comes up.

If you teach someone to shoot DAO, they will be further ahead than someone who learns SA, and can much easier adapt to SA later, than those who do the reverse. And the reverse only becomes much more difficult down the road, as the caliber increases.

This is along the same lines as teaching beginners to shoot long guns from field positions than from shooting off a bench. Learn to do things right from the start, and that little extra work, pays dividends, even in the short run, and you will be way ahead in the long run.

I don't consider all DAO triggers to be bad. They range from pretty good to horrible. Two of the guns I carry most frequently are my LC9s and lately my Kahr P40, which I shoot quite well. They both have what would best be described as a double action trigger since they are both long smooth pulls with no wall and a surprise break like a double action revolver. They are both very smooth with no grit or stacking and are about 4 and 5 lbs respectively. The LC9s has for me about the perfect pull weight and breaks in the right spot for my hands. The kahr out of the box is horrible for me because the trigger breaks so far rearward that I can't maintain sight alignment through the whole range of pull because my finger ends up at an awkward angle due to large hands. The pull is also also very long which prevents me from predicting where the trigger is going to break. I modified the trigger shoe, the trigger bar, and the sear on my kahr internally to reduce the total distance that the trigger needs to be pulled by about half, and moved the break point forward about 1/4" to be the same as my LC9s, and now I shoot it just as well as my LC9s without changing the pull weight at all. My tuned revolvers are relatively easy to shoot double action, and I do shoot them that way. They have like 6 lb double actions with polished internals, so a far cry from a economy grade snub nose with a 10 or 11 lb gritty double action. I do shoot them better in single action though. Lets not kid ourselves, there is a reason nobody is winning any bullseye matches with 10 lb double action triggers. Shooting is no different than any other endeavor, you learn basic skills before you learn advanced skills.

 

[someguy2800]

I'm not an instructor but I taught my nephews and a few of my friends kids to shoot handguns for the first time as well as a couple adults when they were over at my range. The gun I used was my buckmark micro bull. I give them about a 5 minute safety lesson of trigger discipline and muzzle awareness and what the buttons do, and then do 10 rounds of dry fire explaining the goal of follow through. Then 10 rounds of real ammo, 10 rounds of dry fire, repeat repeat, and let them to it with a box of ammo. After 20 minutes they are hitting 30 yard plates that their parents standing next to them haven't hit all day with their glock.

I think another reason its a good thing to start someone out with a target 22 is it teaches them right away that it is indeed possible to shoot small with a handgun and that they can do it. I've met a lot of people that don't think its even possible to hit a 4" target at 25 yards with a pistol until you show them. Shooting torso targets at 7 yards is all that a lot of people know or ever see. When you get someone to do it themselves it kind of cements it in their brain forever that whatever inaccuracy they see on the target is largely them, not the equipment, so the only way to shoot better is to suck less. My shooting goal in life is to be able to shoot my various handguns as well as I can shoot my buckmark, no excuses.

 

[trackskippy]

I dont normally shoot bullseye much any more, and this was not shot typical bullseye slow fire, but as fast as I could get the sights back on target at 10 yards. Its a couple of cylinders full of 45acp from my factory Model 25, and shot DAO. I probably could have closed that up a bit if I slowed down, but I havent been wired for slow fire bullseye for a number of decades now.



As I said, I dont shoot much bullseye, and these are shot differently than you would be shooting that style, in other words, no fixed aiming point (and actually, shooting "through" the suppressor using the dots as you cant see a traditional sight picture through the suppressor) and shot quickly, on presentation and in some cases doubles, but the first shots are all from DA and the bulk of the hits there.



Like the 25, these were shot quickly and DAO and again, using the "dots". This, and the one above were also at about 10 yards.


The main thing you have to get through any beginners head is, maintaining the sight alignment on target is the most important thing to focus on as youre shooting. The trigger is just the trigger and the second you start worrying about what its doing, your focus is off the sights.

If you want to specialize in a specific discipline, then it really doesn't matter what you do. You do what you do.

If you want to be versatile and be able to shoot pretty much anything well, handgun or long gun, or if you want to shoot more realistically beyond bullseye or plinking, especially if youre serious, and choose a gun that is DA, then you want to learn to shoot them properly. And if its a DA gun, that means DA.

Im not saying you should try and teach your 4 year old or 80 year old grandmas with arthritis to shoot DAO, my kids learned to shoot handguns on a Ruger MKIII at around 6, and onto a S&W Model 17 and a Model 10 in DA a couple of years later when they could realistically do so.

And beginners dont necessarily have to start out on 22's and SA. Ive had adults who didnt have the time to go through a long, protracted thing to get there, shooting DA snubbies, Glocks, SIG's, and a couple of other things, in an afternoon of focused shooting, and they were shooting pretty damn good in that short a time too, considering a couple of them had never shot a gun before. They werent going to be shooting bullseye matches, nor were they learning on bullseye targets, but they could make good solid hits on target on demand from about 5-7 yards when we were done for the day.