My 2 cents on bore cleaning (with more Teslong pics)

[243winxb]

Great barrel photos.

I was shooting loads with VV N140

All Vihtavuori powder have a decoppering agent. Must work better in a smooth, custom match barrel?

The barrel in photos may benefit from Tubb Final Finish Bore Polishing System? Something to test?

 

[Walkalong]

I am sure some factory barrels could benefit from proper lapping, but no way am I going to try to lap/polish a hand lapped match grade professionally chambered barrel. Not me.

 

[taliv]

I know some people who feel some of the big name bbl mfg half ass their hand lapping. So they take it upon themselves to further lap.
I haven’t really seen proof of improvement but they haven’t hurt anything either

 

[hps1]

I am sure some factory barrels could benefit from proper lapping, but no way am I going to try to lap/polish a hand lapped match grade professionally chambered barrel. Not me.

I'm reluctant to use final finish; did hand lap the factory BAR barrel, removing some pitting and tool marks. A few years back, a friend used final finish on a badly pitted 280 which had been a copper magnet. It cleaned better, shot fine, but as I recall he had a bit of velocity loss.

Regards,
hps

 

[Nature Boy]

All Vihtavuori powder have a decoppering agent. Must work better in a smooth, custom match barrel?

From what I understand that’s the new formulations. This is an older lot.

The barrel in photos may benefit from Tubb Final Finish Bore Polishing System? Something to test?

Might be worth trying. Sure won’t hurt anything


And completely off topic:

Geaux Tigers

 

[Skylerbone]

I’ve looked at the Tubb system for years with a curious eye, mainly due to his personal achievements (but always bearing those in mind as completely separate results). What I’d like to do is try oiling a barrel down then slugging it using soft lead and Bore Paste a few dozen times.

Unfortunately I no longer have easy access to a bore scope and frankly, I’m not sure any of my cob rough barrels would benefit much considering the depth of most machining marks. A hundred passes might show some promise but oh what a tedious task compared to a few swipes with any number of wonder chemicals.

I love the idea of consistency from shot to shot but honestly in my estimation the typical factory barrel will still offer far too much tolerance to be a 1-hole shooter, and I the same. If I were a better shot I would buy better barrels.

 

[Nature Boy]

Are you using the flexible cable they sell, or just running them through with a standard rod. They could just stick in the end of the rod.

they come with an adapter that screws into your rod to hold it

 

[JRadice45]

Not sure how you would do that. It’s important to distinguish between what carbon we’re talking about.

There’s the powder fouling that’s comes out easily and the hard carbon that gets deposited in the first few inches of the barrel due to the heat and pressure of combustion. This hard carbon is inert and hell to get rid of. It takes some mechanical effort to remove (brushing, bore past, etc). You can’t get rid of that and leave the copper. If you leave it alone the hard carbon/copper get laid down in layers and you end up with a real chore to get it out.

What I am talking about is the carbon that will come out using hoppes 9 bore solvent and a bronze brush plus cotton patches.

When that doesnt work I use Sweets 7.62 solvent to burn all the crud out and start over.

This is coming from shooting .223 and 308 bolt guns.

 

[Nature Boy]

What I am talking about is the carbon that will come out using hoppes 9 bore solvent and a bronze brush plus cotton patches.

When that doesnt work I use Sweets 7.62 solvent to burn all the crud out and start over.

This is coming from shooting .223 and 308 bolt guns.

Have you looked at it with a bore scope to see what’s coming out, and more importantly, what’s not?

 

[hps1]

Bore scope opens up a whole new world. Tale of woe to follow.

Regards,
hps

 

[Nature Boy]

BTW, I went ahead and ordered a set of Tubb’s Final Finish .358 bullets. Having pics of the barrel in its current state will give a good base line for what changes occur after using the system, in both appearance and cleaning effort. I also have enough targets and chrono data to be able to measure changes in performance.

 

[hps1]

I have no scientific reasoning behind my preference of hand lapping, just that (now with benefit of bore scope) I can have more infinite control over process than I could with simply firing a series of abrasive bullets blindly down bore. Looking forward to an evaluation of TFF based on actual pics and chrono comparison.

Now for the promised tale of woe, BS (Before Scope)

I've come to expect stellar accuracy from Savage rifles, based on my limited experience with five (IIRC) different Savage rifles. Therefore, I was surprised by the poor accuracy delivered by a like new .308 Scout. I consider it a personal challenge to squeeze the most accuracy from such rifles, usually with some success. This one, however, didn't like anything I put through it, including many different proven target handloads and even stooped to trying a box of factory ammo (Federal Match).

Since the rifle was pre-owned, and having experienced the propensity of my other Savage rifles to be very efficient at collecting copper/carbon fouling, while producing sub moa groups, I wondered if it had a carbon ring and proceeded to work in that direction (without benefit of bore scope).

All my usual chemical cleaning methods were used until clean white patches resulted, yet accuracy, at best, hovered around 2 moa, with an occasional 1.75 just to tease. The longer it dragged on, the more I was convinced it was hard carbon and the more determined I became to get it out.

Using JB Paste mixed w/Kroil on a patch on bronze brush, alternating w/some old Gold Medalion from smallbore days, I began scrubbing the bore.....for days. A dozen or more strokes/day, but patches kept coming out black.

About the time I was beginning to wonder if the black was metal, not carbon, Brownell's ran a special on Lyman Bore Scopes. I broke down and ordered one and my doubts were confirmed. I had rounded off the sharp edges of the lands w/the aggressive lapping.

Lapping with various abrasives can produce beneficial results, but I prefer to do so with benefit of a bore scope.

The good news is, that I did finally find one load the rifle likes and will still shoot sub moa 5 shot groups with 125 gr. NBT w/H4895 @ 2910 fps, fortunately a very effective bullet/load for a dedicated coyote rifle. Any faster and groups open up. These two groups are only 3 shots each to zero after mounting a different scope.


Regards,
hps

 

[redneck2]

I’d get one of those bore scopes but I’m afraid of what I’d find. At the price there’s little reason not to have one.

 

[d2wing]

Maybe more like a whole roll of pennies as it relates to the amount of copper in this barrel.

This is after only 15 rounds starting from a clean bore in my Browning BLR .358 win

View attachment 880529

Step 1. All my rifles start by getting a shot of Wipe Out foaming Bore Cleaner, which I let soak for 2 hours before doing anything else.

View attachment 880530

Step 2. I run a few 9mm Ramrodz Q-tips through the bore to clean out the Wipe Out residue. Here’s the after pics. It removes almost all the copper as you can see

View attachment 880531

Step 3. I use Bore Tech products and hit the bore with a few Ramrodz soaked in CU+2 to get any remaining copper. I follow that up with about 30 passes with a bronze brush and BT Carbon Remover. Finally I’ll run a few Ramrodz through the bore until I’m not seeing much of anything coming out.

View attachment 880532

Here are the final pics after I’ve called it good.

View attachment 880533

Here’s my cleaning dunnage in order

A patch I put under the muzzle catching the Wipe Out that shows it working on the copper.

1-3 Ramrodz pushing out the Wipe Out residue

4-5 Ramrodz with CU+2 (just a hint of blue)

6-13 Ramrodz used with BT carbon remover after brushing with bronze brush.

View attachment 880534

Note: I was shooting loads with VV N140, which is known to be a pretty clean burning powder. If this was Varget you can double what I’ve outlined above.

Wow. Thanks for posting. Great job cleaning.

 

[JRadice45]

Have you looked at it with a bore scope to see what’s coming out, and more importantly, what’s not?

I have, and i wasn't too concerned with what was left behind. I pay attention to the patches and when they come out relatively white I call it good. The proof is in the way the rifle shoots, not how clean the bore is.

 

[Gtscotty]

I just ordered the corded teslong bore scope today. I was intrigued by the excellent pictures in your last thread, but forgot to order one. Lately my RPR has started showing pressure signs with a load that used to be gtg. I gave the barrel a deep cleaning before this last trip with Hoppes Black and then Wipeout Accelerator and Patch-Out. After about 20 rds I was starting to see pressure again, I'm afraid I have developed a carbon ring (I'm using RL16, which is pretty dirty and apparently bad about forming carbon rings).

Ordered the bore scope when I got home, hopefully, in a few days, I'll be able to do more than guess.

 

[Gtscotty]

Finally got my new Teslong out and took a peek at my RPR bore... might have been a mistake, ugly pictures to come.

Working from the beginning of the leade and moving forward.


I'm guessing the are where the arrow is pointing might be a carbon ring? Or maybe it's just a portion of the leade, probably need to clean a bit more to tell.


Leade is chock full of crud.


A good bit of fire cracking at the beginning of the rifling, and the lands don't look great.




Further towards the muzzle things look better, still dirty though.


Barrel has about 1960 rds through it and is in bad need of a deep cleaning. These photos were after 50 rds at the range followed by ~10 patches of Boretech Eliminator with some interspersed nylon brushing.

I'll give it a few days of intermittent Boretech patches and soaking, hopefully with most of the crud out I'll be able to see the leade better.

 

[Demi-human]

Why are your pictures blue in comparison?
I have been on the fence about purchasing one.

 

[Gtscotty]

Why are your pictures blue in comparison?
I have been on the fence about purchasing one.

Not sure, I don't remember them being blue on the laptop screen in real time, I only noticed the blue when I went back to look at the captures. The lights are variable brightness, I might not have had them up enough, also could have been the windows 10 camera capture function that made it look blue.

 

[Nature Boy]

I bet there’s a color adjustment on the camera program.

What caliber are you shooting in that RPR?

ps. That is a carbon ring in your first pic. You may also want to put a fired case in there, come in from the muzzle end and see where the mouth falls

 

[Bartojc]

I’d get one of those bore scopes but I’m afraid of what I’d find. At the price there’s little reason not to have one.

My thoughts exactly. I almost ordered one right before the holidays. I really want one, but afraid of what I'd find. I think my rifles are pretty clean but I bet they are not
Of course I bet none of mine have round counts in the thousands outside of the AR's

-Jeff

 

[bfoosh006]

Finally got my new Teslong out and took a peek at my RPR bore... might have been a mistake, ugly pictures to come.

Working from the beginning of the leade and moving forward.
View attachment 881738

I'm guessing the are where the arrow is pointing might be a carbon ring? Or maybe it's just a portion of the leade, probably need to clean a bit more to tell.
View attachment 881744

Leade is chock full of crud.
View attachment 881745

A good bit of fire cracking at the beginning of the rifling, and the lands don't look great.
View attachment 881746
View attachment 881747
View attachment 881748

Further towards the muzzle things look better, still dirty though.
View attachment 881749

Barrel has about 1960 rds through it and is in bad need of a deep cleaning. These photos were after 50 rds at the range followed by ~10 patches of Boretech Eliminator with some interspersed nylon brushing.

I'll give it a few days of intermittent Boretech patches and soaking, hopefully with most of the crud out I'll be able to see the leade better.

What caliber ? and what ammo / reloading powder ?

Also, I will say again, those VFG pellets , Kroil , and JB Bore Polish work great ( earlier post in this thread ) Being able to adjust the "fit" of the pellets helps dramatically.

 

[ms6852]

I must say that my shooting groups settle down after a few rounds but I am not sure if it is the bore returning to shooting accuracy or me settling down - maybe both.

Doesn't make sense to clean the bore so much than I do fouling shots to get it back to the accuracy I want. Some time I feel like a dog chasing its tail.

 

[Legionnaire]

My scope should arrive from Amazon tomorrow. Looking forward to seeing what I find in a couple of bores.

 

[Nature Boy]

I'm guessing the are where the arrow is pointing might be a carbon ring? Or maybe it's just a portion of the leade, probably need to clean a bit more to tell.

On second look, back the arrow up a bit and it would be pointing at the carbon ring. For example, here’s a before and after cleaning in one of my .308s