My Disagreements with the Rabbi

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PILMAN, I called it "Old Testament" for anyone reading the text who's exposure to Judaism is nill. I use Torah or Tanakh depending on the book I'm discussing, generally.

Run&Shoot, in Judaism, a Rabbi is more a spiritual guide than a religious leader. While Rabbis definetely have much say, because of their studies in a Yeshiva (think of it as a Jewish seminary), they don't have the final word. Only G-d does. And that is one of the biggest things I love about Judaism.

Now, there is liturgy (whole bunches of it), blessings (there is a blessing for everything), and certain fairly widely accepted notions about our faith, but no authority on Earth.

As for me, as I said, I will talk to him again. As I said, he is a Jew, and it would be hypocritical for me to simply judge him without a little more talk on the matter. I owe him that much.
 
Mordechai, not much new I can add here but I think you are on the right track by educationg your rabbi. My wife and I are Orthodox Jews, and at our shul here in L.A. a number of the guys own guns. But Ortho Jews tend to be conservative not just in religious observance and lifestyle, but also politically. The history of the Reform movement is closely tied to the political left - and all the narishkeit that goes along with it.

With that said, it's heartening to hear from the many proud, Jewish gun owners here. To my Christian friends who ask why so many Jews and liberal and anti-gun, it's something that saddens and bewilders me :banghead: . I find myself having more in common politically and socially with my conservative Christian friends at times then I do with liberal minded Jews. But we're a family and family looks out for each other, even when that family member is stupid and gets themselves in a pickle.
 
mordechaianiliewicz, I think my non-denominational Christian church that I grew up in is more like your description than the Catholic description last page. No liturgy or blessing though (prayer for blessing). Christian practices do vary widely in many cases. You mentioned Haman in the original post. My pastor once suggested he may be related to a king that King Saul was commanded to kill and instead let go. Can't remember the name. Not gun related I guess.

I don't understand anyone's stance against guns. Not just Jews. You can look at the history of the US and see there is a need to own at least a gun or two for self defense. Historically, individual lives are pretty cheap despite how most like to see it. We live in a pretty stable and safe time and place where anti's have the luxury of their bad ideas.
 
mordechaianiliewicz and sniper,

Thanks for the background info on Judaism. Every Christian inherits a rich history, tradition, and relationship with God from our Jewish brethren. It is great to see faithful Jews take up arms. It seems to me that every minority would want to be well armed to protect themselves and their property.

It is probably the same in many religious groups, that is that a good number somehow believe it is OK to protect yourself, but wrong to prepare for it through firearm ownership, training ad practice. I know many of my fellow Catholics look down on gun ownership and preparation for self defense. Still, there are a fair number who do hunt and enjoy firearms collecting and shooting practice. It too comes down to the more religiously conservative/orthodox tending to be more likely to be favorable to guns. My liberal Protestant relatives are sort of anti-gun (OK with others owning guns but vote for radical gun grabbers); while my conservative Protestant brother, father and uncles are more in the gun nut camp.

Great discussion. I have enjoyed the many perspectives from different religions and sects. Maybe we can all keep America armed, together. :)
 
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My father, who was Jewish, brought his WW II military aggression back home with him. He landed at Anzio and fought up through Italy as a mortarman and rifleman. He was determined never to be a pacifist and never to fulfill the stereotype of the passive, turn-the-other-cheek, meek Jew. He always volunteered for hazardous duty in the service to demonstrate that not all Jews were sheep.
My father had little or no tolerance for the passive nature of many U.S. Jews.
He always stuck to his guns when it came to the cliche "Never again." He instilled in my brother and I the wherewithal to push back when pushed, to not tolerate bullies.
He went to local Neo-Nazi rallies carrying his little 38 spl (to protect himself, not to shoot anyone), even before he had his permit. He even chased down (with his 5'7", 235 lb body) two teenagers who had beaten and robbed an elderly couple at a store next to his work and caught one of them in the calf with a meat hook (he worked at a wholesale meat factory).
As a person, he was highly flawed (and we all have our flaws), but never abandoned the determination to resist hate and prejudice against Jews. My relationship with him was, regrettably, never good, but I always respected him for courage and strength of character.

Ron
 
additional ammo

Yet another quote for you taken from the "Prophets" category.
I prefer these from the WORD of God to any taken out of "the traditions of men."

"Now there was no smith found throughout all the land of Israel: for the Philistines said lest the Hebrews make them swords or spears." {That is weapons; firearms.}

Not only for those Jewish here on THR, but has application for all of us.
As -the effort to close firearm manufacturing by lawsuits and bankruptcy.
 
I'm Jewish, and one of my favorite holidays is Purim.

I think that you should tell the Rabbi that there are some pretty strong laws and history behind Jews defending themselves by whatever means are necessary.

First (chronologically) is in the Exodus itself. In Exodus 13:18 it says:

But G-d led the people about, by the way of the wilderness by the Red Sea; and the children of Israel went up armed out of the land of Egypt.

[Emphasis added].

Second is Purim. Without the weapons to face the Persians intent upon killing them, Ahasueros' order to kill all of the Jews on (what is today celebrated as) Purim would have been carried out. Even if not fully successful, thousands or tens of thousands would have been murdered. The pre-emptive strike enabled by Ahasueros' 2nd order allowed our ancestors to survive.

Third is Chanukah: no (armed) revolt, no purified Temple or restoration of Jewish rule over our land.

The failure to fight to protect your life is a sin - G-d gave you the gift of life, and the failure to protect that life, and the good deeds and good influences that you have over others later on is a grave crime akin to suicide.

This is explained in the Talmud (this next part is directly copied from the website that follows it):
The Talmud repeatedly mandates self-defense against an attacker. For example, in Talmud Tractate Sanhedrin - which deals with Legal Judgments - the Rabbis explain Exodus 22:1, which states, "If a burglar is caught in the act of breaking in, and is struck and killed, it is not considered an act of murder." The next sentence explains, "However, if he robs in broad daylight, then it is an act of murder [to kill him]."

The first sentence clearly refers to a burglar who works at night. This burglar may be killed, presumably because he enters covertly, knowing that people could be present. He is deemed to have lethal intent. By contrast, the burglar who works by day - when people are normally around - presumably tries to avoid people in order to avoid confrontations, and so is not deemed likely to have lethal intent.

That quote is found at the following website, which not only explains this whole subject better than I can, but which I recommend that you peruse for yourself and have your Rabbi study it. Let's see what he says afterwards.
http://www.gunownersalliance.com/Rabbi_0029.htm

By the way, in the modern world when Israel was actually strong and willing to use that strength, none of its implacably hostile neighbors dared to, uh, fornicate with it. However, in the last 15-20 years, when Israel has shown little if any willingness to fight for itself (despite vast qualitative, quantitative and intelligence superiority), its neighbors and other enemies have mercilessly attacked it (i.e. its people, and usually the most helpless - just like Amalek attacked the rear of the Hebrews during the Exodus).

BTW, ask your Rabbi what is required for G-d to perform a miracle. If he says something like "be pious and pray a lot" he'd be dead wrong. Yes, you need to do those things, but you ALSO need to do everything possible to use the tools that G-d gave you to help yourself. G-d gave us a good mind (which many in recent history have thrown away on poisonous ideologies including modern liberalism), eyes that see, ears that hear, strong arms, etc. We also have money with which to buy actual tools, including guns and other weapons (and all of your money comes from G-d's beneficence to you). "G-d helps those who help themselves" not only makes sense, it is actually part of our theology (you can just sit around like a couch potato and expect G-d to give you a miracle Lotto ticket, or to save you when the Nazis are banging down your door, you have to DO something to even merit G-d's attention, let alone the miracle itself. This was the case at the Sea of Reeds (wrongly attributed to the Red Sea) when G-d split the waters for our ancestors.

While the great miracle of the splitting of the Red Sea is well-documented, many people are not aware of the important factor which was needed for this event to take place. Hashem was unwilling to perform this awesome miracle until He saw man's willingness to exhibit faith in Him. Therefore, it was not until Nachshon the son of Aminadav of the tribe of Yehudah bravely jumped into the water, showing unbelievable faith in Hashem, that the sea actually parted.

http://www.tfdixie.com/parshat/beshalach/011.htm

In other words, without actions intended to help your situation yourself, G-d won't help you. Putting this in the context of defense against a criminal or a genocidal regime, merely praying for G-d's help will do you no good - you must use the tools that G-d gave you (including weapons) to help yourself first. Your Rabbi won't be able to dispute this without showing that he doesn't believe in the Torah. If that's the case, find a new Rabbi.

Needless to say, I'm a Jew with guns. As the correct version of the saying goes, "Never Again - but if again, then not for free."
 
as a christian i belive in gods literal word of the bible and the torrah not a interpritation. this is my problem also, it makes it hard to find a place to worship. Anyways arm yourself and do what you feel you need to do to defend yourself. God would not want us to roll over and die or it would defeat the purpose of a soul. I sleep locked and cocked. Find a new temple where you feel comfortable.
 
im sorry to not have this on my first responce but what about joshua and jerico, very brutal, but justified in gods eyes!!!!
 
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