My first SHTF scenario

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1. They were not LEO, they were clerks.

2. As it turned out, the "bad guys" were not robbers, they were customers.


Spin it any way you like.

Yeah, only LEOs can pick out criminals. Like Amadou Diallo or the Atlanta grandma Kathryn Johnston :rolleyes:

At least in this case no one was shot and killed.

And for those who think racial profiling is not valid, try taking a stroll through the FBI crime statistics:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

Or through a thorough summarization of crime statistics by race, since the FBI seems pretty light on this, for some reason :rolleyes:
http://www.amren.com/colorofcrime/color.pdf

Crime Rates

• Blacks are seven times more likely than people of other races to commit murder, and eight times more likely to commit robbery.
• When blacks commit crimes of violence, they are nearly three times more likely than non-blacks to use a gun, and more than twice as likely to use a knife.
• Hispanics commit violent crimes at roughly three times the white rate, and Asians commit violent crimes at about one quarter the white rate.
• The single best indicator of violent crime levels in an area is the percentage of the population that is black and Hispanic.

Interracial Crime

• Of the nearly 770,000 violent interracial crimes committed every year involving blacks and whites, blacks commit 85 percent and whites commit 15 percent.
• Blacks commit more violent crime against whites than against blacks. Fortyfive percent of their victims are white, 43 percent are black, and 10 percent are Hispanic. When whites commit violent crime, only three percent of their victims are black.
• Blacks are an estimated 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against a white than vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit robbery.
• Blacks are 2.25 times more likely to commit officially-designated hate crimes against whites than vice versa.

Gangs

• Only 10 percent of youth gang members are white.
• Hispanics are 19 times more likely than whites to be members of youth gangs. Blacks are 15 times more likely, and Asians are nine times more likely.

Incarceration

• Between 1980 and 2003 the US incarceration rate more than tripled, from 139 to 482 per 100,000, and the number of prisoners increased from 320,000 to 1.39 million.
• Blacks are seven times more likely to be in prison than whites. Hispanics are three times more likely.
 
...the reason the all had thier hands in their pockets and in the one guy's shirt is because they windows don't roll up and they were all very cold. ... It's kinda funny, but I just wanted to share with everyone what MIGHT have happened.

What might have happened is that you might have shot an unarmed man.

This is why concealed carry is a bad idea.
 
What might have happened is that you might have shot an unarmed man.

This is why concealed carry is a bad idea.

No, concealed carry is a good idea.

What is a bad idea is to go into a private business, fail to follow the instructions of the business owner, and then start cursing him. This is an especially bad idea if you are a member of a minority group that commits a vastly disproportionate amount of violent crime in this country. Oh, and you're accompanied by several of your equally well dressed friends.
 
The "customers" story sounds like BS to me. If the car was freezing cold, why sit in it for five extra minutes? I mean, wouldn't a rational, logical person want to move from the cold car to the warm store ASAP?
 
I agree completely with sm. The store should be rearranged for maximum defensive potential. I'm curious, when the guns were drawn did you mentally tick off a list of targets and figure the target zones you could hit and be sure they'd be neutralized? Inside a store like that, it could almost be contact range and a single COM (Center of Mass) hit might not do the job. Ever since I switched away from a 45 to a hi-cap 9mm I've been pretty dedicated to training for head shots.

Btw, I teach high school deep in the inner city. Most of the kids who actually go to class are really GOOD kids. The thugs are all outside the wire trying to sell their dope and using a calculator to figure small profits, because they're illiterate. But I know more than a few gangsta wannabes and a few of my students got busted last year in an armed robbery. Tried to rip off a restaurant! I saw them after they'd cooled their heels in the county jail for six months before returning to school and I asked them, privately what would they have done if one of the patrons been armed and known how to use the weapon? First, it never even crossed their minds. But they all said that if they'd seen me eating dinner they'd have left in the interests of survival. I told them that my meager skills are unremarkable when compared to many folks I know in the area. Most all of my IDPA club would have riddled them and been asking for score and procedurals! They're lucky they went to boot camp instead of boot hill.
 
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Well, I never thought there would be so much discussion of this scenario. The point of me telling my story was because I was hoping to relay to people how quickly a seemingly normal situation (hanging out at the local gun store) can turn bad.
Maybe those kids were truly on the up and up, maybe the one really did need a camo shotgun stock. However, put yourself in our shoes. Are you really willing to allow 4 individuals who are very young, and of the style you typically see on the news as being violent perpetrators and gang members, to walk through your store with their hands in thier pockets?

To clarify, the store owner asked them to take thier hands out of thier pockets first assertively, but politely. At which point he was met with a barrage of aggressive language. The owner issued yet another verbal order to make thier hands visable which they answered with the same aggressive language. While answering the second time they spread out across the front of the store. WHich to me signifies a gun fight tactic.

If you're willing to allow all of these aggressive actions without you yourself proceeding down the escalation of force ladder, then that's fine. I however would like to live to see my 24th birthday.

Thanks to all for the feedback.

Here is a copy of what the typical police department Use of Force Continuum looks like... I think we did pretty well.

Level 1

At level 1 a subject uses VISUAL INDICATORS. In other words, you will feel that there is possible danger based on things that you see: a suspicious subject approaching you, somebody who is looking around nervously, a car slowing next to you. At that moment no laws are being broken by the subject, none that you may be aware of, but you know something is wrong, so you prepare yourself mentally for all possibilities. First you take on a CONFIDENT DEMEANOR (see YOUR REACTION under the right gray triangle). This means that you look confident and not afraid. Your facial expressions indicate that you are aware of your environment and know how to use it to your advantage. CONFIDENT DEMEANOR also means that you look like you are prepared for an encounter or open or you are aware of the danger and you are making a “tactical retreat.”

Level 2

At level 2 things start to heat up. The subject is actively engaging you or others around you, through VERBAL INDICATORS. This can be anything that warns you that an attack is about to happen, but short of direct threats. The conflict cues can be anything from the subject’s tone of voice to implied threats, or even things you overhear – such as suspicious passengers in an airplane whispering about how “this is going to be a short flight.” Those are not alarming words in and of themselves, but with some visual indicators one might suspect a possible terrorist attack. If a subject is trying to start a fight with you the best thing to do is to try to calm that person down or ignore them altogether. This is known as VERBAL DEFLECTION. By reacting in this matter you will not incite the situation any further. However, in some situations you may have to use a firm, confident voice to talk some subjects down. You may have no choice but to try to intimidate them, and try to resolve the conflict in this manner. Words will not hurt you physically, but words will be a good indicator that it may escalate to a physical confrontation.

Level 3

At Level 3 we enter into actual physical contact with the subject or multiple subjects. It may be a precursor push, or a punch to the nose, or it could even be a sexual touch (sexual battery). It’s at this level where most martial arts systems teach the cookie cutter approach. If someone simply pushes you to intimidate you or to get you to swing first you cannot launch a side kick and blow their knee out, then come crashing down on them with a drop knee to their spine. If you do, even though you have a right to defend yourself, you would most likely going to jail. This would be “unreasonable force” for the situation.

At Level 3 you can get injured: a broken nose, cuts, bruises, scrapes, soreness, etc., but they are neither serious or life threatening. If the subject throws a few swings at you because you’re throwing him out of your party, you can’t rip his head off – the law won’t allow you to do that, even if you did sustain minor injuries from his blows. Because there are not hard and fast rules on what you can and cannot do in a self-defense situation, the law will judge you by a simple rule: What would a reasonable person do in the same situation? The cop who questions you knows what is reasonable or not, and the jury who listens to you will determine what is reasonable or not. By the way, cops are not judged by what a “reasonable person” would do in the same situation, but rather, what a “reasonable peace officer” would do, because they are bound by a lot of restrictions that civilians are not.

Level 4

At level 4 death or serious bodily injury is likely to result, whether the suspect’s, or yours, or someone you are trying to protect. If a suspect does attack you where death or serious bodily injury is likely to result (FELONY ASSAULT), then you have the right as a citizen to use DEADLY FORCE. This not only applies to felony assaults against you, but those you choose to protect. If someone is trying to harm a family member or co-worker in your presence, you may (but are not required to) use deadly force. However, if the case goes to court, you will still be judged based on reasonableness of the force.

Examples of felony assault include attempted murder, mayhem (putting out an eye, severing a limb, ripping off an ear, etc.), rape, caustic chemical attack, robbery, etc. In other words, and remember these words carefully, you must have fear for your life, or the life of another.

Notice that the gray triangles start off with broad bases, then taper off to mere points. The right triangle represents the options you have in a conflict situation. When we start off with Level 1, there are multiple options: you can walk away, call the police, yell for help, etc. However, by the time you are engaged in a life-and-death conflict there are limited options. If someone is trying to stab you, you have basically one option – control the weapon. If you don’t block the knife or grab the hand that controls it, you could be dead.

The diagram he talks about can be found here http://www.usadojo.com/articles/use-force-poster.htm

Jim Wagner is a police and military defensive tactics instructor, and teaches his Reality-Based Personal Protection system to the public. For more information visit www.jimwagnerrealitybased.com -From USDojo.com
 
DaveBeal said:
What might have happened is that you might have shot an unarmed man.

This is why concealed carry is a bad idea.

We had a long thread recently about the validity of shooting "an unarmed man"... the overwhelming concensus was that a person does not need to be "armed" in order to present a threat of serious bodily injury or death.

It is an accepted fact that everywhere that Concealed Carry has been instituted there has been a measurable reduction in violent crime - and fears that CCW holders will be shooting each other over parking spots just don't materialize... why then is Concealed Carry "a bad idea"?

DaveBeal I would welcome your response and clarification of where you are coming from with your statements.
 
Okay, coming late to this party.

Scorpiusdeus beat me to it, but no where did oobray indicate their race. Just that they looked like gangbangers and were driving a beater Cadillac.
__________

DaveBeal - If they had shot an unarmed man, or four, it would not be because concealed carry is a bad idea. It would be because four thugs, or thug-wannabes, were so stupid as to walk into a gun store and basically threaten to, or act like they were in the process of, pulling guns to rob the place. Very similar to people who commit suicide-by-cop, by implying they have a weapon and making rapid and furtive movements trying to draw fire.

Stupid should hurt. In this case they got lucky. It didn't hurt. This time. But that does not mean that they weren't very stupid. Or that they were truly not up to no good.
 
Don't engage the Trolls... it just makes them want to stick around.


On a more serious note:
The only critique I have is don't point the gun at someone unless you are actually pulling the trigger. Besides the obvious problems, it won't do anything more to intimidate someone who isn't already bothered by a person with a gun.

I thought the ruel was 'don't cover any target you are not willing to destroy'. Not 'about' to. At orange alert and probably rising quickly, i.e. no show of hands on direct order and spreading out around the store... I don't see the fault in covering the perceived threat.

Help me understand why not to.
 
Let me ask this. If one of those kids had removed his hand from his pocket a little too quickly and gotten shot, would it have been legally justifiable?

My concern is that CCW permits allow people to carry without having the same level of training that LEOs have. That can lead to tragedy when someone misinterprets a situation.
 
I would venture the opinion that those young lads were the ones doing the misinterpreting! If I were on a jury, it would be clear that those men felt threatened enough to pull guns to protect themselves when these visitors onto private property displayed a wanton disregard for their OWN safety by ignoring orders to show their hands.
 
My concern is that CCW permits allow people to carry without having the same level of training that LEOs have. That can lead to tragedy when someone misinterprets a situation.

If I showed you the WIDE variation in LEO training THEN you'd be scared. (and this is coming from someone who was in the field <sigh>).
 
My concern is that some gang banger or crackhead with no training and a lead pipe might kill or permanently cripple me or my family is my major concern.

Why are you concerned about level of training for CCW and the rights of apparent felons? Why that concern over CCW's when the most deadly machine in America - the automobile - requires nothing more than studying a manual written for 8th graders and a 10 minute driving test?

Ooooooh... because that would inconvenience YOU. Well I tell you what... so long as you never go after anyone with a lead pipe, I think you are probably pretty safe from being shot by a CCW carrier. The same cannot be said on your commute every day.
 
Man...I think people need to just mellow out. Don't be so quick to draw a gun.

Also, not everyone wets thier drawers when staring down the barrel of a gun - some get down-right indignant (especially if they feel they've wronged). So don't be surprised if these kids told you to "Shove it". It happens.

When I was 17, the owner of a local service station (where my car was in the parking lot overnight for repairs) pulled a gun on me when I went back to retrieve a jacket out of my car's trunk. The first words out of my mouth were, "Just what the %^&* do you think your doing you SOB?"

Remember - once you let that bullet fly, not all the remorse and tears in the world can call it back - or resurect a single life.
 
That was pretty dumb. Every one of us that frequent my favorite gun store are always armed. The owner knows it and actually appreciates us looking out for him.

On another note, this reminds me of a Darwin awards honorable mention of a guy robbing a gun store and all the patrons drew their weapons.
 
Similarity

Similar situation happened at my gun club. Guy comes barging in my hand goes right for my CCW. He Freezes as it is before opening and instead of just Big K there is me and I am pinging. He says, "Uh I just wanted to see if you was open." Big K says, "yes" eyeballing me and his shotty. Group (that followed him in) leaves. Another group robs another firearms dealer that same morning. Could be a coincident.
Group gets caught in Denver, after MVA, with stolen firearms and property.
 
Lib-trolls ftl.

But yeah, it sounds like the situation was handled well with no one getting injured or killed. Good looking out there. I can't help but wonder though, what kind of drug do you have to be on to think that robbing an open gun store, with patrons inside, is a really good idea?
 
DaveBeal said:
There's probably no point in prolonging this...

You're probably correct in that. As a member of this forum for all of 3 days, a non-gun owner and obviously quite uninformed about firearms in general and the CCW programs in particular, your comments reflect more the confusion of your political philosophy than any knowledge.

Your own introduction to THR on Nov.29/2007 prominently asserts that you are a "fairly liberal Democrat". You also mention that "Trap and skeet shooting also look like fun"... leading us to believe that you view guns as "fun things". While shooting certainly can be an enjoyable exercise, a lot of gun owners take a more serious view of gun ownership and training. You state that you may be buying a 9mm and a revolver...presumably for some other from of "fun". Hopefully the NRA Basic Pistol Course will instill some thirst for more training and insight into firearms ownership.

Comming in fresh and making uninformed pronouncements will get you labelled as a "Troll" pretty quickly here. I assume you have already been relegated to more then a few "Ignore Lists" which is a shame if you are willing to learn - which you indicate as your goal in your intro.

Welcome to this forum... visit often and you will learn much.
 
I really was going to keep quiet, but since a few folks chose to continue after I threw in the towel...

As a member of this forum for all of 3 days, a non-gun owner and obviously quite uninformed about firearms in general and the CCW programs in particular, your comments reflect more the confusion of your political philosophy than any knowledge.

I certainly don't know as much about guns as you guys do, but I don't think you have to know how to field strip a 1911 to have a valid opinion about CCW. You just need some knowledge of human nature and fallibility.

I guess it's really just a matter of risk perception. If lived in Baghdad, I'd probably carry. But I honestly don't understand why CCW holders feel the need in this country. Serious question: How many times have you been in a position where you felt the need for lethal force? In my 51 years, never.
 
Why carry in Baghdad? Its safer there now than it is in post-Katrina New Orleans. I'm just saying. :D

EDIT

Its unsafe in New Orleans because everyone there was disarmed after Katrina, accept the criminals of course. Now no one can protect themselves. There is the reason we need not let our government take our guns.
 
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