NAA Mini vs knife

[ghitch75]

Those pie plates are really dangerous, especially when still and glaring at you.

Not picking on anyone here, just a general pet peeve of mine. Reality isnt those tight little groups you leisurely shoot at "round" targets at the range. Its what what you can do on demand, under stress. How are you with it when you and the target are moving under "realistic" time constraints?

not under under attack.....i have whacked plenty of rabbits and cats with a quick draw from my pocket.....so i'm sure i can hit a BG pretty quick.....unless you own a Mini and use it i don't think you comment on this....

 

[AK103K]

not under under attack.....

But that is what this is about, isnt it?

i have whacked plenty of rabbits and cats with a quick draw from my pocket.....so i'm sure i can hit a BG pretty quick.....

Definitely more realistic than practice on pie plates. Did the rabbits and cats have a fierce look on their faces when they were attacking? That would increase the adrenaline factor I would think.

unless you own a Mini and use it i don't think you comment on this....

I was basically referring to "anything", big or little here, not just the "mini". "Most" people arent very realistic when it comes to what they base their skills on with any of them.

I dont own or use one, but I have shot a couple of mini's enough to "comment" and know what they are like, and found them to be lacking compared to my Seecamps for the intended use.

 

[ghitch75]

anyway i think i'll do alright when the time comes....God for bid....

 

[dev_null]

Not to demean your shooting, 03, but with a .22 I'd like better than pie plate accuracy if I'm counting on stopping someone/something.

 

[2WheelsGood]

Reality isnt those tight little groups you leisurely shoot at "round" targets at the range.

And carving a turkey once a year doesn't make you a knife fighter either.

 

[ghitch75]

And carving a turkey once a year doesn't make you a knife fighter either.

+1....LOL!!

 

[AK103K]

And carving a turkey once a year doesn't make you a knife fighter either.

I think maybe some are catching on.

Practice "for real", or "cook and serve", your choice.

 

[2WheelsGood]

Practice "for real", or "cook and serve", your choice.

Regardless, I could make my handicapped sister far more proficient with a gun in one afternoon than I could in 100 years with a knife.

 

[Ghost Tracker]

And carving a turkey once a year doesn't make you a knife fighter either.

Absolutely agree! Yet IMHO, all else being equal, the fine motor-skills required to effectively operate a micro revolver are higher than those required to effectively operate a knife, and will therefore deteriorate more extremely & rapidly under high stress.

 

[conw]

Regardless, I could make my handicapped sister far more proficient with a gun in one afternoon than I could in 100 years with a knife.

This is more a reflection of you than anything, IMO.

Edit:Sorry - I missed the handicapped part but it really depends on what kind of handicap I suppose.

 

[2WheelsGood]

This is more a reflection of you than of knives, knife fighting, guns, gun fighting, or your sister.

Your statement is ridiculous. I'll try to make it clearer. The BEST knife fighter in the world could NOT make my HANDICAPPED sister proficient with a knife. EVER.

Edited after you edited yours

 

[AK103K]

I guess I jumped the gun on "catching on".


Regardless of your choice, if you dont practice realistically with it, you might as well roll some dice and see what happens.

There is a difference between a "carrier" and a "user". Anybody can carry something, knowing how to use it, is something else.

 

[conw]

2Wheels, I feel you buddy. I guess I fail to see how your sister's undisclosed handicap really has much to do with the discussion on an NAA mini vs a knife though. It has very little bearing on the inherent merits or weaknesses of either. There are people with handicaps that would prevent them from attaining proficiency in a handgun, but not a knife.

Am I missing something? I know I was before.

 

[2WheelsGood]

There are people with handicaps that would prevent them from attaining proficiency in a handgun, but not a knife.

You must be joking. Seriously? Name one handicap that would make proficiency with a knife a possibility but not a gun.

Regardless, my point not so explicitly stated is that five full pages ago, the OP asked a question about the merits of two means of self defense. But he completely left out one very important characteristic about those who would wield these objects.

Not everyone is a healthy, young, agile, male. It takes FAR more physical prowess to wield a knife effectively than it does a gun. The elderly, the handicapped, small and relatively weak men and women, large, overweight men and women...

Wait, why am I even arguing...

 

[conw]

Name one handicap that would make proficiency with a knife a possibility but not a gun.

The one that comes to mind first and foremost would be severe visual impairment. There are also a number of neurological disorders that attack fine motor skills (note I am not referring to the stale training cliche of 'gross vs fine motor skills' as I think that's irrelevant) and leave major motor movements relatively intact.

Edit: I am just giving a counter-example as requested. I do understand what you meant now, since you replied again. I just didn't see what your handicapped sister (again, undisclosed handicap) had to do with anything, the first time around.

 

[dev_null]

But he completely left out one very important characteristic about those who would wield these objects. . . . Not everyone is a healthy, young, agile, male. It takes FAR more physical prowess to wield a knife effectively than it does a gun. The elderly, the handicapped, small and relatively weak men and women, large, overweight men and women...

Very good point, and you're right to call me (and others) on that.

 

[Ghost Tracker]

the stale training cliche of 'gross vs fine motor skills' as I think that's irrelevant

Have you ever tried skiing/shooting a Biathlon course? I didn't really believe, being a skier, in good cardio shape & an well-experienced rifle shot, that my skills would be that severely deteriorated by the experience (an experiment suggested by a shooting buddy). I'm betting (but do not KNOW) that the physical & mental "stress" of a Biathlon would be nothing compared to an aggressive, surprise knife attack. My "fine motor skills" (shooting) were MUCH MORE EFFECTED than my "gross motor skills" (skiing).

 

[conw]

We aren't really in disagreement. Relax. I get that such a thing exists as fine motor skills, and they are more prone to deterioration under stress.

However, if you practiced the Biathlon more, you would probably do better. I am actually arguing that proper knife mechanics ARE more gross motor skill oriented than proper gun mechanics, so they are more suitable for some sufferers of some types of degenerative neurological conditions.

I was actually mentioning gross vs fine as a "stale training cliche" because a lot of times people give it as a reason why one manipulation or action is superior to another. As you can see, I do NOT argue that a knife is better than a gun for everyone all the time simply because it is a gross motor skill. I only make that assertion for one group of people. And you may be happy to know that I do think a gun is a better solution if you happen to have one and can use it, but that doesn't preclude carrying a knife. My original answer was given in the context of NAA vs knife only, and in fact I even qualified it by saying "If we make an apples to apples comparison we have to compare their effectiveness at touching distance."

Regarding the stale training cliche, gross vs fine motor skills:

a good example you might hear is "I prefer to rack the slide rather than use the slide release, because using the slide release is a fine motor skill."

Now I too prefer to rack the slide but it has nothing to do with gross vs. fine motor skills. Fine motor skills can be plenty robust under stress if they are practiced enough.

 

[Ghost Tracker]

We aren't really in disagreement. Relax.

Relax? I make the Dali Lama seem hypertensive . Have you tried an NAA revolver from a concealed holster & shot it in a hurry? I, out of curiosity, tried my Bud's new NAA Ranger. It's a very interesting, desirable handgun. Yet I don't know of any method to train myself into shooting skills that aren't still, IMHO, designated "fine motor". It is single action, the grip, hammer & trigger are tiny (itty-bitty), the sights? ditto, shooting it is (again IMHO) like trying to reset the date on my watch. In the adrenalin-dump of urgent self-defense it would (to me) be like trying to reset the date on my watch, while driving in heavy traffic, at 100 mph, with a surprise lap-full of scalding coffee.

 

[conw]

Ghost - read closer - we really are in agreement. I just said that fine motor skills are harder to learn than gross, but not impossible. They are also more easily eroded, but again, this is not the case if you master them.

The people (not you or me) who argue ALL fine motor skills erode to an unusable degree under stress are making an argument against the functionality of ANY handgun in extremis.

Obviously that's not true, so while we might want to minimize unnecessary fine motor skills in favor of more robust gross motor skills while possible, if there is a truly superior attribute to be gained from fine motor skills, you simply need to practice more to increase its robustness.

That said, please remember all of this related to a specific example I gave of degenerative neurological disorders, where fine motor skills really are eroded and where gross motor skills are not (as) eroded... I simply mentioned that I do not normally subscribe to the gross vs fine differentiation, except for that subset of people...

 

[Ghost Tracker]

Ghost - read closer

Are you naturally condescending or do I somehow bring it out in you? Don't mistake my location with illiteracy. How did we get off on "the sufferers of some types of degenerative neurological disorders" tangent after you "missed the handicapped part"? Yeah, I get your point. But it seemed then & still seems a tempest in a teacup. I said I believed, from experience, that an NAA revolver is a difficult little sucker to shoot quickly & well with all the time in the world. I also said that a personal (admittedly very limited, totally experimental) Biathlon course taught me a firm lesson in fine vs. course motor skills. You remember, the ones you so sweepingly dismissed as "stale & irrelevant". Dang, I want to hear everyone's opinion. But I may not be smart enough to stay in the conversation. I suppose I might...

simply need to practice more to increase its robustness...

pleeease! I grow weary & tire of your vapid magniloquence. Please excuse me hence I hurl, wincing.

 

[conw]

I guess we can just disagree to agree then. I don't really see where we've differed much at all past my initial confusion on a statement you made.

 

[dev_null]

Well, I see that Christmas spirit didn't last long.

Let's debate the post, folks, not the poster.

 

[conw]

dev, it can be very difficult to properly convey tone in this medium. I work in a trade where 80% or more of my communication is online; somehow, in forums interacting with unknown members, I still manage to miscommunicate.

I can only assume that GT felt that I was berating or attacking him with some of my later statements (specifically some thoughts on fine vs gross motor skills) due to my initial, perhaps overly aggressive, inquiry into his statement. That would be my fault.

GT, no hard feelings.

 

[Ghost Tracker]

GT, no hard feelings.

Nor from here conwict. And you're right about the inherent difficulty in effectively communicating without the aid of tone, inflection and volume dynamics. I, too, have inadvertently raised the hackles of participants in forum conversations & have been inclined to re-read my OWN posts to discover the "offending" issue. Truth be told, I prefer to avoid even phone conversations about important matters as I feel I miss the silent, but often vital, body language & facial expression. No Worries Mate, We're fine.
BTW, HAVE you shot a NAA revolver?