Nazi memorabilia at gun shows

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The fact that we let Nazi memorabilia into the gun shows and continue to do business at these venues makes us guilty by association.

Guilty of what though? Will you be "condoning" all of the horrors of humanity, if you haver purchased or been associated with ANY historical memorabilia? Pretty much anything historical can be traced back to violent and cruel behaviours. Heck, take the American flag, I'm sure I don't have to go into details the atrocities that were commited to bring it to us. I know that is definitely an extreme, but like I said, there is a difference between wanting something for it's historical significance, and wanting something to express your beliefs.

I very much think that repro stuff is pointless, and pretty vulgar, because it is made for the sole reason of furthering Nazi beliefs. The memorabilia has a past, it has stories tied to it, which are more important than the item itself. Do you look down upon people collecting US Vietnam stuff? WW1? Civil War? Crusades? No matter how far you go back, and how "right" the good guys were, and how "wrong" the bad guys were, war sucks, and history is interesting.

As for the trenchcoat and SS dagger, if I ever did manage to get a hold of one of those, I would do my best to research that particular items past. And I wouldn'y wear the coat in public any more than I would use the dagger to stab someone. It is interesting to own, but those aren't my beliefs, so I have no need to express them that way. And I don't neccesarily think I would want one with blood on it, even though I'm SURE there's an interesting story behind it.
 
I played in a band a couple of years ago that toured throughout Europe, including 13 shows in Germany. (The german people are awesome folks, or should I say, "Volks" BTW.) Having been an amateur WWII historian since childhood, it was an incredible experience.

It's illegal in Germany to display any nazi-related emblems or anything like that. The thing that hammered it home for me was when we were nosing around in one of the many HUGE record shops that are over there. I passed by a CD from the band, "KISS".

Something didn't look right and it took me a moment to figure out that the band's logo was different. The letter "S"'es in the word, "KISS" were curvy instead of normal. This is, of course, because the style of the pair of "S"'es that we're used to seeing here are the same as the nazi "SS" insignia and the record co. had to alter the logo for the german market or else the CD's couldn't be displayed.

*Don't tell anyone, but at 3 AM one night, I took a whiz in the middle of the parking lot that's above Hitler's bunker in Berlin, just to show him my affection. It was raining so no trace remained. Just my own little, "hello".

I can't say enough about my affection for the german people. "Civilized" is the best word that comes to mind.

On a gun-related note, at the Bamberg show, I met the district's Jaegermeister. (Why he was at a hard rock show when in his '60's was a bit of a curiosity.) Anyway, we spoke about his weaponry with which he preferred to hunt. Karl-Heinz went to his truck and brought out 2 80 + YEAR OLD DRILLINGS!:what:
 
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Nazi stuff?

Japanese stuff?

The proper name for it is plunder, loot, booty or spoils.

The winners get it from the losers.

:D

Bruce
 
If you want that stuff, you should be able to have it. I don't want anything to do with it though. I don't want to outlaw it or anything, I just think that it should have it's own sales niche and not be lumped in with gun shows.

Nazi crap isn't the only thing that needs to not be at gun shows. I don't want table lamps, velvet Elvises, or lots of the other junk they fill tables with to be there either.
 
Oh that's right, this thread is about whether it belongs at a gun show, not whether it belongs. LOL.

I think that it probably doesn't belong at gun shows any more than half the crap they usually have there. Of course, I live in CA, so our "Gun Shows" are usually "Useless Crap Shows" with a few tables of actual guns. I suppose the airsoft stuff almost belongs, I just wish they would sell, like, nice stuff.
 
I don't mind reproductions either, as a lot of people seem to. What if someone wants a collector's piece but can't afford it? There is a lot of judgment being passed in this thread and a lot of people are being assumed to be guilty from their shopping habits.

I have a replica Colt SAA that is aged to look old because I don't have the thousand+ to toss down on a real one. Does that mean I shouldn't be able to display it somehow? I don't display it proudly, but its part of a 'western nook' on my DVD shelf. If someone is really into WWII, I don't see a reason why they shouldn't be able to own a reproduction of a knife, dagger, or anything.

Should we not allow tiny little swastika flags to be sold for the plastic WWII army men to fight against?

In all things capitalism, I say let the market decide. Some here have not gone to gun shows because of the sale of Nazi items and I support that. But tell the show organizer that you wanted to go, but refused because of the items.

I'm not saying picket, I'm saying answer with your wallet. If someone sells something you disagree with, buy nothing from them, not even bottled water. But be respectful of their decision to sell their wares. (Again, this is all assuming the sellers are not Nazi recruiters or something)

As for the "guns only" argument, they're not called "Guns and Refreshment" shows, so no drinks, waters, or hot dogs. "Guns and Manuals Show?" Nope. I would not want to discriminate against the show for having things for sale that aren't guns as long as the vast majority are guns. Unless it is a "Gun & Militaria" show, which often have a great great deal of historical items, that may outnumber the guns.

And for the Mexicans taking down the US flag and flying a Mexican one, that too is different from just flying a swastika because it is illegal to fly any flag over the United States flag. And removing it from the pole to fly another countries flag, I believe, would probably constitute a violation.

When Jihadis burn American flags, of course it makes me mad. But they're honestly doing it out of hate. If some hippie burns a flag, it makes me mad and I don't like it, but they're doing it as a statement and that's legal.

I feel like Nazis are just the quintessential bad guys and its not only easy, but almost required, that everyone hate them.
 
I found a WWII German youth corps knife. Took a picture of it and tried to save it at photobucket. Yup, you cannot have the swastika or nazi word there or eBay. It has to be covered up and use words like WWII, German, etc.

There are still people in the SW who hate Apaches, because of the Indian Wars. Both sides commited atrocities against each other. But we collect Indian items from that era.

Wht is important is what is taught at home, church, and in school.
You cannot have teaching that gives history a passe' nod, or not the whole story. That is how mistakes are repeated.
You cannot have teaching that puts one idealogy or notion above anothers, That is going on all the time now.
 
I don't have anything against people selling German WWII stuff, nazi stuff at gun shows as historical memorabilia. But I do have something against Nazis selling this stuff to glorify national socialism and possibly recruit new members. The difference is hard to describe, but it's something like the supreme court definition of pornography: You know it when you see it.
 
One of my other (my wife says I have too many) hobbies is R/C planes. A lot of people like to build scale models of WWII planes, including German ones. They don't do it to glorify the Nazis, but for the purpose of building an accurate representation of a historically significant plane. Every now and then you hear about someone who freaks out on a guy because his plane has a swastika. What are we supposed to do, pretend history never happened? I don't see a problem with collecting OR modeling it as long as it's done in an appropriate context.
 
As many posters have mentioned the swastika wasn't a "symbol" of hate until Hitler got his hands on it. Many cultures used the swastika with various meanings.

My great grandfather was a palace guard for the Kaiser before he immigrated to the US. I have pictures and a few other items of his. One is a gold pocket watch of which the fob is made of interlinking swastika's presented the right way. Hitler's swastika's were reversed of the original swastika. Sadly, this fine heirloom has spent the last 70 years in a box, never to be displayed or worn. Maybe in 100 years or so my great grandchildren will be able to wear it once again. Even though I wish I could wear it, I never will because there is too much hate surrounding the swastika. The watch was made before Hitler was even born.
 
Drilling chap n to the x

Loud Mouth
quote:

Karl-Heinz went to his truck and brought out 2 80 + YEAR OLD DRILLINGS

Yup,

those things, the one I saw from a friend of a friend looking for ammo were the epitome of the gunmaker's art.

there were from what I understand taxes on each weapon in Germany between the wars so the drilling/veriling etc were at minimum tax evasion

they were also from what I have seen the definiton of Masterpiece

the heft/fit/form after function are breathtaking

this gun looked like it would weight in at 12 to 14 lbs, it may well have but it was like an sks/M1 carbine in that it felt like it was 4 or 5 lbs when swung like you were pulling skeet or hunting dove.

dry fired all three barrells :uhoh:

triggers broke at about 3lbs, break like glass 3 lbs

the engraving looked like the work of a master jeweler and may well have been.

wish I had taken pics it was unbelievable.

and from what I understand they still hunt with them.


r
 
Been thinking about this and I guess I just don't see things the way others do. America beat the Nazis and the stuff we brought home were trophies for defeating evil.

The guys who wear that Nazi stuff today are the same as the Nazis before, losers.

I love to see the stuff our fathers brought home from defeating evil and it makes me proud that they display it as war trophies.

jj
 
Just Jim said:
I guess I just don't see things the way others do. The guys who wear that Nazi stuff today are the same as the Nazis before, losers.
That remark is just sad. There's nothing admirable about the Nazi party, to be sure, but there's something to be said from accuracly understanding history. If we make the icons of the past taboo and forbidden to look at, touch, express, or see, then it will become "unreal" to us, and we'll lose touch with the past, allowing such things to happen again. Examples of people who have allowed WWII to become "unreal" are the same type of people who deny that the holocaust happened, because there's "not enough evidence."

The Nazi party was composed of Germans, but Germany is not composed of Nazis. If people re-enact WWII to make things "real" to us today, and that makes them "losers," then I guess I'll go steal Audie Murphy's clothes, and become a hero.

As for the original post:
Well, I don't think they give gun shows a bad name (if done tactfully, and not done to "glorify" anything), because it's part of history. It shows that that kinda stuff existed, and allows people to own a part of history. I would hope that people would still enjoy the shooting sports in their own fashion, and not have such a thing put a damper on their spirits, but I'm sure it still happens. Just because many people equate Nazi symbols with all manner of things evil and wrong doesn't mean the gun community is evil and wrong--but I'm sure some people can't get that just because war memorabilia is sold at a gun show, doesn't mean that the gun show is evil. I think that this quote by Jwarren sums it all up:
JWarren said:
I don't think it would bother me, however-- provided that we are talking about a dealer in War memorbilia and not Hans' House of Nazis looking to recruit the 4th Reich.
 
I am not talking about people who wear the Nazi stuff for re-enacting history as I have no problem with it. I am talking about those who try to bring back the evil by wearing the Nazi stuff and they are the losers.

Should have been obviouse how much respect I have for the winners by my last sentence.

jj
 
I suppose you could burn a cross on a black man's lawn and say, come on it's just a burning symbol of Christ. Or you could hang a noose in your doorway and say, Oh come on, it's just a rope used to secure stuff, or you could fly the Nazi flag from your car antenna and say, well, it used to be a symbol of love in Egypt.

Good luck with that.

Did you feel the same when Latino protesters in CA took down the American flag and flew a Mexican flag, or when you see the American flag set ablaze in Iran?

No, because first off, you're starting a fire on someone else's lawn. If said KKK member wants to set a cross on fire on his lawn, or on someone's lawn/property he otherwise has permission to set it on, then he has every right to. Same with the Mexicans, again, it's not their right to go take down someone else's (be it the town or state's or private property) flag without permission and put a mexican flag up. But if said Mexicans want to fly a Mexican flag on their property/property they have permission to fly it on, I wont like it, but hey, it's their right to. In turn, I can fly a flag or have a billboard or whatever that says I dislike Mexicans flying Mexican flags in America and not speaking English. And for Iran, I dont like it, but you know, hey, they own the flag, and they can do what they want with it.

The answer to free speech, is free speech. If you dont like something someone else is saying, then you say something counter to it. You dont go ban saying certain things because you dont like them, because how would you feel if someone did the same to you?

For the issue of nazi memorabilia at gun shows, I probably wouldn't like it unless it was historical or something, but it's not up to me to decide, it's for the gun show owner to decide. Personally, I myself wouldnt mind people selling that stuff just as long as they're not recruiting for a white power/Nazi organization. If they were, I'd politely debate with them/tell them my opinion that they should not embrace socialism and genocide and that if they are truely interested in advancing white people, they should make a non-racist organization about advancing white people, and when I'm done talking to them, I'll politely tell them goodbye.

If I owned the show, and people went to me complaining about it, they were harassing customers, or pissed me off somehow, I'd likely throw them out or tell them to put their copies of The Turner Diaries and other stuff like that away and to not harass customers. I'd be the owner of the show, so it'd be my right to throw people out as I saw fit.

But, it's up to the owner, not you and I, the most you can do is tell the owner you dislike it, and it's up to him to decide, though a good store (in this case the show owner) does take his customer opinions to heart when making decisions. I personally, though, would just try to counter his opinion, not try to silence it. You know, hand out phamplets about Hitler's disarmament, phamplets about why national socialism is bad, how Hitler controlled people and how it relates to our current government now, ect.

Also, one sorta unrelated thing to my message, is that a lot of times people selling that kinda stuff are selling it because people want it for the shock/novelty factor. This is America, afterall, and we have the freedom to believe what we want, no matter what anyone else thinks. And some people buy swastika stuff just to show that in America they have the freedom to. They basically buy the stuff because they can or find it interesting. You may hate it, but in many european countries, if you question the holocaust, you go to jail, same with wearing swastikas. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial In Austria, you go to jail for at least 1 year, and at most, 10 years, for denying or supporting the holocaust. In America, we're free to say whatever we want, and display whatever symbols we want. People are free to criticize you if you display a nazi flag or whatever, but you cant be arrested and put in jail for displaying one.

Sorry if this post seems long and rambling, but I'm just mad that people claim they like their constitutional rights, but at the same time want to ban "hate speech." Saying "oh nazi stuff should be banned because it's worse than other speech and nobody needs to say it" is exactly the same as saying "X gun should be banned because it's really dangerous and you dont need it anyway."
 
The few vendors I have seen with any sort of regalia do not look like the perverts the objectors are trying to paint them as. What they are showing is their prejudiced view rather than an accurate picture.

If your city licenses a porn shop, you are condoning porn, not to mention the hookers down in the red light district. How do you live with yourself?
 
I have personally seen counter-society booths which sell Nazi stuff and books like Black Medicine, Getting Even, and The Turner Diaries. That kind of booth does discredit us. Yes, it does, and the anti's consider all of us to be that kind of loony. Ditto for men who participate in militias. These are not inherently a bad idea, but some militias which are fronts for White Aryan Resistance or other such groups make militias everywhere look bad. The same can be said for Jimmy Swaggart or Jim Baker for Christians. I'm an evangelical Christian, Reformed in belief, who likes history and firearms. I focused on the Finns, which also used the swastika on their planes (a blue one). Now, the same camera crew that goes to the gunshow I attend and films that Turner Diaries table will then be certain to use Benny Hinn as an example of Christians.

So, I do not support Hinn or Swaggart, I do not appreciate the light they cast on my very earnest and studied faith.

But there are alot of folks ignoring the elephant in the room. It wears a Nazi arm band, has a "Rebel Flag" in his room, and knows nothing at all about the German army in WWII or the true reasons why most men fought for the Confederacy. No, that elephant buys the Chinese copies of Nazi daggers and hangs them on the wall, wear's the Nazi trench coat and Doc Martins boots. He has a tattoo of a skull draped in the "Rebel Flag" with a Charles Manson swastika on the forehead and a snake coming out the mouth.

He likes the Nazi's because he's a rebel, though of what he does not know. He has an SKS with folding stock (nothing against SKS's here, just an example), and hates ****ers and Jews. Why he hates them, well, they are different and hating them is controversial. He is acting out, is a hateful person, and is very, very ignorant. He'll go to the gunshow because guns are cool even though he can't really shoot - spray and pray is his only love (nothing against letting loose, guys, so don't latch onto that). He finds that booth - not the German artifacts from WWII, the Turner Diaries "Rebel Flag" made in Pakistan/China Nazi rip-offs booth, and that is the other reason why he is there.

This elephant does not know that a "rebel flag" is actually one of many iterations of the Confederate Battle Flag, has no clue of the events behind the War Between the States. He thinks all Germany was Nazi in WWII and thinks the SS was the military - that all German soldiers were Nazi SS troopers. He knows nothing more than that.

And he is the poster-child for gun owners. That the poster is painted with the media's brush makes no difference.

Ash
 
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Right on, ash.
I like the benny hinn allusion.
The media paints with a broad brush, so people like us who
try to defend ourselves get negatively blanketed along the side of those
who represent only themselves and their personal hatred.

I especially like the part about how not all german soldiers were SS men.
We had family over there in the 40s, caught up in the frenzy. They weren't evil,
they were damn fine men. But now they are in the shadow of hate, guilty by association.
 
No hate involved with genuine traders or collectors.Yes hate for Germany during WW2.No not all Germans signed up to the Nazi party,some good people left prior to what was about to happen,the rest stayed to help with the war effort and the overthrowing of Europe.
I was to young to be around but family,friends,collegues were there and from what they witnessed cannot be put into words.We still have a problem in Europe with Nazis and the hate they sell,wearing the swastika is considered a taboo and rightly punished.
Hate is easily sold if you are a good salesman,the wearing of the uniform only enforces what you believe in.
Swastika symbol of peace,it was,but no longer...
 
I'm a little confused

This is my first post on THR so I'll try to word this correctly. It seems to me that a lot of these posts are very hypocritical in the sense that any one of the people saying that nazi memorabilia would give their left n*t and their first born for an original luger or walther with a swazstika or ss emblem stamped on them. My grandfather brought back a german uniform among other things and when my parents pass them on to me they wil be displayed proudly and if somebody is offended oh well thats why god gave us the ability to turn our heads and look at something else:scrutiny::scrutiny:
 
My brother brought plenty of the stuff home from Europe after WWII,a nice officers pistol (.32 cal.) with a holster,an SS ring with skull and cross-bones with ruby eyes,4 bayonets,a cap,ammo belt and canteen,and the best was an Offices sword,I think his son has all of it now.
 
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