'Neighborhood Militia'? Comments, suggestions and critique WELCOME

[H088]

If you want to get your local police, along with the Feds and about every other agency excited go ahead.

Better to keep to yourself, keep your guns and not bring up the issue with people.

 

[Otemigo]

Neighborhood Watch


I like the way everyone is thinking here. Call it what you want, but I feel safe living in this great nation knowing folks like you all are here to help (no matter what level of help). I beleive you all would make GREAT neighbors!

I figure I will practice at the range, teach the wife and kids the best I can, learn from them/you and... buy enough firearms to arm the neighborhood if need be. If not... well... at least I will have a nice collection.

P.S. If you all are ever in Southern Indiana look me up.

 

[Sans Authoritas]

Aye. A mostly Jewish neighborhood in New Haven, CT is doing something much like what that bloke in North Carolina is doing. http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0627/p03s03-ussc.html?page=1

When armed citizens patrol the streets
A citizen patrol group in New Haven, Conn., says it's doing what police won't, but critics question its tactics.
By Tom A. Peter | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

from the June 27, 2007 edition
E-mail Print Letter to the Editor Republish del.icio.us digg

Page 1 of 2

New Haven, Conn. - The Edgewood neighborhood near downtown New Haven, Conn., is probably one of the last places you'd expect to find residents patrolling the streets with pistols.

Turn-of-the-century carriage houses sport manicured lawns. Tall elm trees really do line Elm Street. And every night since youths beat up a rabbi's son three weeks ago, members of the newly formed Edgewood Park Defense Patrol (EPDP) have been walking the streets at night. Roughly half of them have permits to carry concealed weapons and take a handgun on patrol.

Although there's nothing illegal about the practice, this ratcheting up of a traditional neighborhood watch worries local officials and national experts. Citizens rarely, if ever, have the training that police routinely receive to defuse volatile situations. But as budget woes and other priorities cause some localities to cut back neighborhood police patrols, advocates say that stepped-up citizen policing is an understandable response – although it's a risky one with guns.

Longtime residents say Edgewood was a peaceful place until the 1980s, when residents started moving out to the suburbs and drugs and prostitution moved in. The situation started to improve in the late 1990s, in part due to neighborhood revitalization projects and New Haven police working closely with the community, says Avi Hack, a high school teacher and EPDP spokesman. But about five years ago, officers who used to work with Edgewood were reassigned – something Mr. Hack blames on the police chief – and "gangs of marauding youth" began harassing the neighborhood, he says.

After working with a variety of city officials and seeing no results, Hack says, "at a certain point we felt the only way to put the pressure on the mayor to either dismiss the police chief or get the police chief to do his job, which he seems incapable or unwilling to do, and ensure our own security was to form EPDP."

In an act of apparently random violence earlier this month, a group of youths attacked a local rabbi's adult son in his own home. Shortly afterward, members of the Jewish community along with some local African-Americans and others formed the EPDP.

On this particular night, Hack and Gary Lynes — a retired musician – are on an hour-long patrol in matching black EPDP T-shirts.

"I'm with you 100 percent!" shouts Tina Salters as the two pass by. Down the street, they're met with a scowl from Nancy Brown. "The police are working real hard and they don't need no one else coming out here with guns." Hack and Lynes don't carry guns. Despite the EPDP criticism heaped on him, Chief Francisco Ortiz, a staunch advocate of community policing, says he "wholeheartedly" supports EPDP, though he made a point of officially not supporting their decision to carry weapons on patrol. He says neighborhood police patrols were reduced largely due to funding cuts.

"We used to get a lot of grants to help [with community policing] – a couple million dollars a year. But we lost those grants over the last six years," says Chief Ortiz. He explains the war on terror came at a price to community policing efforts that allowed officers enough time to work small beats and get to know the residents and their concerns. "The country shifted its focus. Like Cyclops with one eye, it took its eye off" community policing, he says.
(Photograph)
'This is going to cause more violence here. We are trying to get guns off the street.'
– Stryson Joe, a college student majoring in criminal justice
Nicole Hill

Traditionally, community policing efforts encourage citizens to be the "eyes and ears" for police but to remain on the sidelines.

Neighborhood watch groups "should not be armed. Period.... They are not trained; they are not educated in the laws, and it is distinctively a law-enforcement function," says Robbie Woodson, program manager of USAonWatch, an umbrella group that oversees the national Neighborhood Watch Program. "Leave the law-enforcement activities to law-enforcement officials – and part of that is armed patrols."

Although Curtis Sliwa, founder and president of the international community policing organization Guardian Angels, strongly supports EPDP, he, too, is concerned about members carrying weapons. "The ingredients are here for a major problem," says Mr. Sliwa. "Lawyers are perched. The moment there's an incident with this patrol ... you know there's going to be some civil suit filed claiming that their client's civil rights were violated by arms-toting posses."

Armed civilian patrols may have a hard time meeting the higher standards authorities have adopted over the past 40 years for how and when to use firearms, says Samuel Walker, emeritus professor of criminal justice at the University of Nebraska at Omaha. "I'm not sure that these kinds of neighborhood patrols are aware of these kinds of rules.... The risk of them shooting someone who should not be shot is very high."

While armed civilian groups like the EPDP are rare, they are not unprecedented. In 2003, the "Oregon Rangers Association" raised eyebrows when it began patrolling Oregon's national forests armed with pistols and shotguns, intent on stopping crime in the wilderness and helping rangers stretched thin across the parks. With reports following 9/11 that terrorists planned to target Jewish neighborhoods, Rabbi Yakove Lloyd made international headlines when he announced his intent to organize civilian patrols armed with licensed firearms, baseball bats, and walkie-talkies through Jewish areas in Brooklyn, N.Y. The effort fizzled after a public outcry.

Crime overall in New Haven has fallen by 56 percent since 1990, according to New Haven's Uniform Crime Report.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[goon]

As an armed neighborhood watch that is working under the "approval" of the powers that be to supplement thinly stretched police forces, it's not a bad idea.

IIRC, doesn't any M-word also fall under the authority of the local or state government?
That is something that many seem to forget, but if you're part of an M-word, you don't get to just go around shooting up trees and doing what you want.
You still have someone you answer to and your mission is still ultimately to support your community.

 

[Oregon Ranger]

Clarification

Just thought I would jump in with a little clarification to the article posted by Sans Authoritas from the Christian Science Monitor.

We, The Oregon Ranger's Association, are not in any way a government agency. We are a 501c3 non-profit with a focus on emergency medical response and training in rural Oregon. We also volunteer in the wilderness on a regular basis, work on community service projects for rural areas, provide 1st responder and other certification classes for rural police, fire and EMS, and yes, we carry guns sometimes.
In relation to this thread, we patrol our local communities and report crimes to the proper authorities. We also provide our neighbors (with their written permission) with the willingness to trespass individuals off their property and confront any criminal action we see on their property.
Despite being trained beyond the level of most police departments, we do not have any more authority than any citizen of Oregon. We are a dedicated group of individuals that firmly believe that making our state a cleaner and safer place for everyone is our responsibility as citizens.
Caring is good, but doing is better.

www.oregonrangers.org

 

[Otemigo]

Neighborhood Watch

I think the neighborhood watch symbol/sign would be more affective if it read
"PETA, The Brady Campaign, and the Democratic Party have deemed this area unsafe for animals and disenfranchised people who may be thinking of stealing just to get by. This area is full of BITTER conservatives that do not believe in dialing 911 just to deal with your sort."

There is more, but I will spare it for now...

 

[James T Thomas]

Second thought

Comment:

Any establishment of "Neighborhood" Militias; whether speculative or applied, plays right into the hands of the political rattle snakes who would use the fact for argument against the Second Amendment by deception of definitions!

 

[RX-178]

Since several board members have been kind enough to bring articles on EXISTING Armed Neighborhood Watch (this concept will be referred to as such from now on) organizations, I now think that further research on how they can be legally and practically implemented is doubly important.

I'm especially glad to have input from those in rural communities that are describing police response times in hours, rather than minutes. Some form of neighborhood watch seems to be absolutely essential in these communities.

Legal issues aside, I cannot agree with statements that police officers are always more qualified than citizens to respond to such a situation. But it has in the process brought up a valid point on equipment and training.

My estimation of a police officer that responds to a 911 call in this situation does NOT have specialized equipment, or any amount of RIGOROUS training for entering a house at night. Two officers will have sidearms and flashlights. These officers will not have night vision devices, and will likely not spend large amounts of time doing killhouse training, or in tactical entry. In worst-case, they only practice for quarterly, or even annual firearms qualification. This is actually quite understandable, since a modern American police officer has much more to train on, and many more situations to practice for than entering a home in response to a home invasion call, especially when gunfights and high speed chases are rare even for police.

However, this also leads me to believe that an average, healthy individual can be trained and equipped to match an average police response to a home invasion. Any one of us with a handgun and a flashlight has the same equipment that an officer responding to a home invasion would have (and find useful to the situation). Any one of us with a handgun with an underbarrel weaponlight actually has better equipment. In the context of a neighborhood watch, the members would also have a potential option of practicing and training IN the exact houses they may respond to. While this kind of training can seem very aggressive and vigilantist, I find it would be very important to avoid accidents such as in the story macp shared with us.



Oregon Ranger, I would be very interested in speaking to you further about your organization and its practices. Send me a PM?

 

[Jeff White]

My estimation of a police officer that responds to a 911 call in this situation does NOT have specialized equipment, or any amount of RIGOROUS training for entering a house at night.

What do you know about police training? I think you are making assumptions based on what you read on internet gun forums.

Two officers will have sidearms and flashlights.

Nobody carries rifles or shotguns where you live?

These officers will not have night vision devices,

Never used one indoors have you? Never had to contend with the reduced field of vision, the bright blind spots where outside light enters the structure and the total lack of depth perception have you? There are reasons that white light is still the standard for indoor work for everyone from Tier one military units to the best SWAT teams.

and will likely not spend large amounts of time doing killhouse training,

Killhouse training??? You planning on your armed neighborhood watch doing dynamic entries and gunning down burglars? The police are constrained by their desire to take the criminal alive. There is a big difference between dynamic kill house training and a meticulous building search.

or in tactical entry.

The big thing right now in LE training circles is active shooter training. It gives the patrol officer who is likely to be the first on the scene the tactical entry training (and much more) you think they don't get. Active shooter training programs have been going on since around 2000. I doubt you'll find many officers who haven't had it more then once, even in very rural areas.

And of course you are neglecting the fact that the average patrol officer who has been on the job a while has done it dozens or even hundreds of times for real. Your group may never do it for real.

However, this also leads me to believe that an average, healthy individual can be trained and equipped to match an average police response to a home invasion. Any one of us with a handgun and a flashlight has the same equipment that an officer responding to a home invasion would have (and find useful to the situation). Any one of us with a handgun with an underbarrel weaponlight actually has better equipment. In the context of a neighborhood watch, the members would also have a potential option of practicing and training IN the exact houses they may respond to. While this kind of training can seem very aggressive and vigilantist, I find it would be very important to avoid accidents such as in the story macp shared with us.

Do you think that's all that's involved? You haven't mentioned the real important parts at all, the parts that going to keep your ad hoc neighborhood SWAT Team out of court. Training in the law. Most POST certification programs require 40+ hours training in law.

What are the laws on citizen's arrest at your location? Do you know? How does that important little bit of information fit into your training program? Any laws against unlawful restraint? Any civil tort protection for a private citizen acting as you intend to act in your state?

I would suggest you try to get some official sanction from the agency that serves your area. It would really suck to lose your home in a civil suit because the burglar you "arrested" convinced a civil jury that you mistreated him.

You're taking on a big job and it's going to be a lot more work then just buying lights for your weapons and running around the neighborhood playing SWAT in each other's houses.

Jeff

 

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

Well lets just say that if there's an Armed Neighborhood watch in Iowa, I'd join it.

 

[borntwice]

This is a great seed of an idea, and I would like to see armed, trained citizens making an alliance together to step in and become involved when bad guys beat the pulp out of someone, and no one will get involved. I think it would make for a much more humane society. What would be needed is some grass-roots organizing, and some really good training (legal, mental, and of course physical). You don't want untrained people trying to do something like this, but an armed well-regulated militia would be a great idea to take back some of our inner cities from the criminals.

 

[RX-178]

Replying to Jeff White:


First of all, it is not 'my group'. I have never stated that I am starting a group like this myself. In fact, I have stated the opposite, that I have no intent at all to start such a group in my neighborhood. I live in a neighborhood where most, if not all of the residents are already armed and capable of defending their own homes and families. The crime rate is very low, and police response is prompt. A group like this would serve no purpose in my neighborhood.


But that's one neighborhood in the entire nation. On this very thread, there are people who would stand to benefit a great deal from having an organization such as this, and I just wish to research this concept as much as possible for THEIR use. And while you are correct that there are police departments have officers that are well trained and respond quickly enough for this (such as where I live), I'll stand by my statement that many law enforcement departments around the country do not have officers trained to the same standard.

All I wish to do with this concept, and the valuable input that the forum members have given, is attempt to formulate a guideline on training and equipment that I can provide to people living in rural areas with long police response that can truly benefit from having an armed neighborhood watch. Judging from the input of forum members that live in these areas, the people already do watch out for each other, and I feel that this organization and training can only help prevent mistakes and misunderstandings if an actual situation were to occur.

 

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

well how would one go about starting a group like this though? Because in all technicallity, it's illegal to form groups for "fighting" whether against crime or not, in the constitution, but there's also a good side to it... with the "Right to Assemble Peaceably" ammendment, wouldn't a group like this be considered Peaceably? I mean, because you're starting this group to stop crime.

But then there are always the anti-gun nuts who'd bring in the second amendment saying that the little tidbit of guns beign necessary to the militia of the free state. Technically we don't need a militia anymore, because of the likely hood that us being attacked is supposedly very scarce, but one of my military buddies said, and I don't know if I personally believe him, but he said that in the next 20 some years we might see an invasion/attack by the Chinese. And to be honest, I can somewhat believe that. BUT to keep us from getting off hand, there's always going to be the people that are going to say that this is a bad idea and that it'd make a bunch of us feel like Rambo.

And also, you'd have to find someone to close all of the endless loopholes to even make this remotely legal.

I don't know, but this is a great discussion. It has peaked my interest.

Please continue this awesome discussion.

 

[Jeff White]

RX-178,
I spent 22 years working in a rural county with a long response time. The sheriff's department covers all of the county with two deputies per shift. Response time can be long. Everyone here lives by mutual aid agreement, often my activity report contained as many or more mutual aid calls then it did calls from my city.

The people who live here already look out for each other. It doesn't take all kinds of tactical training to do what you are proposing to do. We get calls from citizens holding people at gunpoint quite frequently. To my knowledge none of them required any HSLD training to do what they did.

You are concentrating on the part that interests you, the shooting and tactics part. That's fine, this is a gun board, but that is not what people in your armed neighborhood watch need to know. They need to know dry boring things like the law covering what they are doing.

Most importantly, unless they are going to be an underground organization, they will need to operate under the auspices of the police agency they support. That means what they need to know will be told to them by the head of the agency that sanctions them. If they are armed they will have to meet whatever standards are set by the state they are in. It may require special legislation for them to be legally permitted to operate at all.

Paramilitary training and private military organizations are illegal in 28 states. So without official sanction in those states you are breaking the law.

It will be a long hard road to travel to do this legally in a lot of places.

Lastly, what are your qualifications to advise people in what they need to know to form an armed neighborhood watch? If you don't actually have the quals, it might be better to take your idea to someone that does.

I don't think you realize how much is involved with what you are wanting to do. It seems to me like you are trying to run a police department like a volunteer fire department.

Considering most burglaries don't happen in the dead of night, but during the day when people are at work. So how are you going to beat the police response time when your members will have to deploy from their jobs? What about their employers? How many will be able to participate when it's leave work to "play cop" and lose your job? I ran a police reserve unit for a while, I know how hard it is to keep volunteers interested.

You are getting into something that will be a lot more involved getting a bunch of guys together and buying coaxial lights for your weapons......

Here is how I recommend you go about it:

1. Hire an attorney to advise you on the legal aspects of everything you want to do. If everything you want to do isn't legal, find out what it will take to become legal.

2. Take the information from the attorney and come up with a plan.

3. Make appointments with both the head of the police agency in who's area you will operate and the elected head of that political subdivision. You are going to need the approval of both of these people. They are going to be concerned first and foremost about the liability they assume for sanctioning the organization. You are going to need to be able to provide good information and plans to get them to put their concerns aside.

4. If you are sanctioned, you are going to have to abide by the rules that you are given to operate under, and you will have to be very careful that you only allow people who are mature enough to do the job into the organization. Nothing will get you shut down faster then the impression that there are a lot of SWAT wannbes out there making citizens arrests. I'm sure that the sanctioning body is going to require background checks. And most likely veto power over membership.

5. You will not be able to operate until you have completed whatever training is mandated for you, and while you will be able to train on your own, it had better be from approved lesson plans so that your training is defensible in court.

I'm not against what you are wanting to do. I'm just trying to make you aware of the fact that it's much more involved then you think.

Jeff

 

[theotherwaldo]

Y'all are missing the point. The primary function of the gun on the hip of an armed Neighborhood Watch patroller is not to protect his neighbors. If something happens, the cell phone and the spotlight should be the primary tools used.

The gun is there to protect the patroller!

Self-defense on the public streets shouldn't be open to question.

 

[Chic]

Y'all are missing the point. The primary function of the gun on the hip of an armed Neighborhood Watch patroller is not to protect his neighbors. If something happens, the cell phone and the spotlight should be the primary tools used.

The gun is there to protect the patroller!

Self-defense on the public streets shouldn't be open to question.
__________________
Triangulating on reality.

EGG Sactly...

I would phone the police (DUH!!!) but I would not let the criminal hurt me (BANG!!!)...

Just DO NOT "organize" anything "officially"... just meet with your neighbors casually as normal. Talk about the "please watch over my house while I am in Bermuda" or whatever.

If this is just "individuals" doing individual things together you will be fine.

Of course "don't break the law" (DUH!!!). Just be yourself, call the police, help thy neighbor... why is this such a big deal?

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Jeff made some very good points.

I think it's a good idea, if refined and implemented well. In fact, it's necessary to our society that we look after each other.

High fuel prices and a crumbling economy will likely turn us back into villages where neighbors will get to know each other again. Might as well make it useful.

 

[JohnMcD348]

I wouldn't call it a neighborhood militia or watch. Just neighbors helping neighbors and looking out for each other. Where I grew up, nearly everyone in the neighborhood knew each other or at least knew of each other. That wasn't that long ago(I was born in 1970). Now I sort of know my two neighbors that live on either side of me but that's about it.

With todays society and lack of a front porch, the idea of a neighborhood has gone away. It's simply a home that you live in when you aren't at work. Then it's a place you work to keep up so the "home ownders association" doesn't threaten you in some manner.

If I still lived in the kind of place I grew up in, I wouldn't have an issue or problem jumping to the aid of a neighbor as I knew they would so the same for me. Nowadays, it's just close friends and relatives.

 

[Chic]

John is hitting the nail on the head... I miss the good ole days (partly).

I am lucky that some of my family are my neighbors. Of course with all of the subdivisions going up I now have TONS of new neighbors.

 

[Oregon Ranger]

As someone who worked very hard to help get the Rangers rolling, let me offer some advice if you are serious about starting an armed watch group (btw, "Neighborhood Watch" is a trademarked official organization, so don't use it without permission!)
First, having gone through all of the paperwork mess of setting up an official organization, you are better off to be 'unofficial.' Once you have an official organization, you are officially liable as a group.

Second, Remember that you have a RIGHT to carry a firearm in America (until next January!), no need to ask permission. Know your local gun regulations and bear in mind that the criminals you wish to stop may also have a firearm. But the old adage remains true that it is better to be judged by twelve than carried by six. There are dozens of ways to get firearms training from basic knowledge to advanced tactics, get some. If you are in Oregon, contact the Oregon Rangers Association.

Third, know your neighbors. Ask them to keep an eye on your property and set up a phone tree. If one neighbor is robbed, make sure all the neighbors know. If someone looks suspicious, write down their plate number, get a description of their vehicle and them.

Fourth, Know you local laws. You may be able to arrest someone for trespassing, but it may get you charged with kidnapping. Know your laws!!

 

[rrruuunnn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlyKoCiJz8Y

don't do this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlyKoCiJz8Y

 

[Mannlicher]

The neighbor should call 911, and hope they get there. No way am I going to take a legal hit, let alone a hit from someone's gun, for the act of butting in.
I am not a policeman, did not play on on TV, and did not stay at the Holiday Inn Express. Let the professionals do the job.
Folks that are so unmindful of their own safety that they live unarmed, are very likely to become someone else's victim.

 

[saltydog452]

Not a good idea for a formal organization. Think Crip, Blood, LK, SD, etc.



An informal meeting of the minds might be of benefit in some locations.

salty

 

[James T Thomas]

Giving ammunition to the enemy

Please refer to previous post no.57

-Then go to .KDKA.com>KDKA Investigators>"Fourth Man Arrested in Federal Firearms Probe."

There you will find how the Federal Government>FBI, etc. is categorizing and dealing with "Militias."

Prosecutions are proceeding along the lines of spin, such as "Flame thrower 'Party." -Where "explosive" devices were detonated in the presence of children.

No violations of law. No criminal charges. The accused was stupidly experimenting with liquid fuel spraying or squirting in what appears to be a "spectacle" set up for entertainment and amusement for himself, friends and relatives; -children present. A "Party."

Then charges of explosives being stored. He had chemicals that could potentialy be used or converted to explosives. Who doesn't?

He had GUNS! -collected and stored. All over the place.
It kind of takes your breath away to think of it.

Then there is the "Terrorist Explosive Belt" of the third accused person.
No belt. No explosives. Just household chemicals.

It will be a matter of time before "Militias" are linked to the anti Second Amendment propaganda and control effort. A short time.

 

[4v50 Gary]

I think it's better to form a NERT (Neighborhood Emergency Response Team) under the auspices of the local fire department. You get first aid, light search and rescue, disaster preparation (mitigation measures) that will prepare your neighborhood to be less reliant on the emergency services. From it members you can recruit a gun club.

One lady in her neighborhood NERT asked me to swing by with my rifle if there was ever looting her in neighborhood. I told her that I would be either busy at work or defending my neighborhood first.