Neighborhood shooting, WAY too close for comfort

[CDW4ME]

Yeah, I'm not sure how I'm going to make that work. I might lock my gun in the car when going to my parents house instead of leaving it at home. I've never been comfortable with the idea of leaving my gun in my car, but 1) my car has never been broken into (I'll be 53 this summer, I've been driving since a month after I turned 16), 2) I can use one of my CCW quick access safes cabled to a hard point under the seats to prevent smash and grabs. Work is tougher, I'm a teacher, unless your state allows it under their CCW laws (MD doesn't) it is a crime to carry any kind of weapon into a public school. I can't even take pepper spray or a Swiss Army Knife to work (I do have a "tactical pen"). Under a new law that MD is about to pass in reaction to Bruen, they are about to make about half the state "sensitive places" and off limits for carry, so it will get complicated (until the courts strike that down). Also, I had been ignoring no guns allowed signs (in businesses open to the public, a person's private home is different IMO). They don't carry any legal weight in MD. Well, when the new law takes effect they will, again, more complications.



I shoot my P365 well, and I typically carry it with 12 round mags, so that is my minimum now. I will very likely retire my small framed revolvers as much as I like them. I may still use the smallest ones as backup. When driving it can be hard to reach my IWB carry gun, so I'm thinking a snub in my coat pocket in cold weather, or on an ankle in warmer weather, may be a good solution when driving. In fact, the reason I recently tested out my P365 for pocket carry was I was going to be in the car for a while, and some of it would be to go to a gun store I didn't know (I was putting 8 guns on consignment) and in an area where there are some parts of the area are questionable. So, I transferred my P365 to my pocket while in the car. I also suspect that I will carry my Glock 19 and my CZ PCR a bit more often (though the P365 will still see more carry time).

I had been thinking about actually breaking out my LCP and Pf9 for some carry time as the weather gets warmer. Yeah, that's not going to happen.

I'm 56. I was a teacher for 19 years in KY where carry in school was a felony. I had been a cop before, so having to be unarmed where I previously could be seemed illogical and I really, really disliked it.
Locking safe with cable, had a safe bolted to floor of a Jeep, me driving to/from work or when running errands afterward unarmed was unacceptable.
You have my sympathy.

What would the response be if you told you parents you didn't want to carry in their house but you didn't want to have to leave it in the car? Would they meet you on the front porch and/ or sit outside? Would they be content to have you leave it in the car? Would they meet you elsewhere? Do they know you are armed when they come to your house?

Nothing wrong with a Sig 365 and I prefer it to a LCP - I have both.

 

[entropy]

When I heard the shots and got prepared, everything slowed down and I was able to slowly and deliberately take each step I took (I've been in emergency situations in the past and this was also my reaction). My hands didn't get shaky until I sat down in the dark waiting and had a moment to process. Unless I'm actually in a self defense shooting, I can't accurately predict anything, but I suspect I'll be OK.

My bigger adrenaline related worry is the immediate aftermath and what it does to your recall and perception of details. Your brain is rushing 100mph, and details get fuzzy. Other than identifying info, I will not talk to the cops if I'm in a self defense situation until I've called USCCA (or whatever company I'm using at that time) and talked to my lawyer, and then I'll talk to them with my lawyer present. We will be shaky on details, we may get facts wrong (were there 5 shots, 10, were some overlapping and it was quite a bit more... if I am in a shooting and I say I remember 5 shots and the cops find 10 pieces of brass...). While many of us may know that our brains fill in details without you actively trying to lie in order to try to make sense of the partial info it has (many of our memories are these not quite accurate pieces of info), and when the adrenaline surges you will miss details and facts, many people tend to immediately jump to the conclusion that you are lying if all of your statements don't line up 100% with what the investigations finds after the fact.

As you probably know, the first effect is tachypsycia, which in the moment slows time down (from a psychological perspective, not physically) and can make it possible to store detailed information during it. The older we get, the less this ability remains, (though doing 'active brain's exercises helps with retaining short tem recall) which the second experience you had, adrenaline dump, can adversely affect.

 

[chaim]

I'm 56. I was a teacher for 19 years in KY where carry in school was a felony. I had been a cop before, so having to be unarmed where I previously could be seemed illogical and I really, really disliked it.
Locking safe with cable, had a safe bolted to floor of a Jeep, me driving to/from work or when running errands afterward unarmed was unacceptable.
You have my sympathy.

What would the response be if you told you parents you didn't want to carry in their house but you didn't want to have to leave it in the car? Would they meet you on the front porch and/ or sit outside? Would they be content to have you leave it in the car? Would they meet you elsewhere? Do they know you are armed when they come to your house?

Nothing wrong with a Sig 365 and I prefer it to a LCP - I have both.

I lived with them a couple years in my adulthood. They weren't happy that I owned guns, but they got used to the idea that there were guns at their house. I'm sure they'd get used to me carrying when visiting if I pushed it, and they'd rather have me there than not come because I was armed. I'm not 100% comfortable with locking it in the car, but I may do that when I go to their home (I have to get used to the idea anyway with the number of places that are soon to be illegal to carry in MD). I may just do the LCP so it totally disappears and not tell them, but that does violate my ideals surrounding property rights (it is their condo, and they have the right to be wrong, and to be 100% comfortable with what people do when at their home). I'm still thinking it through, the only definite is I'm not giving an ultimatum, I carry or don't come in.

We do sometimes meet for dinner somewhere, and they sometimes come to my place, but most family gatherings (including many with extended family) are at their place. I haven't specifically told them I'm carrying when they are over here, but they do know I have a MD permit and I have told them that I carry everywhere I legally can now that I have it (unless the owner objects of course, which other than with them means I don't go there). I let them fill in the blanks if they want to.

 

[.38 Special]

In my early twenties my young wife and I rented a place which featured gunfire nearby (somewhere on the block) every month or two. The bullet hole in the window was a good reminder to stay away from them. The routine became "Double check that the doors are bolted. Retrieve the gun (at that time and place there was no possibility of a CCW, so I rarely had a gun on my person). Turn out the lights and hunker down near something bulletproof."

There sure as hell was no chance I would mosey on outside to see what was going on.

 

[Ignition Override]

"Pat, can I answer some of the questions?"

 

[The Night Rider]

In the course of my "career" I was present for (as opposed to "a participant in") four different shooting incidents.

None of them lasted longer than 30 seconds and I'm fairly certain none of them went over 10 rounds total, maybe 15 at the high end.

A couple things that I learned were number one, by the time you realize what's going on it's usually over.

And number 2. If you aren't hit in the initial burst of gunfire you're probably not going to be.

Unless they're shooting AT ME it's none of my business. If the police don't come looking for me for a statement I'm not going to them.

If they do come to me, "Officer it happened so fast, all I know is somebody was shooting and I ducked."

This is a real thing that happened to me several years ago didn't involve guns at all but it's an example.

I took my wife to Applebee's for Mother's Day. As we were leaving the restaurant we witnessed an accident.

I still occasionally go by that Applebee's. I have looked at that accident scene a dozen times. I am positive now of what I saw.

As we were leaving we were in the Applebee's parking lot facing south towards the main road. The guy on the motorcycle was ahead of us, also facing south. As he pulled out in the main road he started to turn LEFT and headed East towards Academy Boulevard. He got T-boned by a lady who was heading west on galley away from Academy Boulevard.

Every single one of the witnesses saw it that way. I saw it that way the guy was turning left to head East but I was so shook up I insisted to the responding officer that the guy was turning right as he left the parking lot.

The cop told me that everybody else said the guy was going left. I insisted he was going right until the Cop made me stand in front of my car in the parking lot and point which way the guy was going, that's when I realized he was going Left.

My point in telling that story is you think you know what was going on but you don't know what was going on. (That wasn't directed at Chaim it was just a general statement.)

Unless the bad guys are shooting at me I'm not getting involved.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

Sounds like a scary situation! It sounds like you handled it pretty well. A couple things that I'd add (well, because I always mention them in these kinds of threads) are cameras and body armor. You might want to consider a Ring doorbell camera or something like it. Yeah, some people don't like that big river company and there are some privacy concerns, but if not Ring then maybe something like it. The cool thing about that particular product is that someone can ring the doorbell and you can see them through a camera; further, there's a mic and a speaker! You can converse with, say, a police officer without ever going to the door. Hell, you can do it while you're in another state! So long as you have internet access distance is not an impediment. If I know there's SWAT looking for a guy I'd rather not come to door, armed or not, cops or not.

And again, body armor! Some folks tell me it's paranoid to own it. Well, would you have felt better with rifle-rated plates or without? In a home invasion you might not have time to grab it, especially if you've failed to address physical security, hardening your perimeter and creating defense-in-depth. But it sounds like you had plenty of time in your situation. In your place I'd probably turn off the lights (although I have heavy light-blocking drapes), grab my AR and slip into my plate carrier. It has First Spear Tubes, really easy & fast to put on, and the multicurve rifle plates will stop just about anything you're likely to face (including green tip and .300 Win Mag). It's pretty comfortable, and even though it's meant to be comforting there's nothing wrong with comfortable.

 

[old lady new shooter]

@chaim:

A couple things.

First, not that you need my (or anyone here's) approval, but I think ya done good.

Second, regarding your parents, I think there are two options. One is to have a rational conversation with them about why you choose to be armed whenever possible, including your solemn promise not to unholster your weapon unless there is danger to your and/or their lives. A good statistic to include would be the average police response time in their neighborhood. The other option is, "concealed is concealed." I go armed everywhere that's not illegal and I don't doubt some people in whose company I end up wouldn't be happy about this, but I figure "Don't ask, don't tell."

Third, regarding the idea that if only a few police are still visible at the scene it's safe to go outside, absolutely not. One time in my old house in L.A. there was a gunfight in the street, two doors down from me. This was before I even had a HOUSE gun, much less a carry piece (not really any such thing there anyway as regular people weren't granted a permit). Somewhere around maybe 45 minutes in, the police department robo-called the entire neighborhood telling everyone to stay inside and away from windows, and not to answer the door, until notified otherwise. Notified otherwise happened about 5 or 6 hours later, it took them that long to find all the involved BG's. And related, yes, you can end up as a victim if BG needs a place to hide and picks your house, which is likely why they said not to answer the door.

So, my $0.02.

 

[Rexster]

I worked night shift police patrol for 33+ years. Yes, I do wish that residents would have stayed INSIDE their homes, while we searched for suspects in neighborhoods.

It is also quite true that suspects, who are trying to evade police, will sometimes break into homes, in their efforts to hide from police. There have been documented cases of suspects entering homes, and holding hostages, while police searched outside, unaware that the suspect was inside a home, though this never happened, to my knowledge, during an incident where I was personally involved.

One night, during a foot pursuit, an evading suspect leaped right through a glass door, with me in hot pursuit. We ran right past several startled occupants of the house, before I made the capture, when the suspect ran out of room to run.

 

[Mk VII]

We had a (highly publicised) shooting here a while back where the woman heard it going on in the street, opened her door to see what was going on, and found the victim coming through her door, closely followed by the perp, still shooting. In the process, she and her daughter were shot, the latter fatally. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Olivia_Pratt-Korbel

 

[jstert]

chaim, your parents are blessed to have such a caring and attentive son. indeed it’s their house, but it’s your life too. my deep ccw was a naa mini bugout1 22lr until i discovered the keltec p32.

 

[bdickens]

Once I reached adulthood, I no longer had to ask my parents' permission for anything....

 

[Old Hobo]

Once I reached adulthood, I no longer had to ask my parents' permission for anything....

Thank you.

When age 16, I heard someone open our back door. This door lead into our kitchen. The time was 5 am or before. My first action was to go to my gun cabinet just past the foot of my bed. I retrieved my double-barrel Spanish 12 gauge. Lord only knows how many yards I had to mow to get the money for that Spanish double, roll-engraved (the older people in my grandmother's neighborhood needed help; they'd been born before the year 1900 and needed all manner yard-work and help picking their fruit trees, mostly cherry trees; at the time of beginning such work, I was grammar school entering Jr. High; I already had hunting firearms, put food in supper table, but my heart was set on that Spanish double; at age 16, I'd piled up enough money to buy it).

Person at back door, opens screen door, but not primary door. What's this person doing???!!! Bad intent or good intent or strange intent; man, I had no idea; shoot, I'm only 16 yr old.Now with this Spanish double, I went to our little living room (our entire house was only 800 sqr ft), stood at port arms, watched through the doorway into the kitchen (was in Jr.ROTC, rifle team, issued at school .22 LR target and M14, Sgt.Major kept the firing pins to our M14s). My plan was to see if the person would shatter the back door's glass and reach in to unlock door. Me, I had no idea. I was in no way afraid. By golly-gosh, I had me 12; twas me calling the shots; please forgive the pun. True. I was simultaneously alerted and intrigued -- this was bizarre to say the least. Then I see a car slowly driving up our road, uphill, to the East. What the dickens????????? So, I put the shotgun away and go back to sleep. In the morning (weekend, everybody was sleeping in; I sure didn't want to disturb them; I'll take care of this, y'know). In the morning, Dad tells me that I'd done right. "Our little protector," he said or something like that. Once I'd busted a bully in his eye while in grammar school. Told my dad. Dad sez, "What was that about?" Told him the boy cursed me. Dad tells me to go wash my hands; Grandma had supper ready. If somebody deserved getting hurt, Dad was OK with that. Kid at our Church shot his dad to death with a .22 semi-auto. The fellow was once again getting ready to put his wife, this boy's (age 13 or 14) mom in the hospital ... again. Sheriff's Department didn't care. That boy was back at Church like 3 weeks later. Saw a Church Elder (Protestant, fundamentalist, Elders ruled, sure not the preachers) welcome that boy back and tell him that everybody cared about him. That was a big life lesson for me (I was age 10, I guess).

In many cultures on this planet, Earth, one is required to grow-up rather quickly. Firearms skills are required for feeding the family and for defending one's family. Even with the crime we have to endure / fight-against here in America, we must understand that we are blessed here. The rest of this planet simply does not have it as easy as us. When a boy in Southern Appalachia, one hunted and fished to provide food -- end of discussion. Fatal violence was VERY rare between humans, very rare, indeed. Rules were rules. Today's world? Gosh, I'm lost, quite frankly. I don't understand all of the craziness we witness. What can one say?! Be prepared. Just be very prepared for the "adventures" you'd never imagine could ever happen. Things are going sideways and this is just the beginning. I can't see the future; got no crystal ball; got no psychic abilities.

Chaim, you be careful. All the good luck in the world to you! Just be careful, man. In this life, times go up and down, down and up -- sometimes civilized, sometimes less so, very less so. Be prepared. Study and practice. Maybe get your carry permit, if necessary. In one state where we lived, I got my carry permit. Other states we've lived, I never got a carry permit. It's your Constitutional choice. Be safe!
.

 

[Old Hobo]

Some other inputs. Do forgive.

In a serious situation, I've personally witnessed people freeze.

You've watched people go stupid. Me too. I've witnessed such, big time.

Some people, you can't protect. Protect your family. Protect yourself so that you can protect your family. Selfish? No it isn't. I'm no super-human. Neither are you. Nobody is.

Never let the words "If only ... " pass through your mind.

Our Creator's worlds are innumerable. This is but one. We only know what we know and that is fleeting at best. Simultaneously be wise and active while at the same time be wise and reflective. Too complicated? Yep. "Too bad, so sad." Growing eternally is beyond a pain. I'm NOT at peace with all of this. So it goes. We do what we can. We are lightning bugs. Our Creator just wants to see the light we give off. The Creator does not even see the dark bugs. Neither should we pay much attention, save when we are forced to do so.
.

 

[chaim]

So the last updates, here is what we know:

The brother of the person who lives in the house a couple houses up from me attacked someone they know. The police scanner and the press release says the person was stabbed, but I know what a mag dump sounds like (and I have had an experience that taught me that police reports aren't always correct, they can only be as accurate as the info given to them, and they didn't speak to any of the neighbors). The victim knew the brother. After attacking the victim, the brother holed himself up in the basement before eventually coming out and being arrested. The victim was transported to the hospital in life threatening condition. The woman who lives there says her brother is never welcome in her house again, and she is very upset because her children witnessed the entire thing.


My additional takes on how it will impact my decisions:

Revolvers:
I still love revolvers, but when it happened, I wanted more of everything (power, capacity, sight radius, etc.). I'm not worried about carrying one for a while, I've always liked to maximize capacity, so when I carry revolvers I usually carry two. I carry a lot in my pockets, so pocket carry of a snub is only really an option during jacket weather when I have the coat/jacket pockets. Before I carry a revolver again, and before I load one up for home defense again, I need a lot more practice loading with speed loaders. The last couple times I've practiced with them I wasn't happy with the results (when considering how I felt in the moment when I heard what I'm sure were gun shots). For the last few years, when I practiced with speed loaders, it was pretty casual practice. I never envisioned reloading revolvers, a snub is usually a last ditch defense and there likely wouldn't be time, and usually a second revolver has been my "reload" when carrying revolvers. For home defense, I do usually have more than one gun loaded and ready to go. While I won't clear my house if I know someone is in it, there are times I may go to other rooms (turning out lights like last weekend, checking out a noise that is "probably" nothing) and if the revolver is in my hand I can't quickly get to another gun, so I'll need a quick reload in that situation (and I'm not using a revolver for that HD role until I'm quick enough with a revolver reload).

Carry guns:
No changes are planned. My main carry is a P365 and I'm more than happy with how capable I am with that gun. Though, I may find myself carrying the larger Glock 19 and CZ PCR more often, and if I do, I may consider "splitting the difference" and picking up a P365XL or Glock 43X or 48 with the Shield Arms 15 round mags. Also, the new PSA Dagger Micro has caught my eye as a possibility.

Home defense:
Again, I wanted more of everything when this situation was going on. I'm not sure about hiding my Mini-14 or AR under or behind my bed. Since there are times when going room to room is needed even if you don't clear the house (see the revolvers section) having something short and handy is useful. I may (at least in the short term) use my .357mag Rossi 92 in that role (with a bandolier of extra rounds), and pick up either a pistol caliber carbine or shotgun soon (I was already thinking about picking up a 9mm carbine for fun). I also may replace the 1911 with a 10+ round full sized .45ACP for home defense. I often have one of my carry guns set to go and don't always have one of my designated home defense pistols set up, that is now over and the home defense pistol is always going to be ready to go. The CCW will still be my first line of defense before I retire to my bedroom though. I definitely want to get a weapons light after all to keep a hand free for calling the police, another reason to look for a new HD gun (my 1911s do not have rails).