'Neighborhood Militia'? Comments, suggestions and critique WELCOME

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Standing together for a Katrina event is necessary, I agree, BUT I am not going to be someone’s Batman. I am armed, I am armed to protect me and mine. The best way to protect me and mine is to stay out of other peoples business. You are not protecting your family if you are protecting Joe's family.

I do not care to be involved in someone else's business. I am not going to go running to where the gun shots are being fired, I am running the other direction. What is the purpose of talking self defense / "Self Reliance" / "Survivalism" if you really want to be a glorified pro bono cop??? I wouldn't recommend doing anything. If you are concerned about some crime in the area, talk to some of your neighbors regarding crime in the area and neighborhood watch programs.

Just remember it is survival of the fastest. Like the story of the two guys walking in Alaska and come upon a Grizzly bear. One guy bends down and ties his running shoes. His friend looks at him saying, "You are nuts to try to outrun a Bear". The other man finishes tightening his laces and says "Forget about the Bear, I just have to outrun you..."
 
Helping out your neighbor is part of the American way of life. I've held thieves who were taking parts from my neighbor's vehicle at gunpoint for the sheriff myself. There is nothing wrong with that and it's a way of life in rural America. I've been to numerous calls where a property owner or neighbor was holding a thief or trespasser at gunpoint.

However, organizing an armed group, be it called a militia, vigilance committee, neighborhood watch, security company or any other name you can think of is crossing some legal and political lines you don't want to cross.

The civil and criminal liability you are taking on is staggering. What are your state's laws on making a citizens arrest? Does your state have any laws concerning unlawful restraint? What are the legal requirements in your state for being an armed security guard? What about the legal requirements for a private company to engage in the armed guard business? Are violations of those laws criminal or civil offenses?

How much insurance do you think you might have to carry? Judgments in excessive force cases can go upwards of a million dollars. Is there an insurance company who would even write a policy for an untrained, unsanctioned armed force?

Getting a group of neighborhood residents together to man a roadblock or patrol the neighborhood after it's been devastated by a tornado or hurricane until the authorities arrive is one thing. Forming an armed force to routinely respond to crime in your neighborhood is something else.

Fear of untrained citizens taking the law into their own hands is one of the big arguments used against expanding CCW. The public, even with all the griping that goes on about all the failings of our criminal justice system, does not want, and rightly fears armed groups taking the law into their own hands.

I understand your frustration with crime and applaud your desire to do something about it. But I can see no good coming from your idea.

Jeff
 
PremiumSauces said:
1. I'd prefer you not use the term "militia" - that is a very important concept - the term is reserved to refer to the whole body of the people of the U.S.A., as armed by the 2nd amendment and referred to by federal statute. Pick another name, please, to eliminate confusion - maybe "posse"?
How about "Armed Neighborhood Watch"?

I can see the local LEOs welcoming that with open arms. :D (end sarcasm)
 
Neighborhood Watch

A neighborhood watch is a fine idea.

If one's neighbors are all on the same page with regard to arms, and if one's neighbors are well practiced with arms, and if one goes shooting with one's neighbors regularly, and if one has established a level of personal trust with one's neighbors, and if one has established an understanding -- at a personal level -- of the protocols, then the use of arms in a situation of mutual defense would not be a necessarily horrible idea.

Absent any of those conditions, things get pretty rocky.

Moreover, it would have to be on a person-to-person level, not as an overtly organized group. From an openly organized perspective, the generally and widely accepted "neighborhood watch" thing is a fine foundation. Use of arms in that context would necessarily be a matter of individual judgement given individual training and individual observation and assessment.

In other words, the conditions needed to make it a good idea are probably (for most people) unattainable.

Oh, and BTW, giving your effort a name which, in today's group-hug society, will draw the most fire from the public and officials alike . . . why would you want to do that to yourself?

The object of the exercise is to create a mutually supportive defensive group of neighbors. If your objective is, instead, to see how many people you can frighten into working against you then, by all means, pick the most dramatic and most widely misunderstood name you can think of.

How about Uber-Force Tactical Vigilante Militia Werk?

Me? I'll stick with Neigborhood Watch -- and keep my alliances private, thank you very much.
 
When I bought my place in the mountains back in '01, one of the local residents made it a point to tell me that up here, people take care of their own problems because there is no law enforcement.

I didn't realize at the time just what he was telling me, but since I have always handled my own problems it didn't faze me. Since then I have discovered just how bad rural law enforcement is, with 2-3 hour response times, "dirty cops" making money off the drug trade, law enforcement refusing to deal with the pot farms and drug labs in the outlying areas, break ins by the local druggies, etc.

Suggesting that armed citizens take up the slack may well be the only realistic solution left if the "official" law enforcement fails to do it's job.

Sad to see it happening, but it is, all over America.

I am not advocating vigilante groups, but it sure is frustrating watching nothing happening.
 
could get a lil hairy when your neighbor calls you over to help and you end up shooting his son in law for him. i'm fairly choicy about who i go chaging out to save. getting old takes too long to saddle the white horse. when i was younger the idea got me excited though. before i learned life brings enough trouble without going out looking for extra
 
After some thought, maybe educating our neighbors and getting to know local/state police would be a good first step.

Also, I personally wasn't at all offended but one of the mods picked up on it: I guess maybe it would pay to be careful about using the M-word.
 
"Neighborhood Militia" indicates the armed-and-able members of a community defending the community from a group that threatens the community as a whole. Formally setting up such a group could bring on all kinds of problems (a "third-rail" sociopolitical issue). In my community I'm sure I can make a few phone calls and bang on a few doors and have a suitable group functioning in a few minutes (maybe not enough to take on an organized professional squad, but certainly to hold off a rioting mob or some such); proactively arranging it formally might not go over well, but it can be achieved under suitable circumstances.

This, however, is very different from what you're asking about.

Your question, as others have observed, is making arrangements between individual neighbors - not as a community initiative - to deal with mundane crime. At best, it's a hopped-up "Neighborhood Watch" that aspires to being a community police force ... which, as noted, can get you in a LOT of legal hot water.
 
Grandpa Shooter said:
Suggesting that armed citizens take up the slack may well be the only realistic solution left if the "official" law enforcement fails to do it's job.

Just a note on this comment here. The Citizenry ALWAYS steps in when official "law enforcement" fails. This happens de facto, as power comes from the consent of the governed in our society, the citizens. So whether we like it or not, it is ours to do or to be victimized by it.

If there are duty cops / bad response times in your areas, then you need to take that up through official channels. Power isn't something that "they have" and "we don't", but something that you lease to them for a season.

Grandpa Shooter said:
Since then I have discovered just how bad rural law enforcement is, with 2-3 hour response times, "dirty cops" making money off the drug trade, law enforcement refusing to deal with the pot farms and drug labs in the outlying areas, break ins by the local druggies, etc.

In essence COMMUNITY is where the "sheriff" derives his authority. That means that if you had 51% of the county voters present at a meeting and you RE-CALLED the sheriff and elected a new one, then he would have to vacate his position. Certainly the new sherriff would have as much authority as the old one. Anyway, just food for thought.

You could always SPLIT from the other county... That is an interesting option. Kind of philosophically entertaining to go down these roads.
 
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I live in a condo complex, and a couple years ago I contacted my two neighbors on two separate occasions that their garage doors were open; I was concerned because some mutant had gotten into my garage and ripped off my tools.

My one neighbor must have been impressed with this because one night shortly thereafter he let me know that my door was open (I knew it was but appreciated the gesture).

A month or so later, my other neighbor Norm (age 60) heard or saw something in his patio, and grabbed a baseball bat to investigate. In the darkness, he challenged a guy who promptly bailed over the wall. Turns out it was that other neighbor who had seen Norm's garage door open and tried to close it by hitting the door opener button and dashing back out, but he didn't make it! Good thing there wasn't a shooting.
 
The old 'Hue and Cry' I like the concept however problems inside other peoples homes are best dealt with by the occupiers instantly and by uniformed police as a last resort.

I am all for neighbours dealing with problems in the street or other open places as best they can until (if in some cases here) the police arrive, but I would not be comfortable with clearing someones home FOR THEM.

If one of my neighbours asks for or is clearly in need of my help I am willing to help out, but I would not enter a dark and unfamiliar house knowing that the occupiers and criminals were present. That is just too many complications for me to deal with I am afraid.
 
RX-178, be a good witness and call 911 - anything more & you risk going broke or ending up dead.
 
most of my neighbors are gun-grabbing liberals. 90% of them are for Obama so getting to know them is somewhat out of the question.
 
Fear of untrained citizens taking the law into their own hands is one of the big arguments used against expanding CCW. The public, even with all the griping that goes on about all the failings of our criminal justice system, does not want, and rightly fears armed groups taking the law into their own hands.

I think maybe advocating "taking the law into their own hands" is maybe a little far afield for what he was proposing. However, that is how these things normally end up whether that was the intention or not.

An examination of Iraq will show you clearly how bad things can get when the militia becomes a force unto itself.
 
most of my neighbors are gun-grabbing liberals. 90% of them are for Obama so getting to know them is somewhat out of the question.

Glad Jesus didn't take that route with sinners.

Why don't you get to know them, and possibly convert them? Is your course of action to ignore that they support Obama, and hope that somehow, they'll disappear?

-Sans Authoritas
 
An examination of Iraq will show you clearly how bad things can get when the militia becomes a force unto itself.

An examination of Katrina will show you clearly how bad things can get when you don't do anything at all.....
 
I like the idea of a Neighborhood Watch and Mutual Assistance Association. Problem is, I figure that more than half of my neighbors are illegal aliens or coyotes. Even if we wanted to create such a group, they'd bail out at the first 9-1-1.

A militia-type group, of course, is an even worse idea.
 
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An examination of Katrina will show you clearly how bad things can get when you don't do anything at all.....


Which part?


What I later saw on the news about Katrina (we were out of communications for 8 weeks-- no TV), it seems that the vast majority of the firearms issues of Katrina fell into one of two categories:


1. Problems WITH the government TAKING firearms.

2. A very small percentage of thugs who decided to actually shoot at the emergency workers.


In problem 1, the lesson has been learned-- both by the populate and the LEO community. I hope it sticks.

In problem 2, I fail to see how a neighborhood militia/watch/whatever would have prevented it. It reminds me of the story of the frog and the scorpion.

The scorpion promises that he will not sting the frog if he will get him across a river. Halfway across the scorpion stings the frog. The frog asks why did he do it since now both of them will die. The scorpion responds "I know, but I am a scorpion. Its what I do."

The caliber of person who was shooting at emergency workers is going to do what they are going to do. NOTHING is going to prevent that. You just deal with it as it comes up.


The VAST majority of the "firearms-oriented" benefit was for families who needed to protect their property from being stolen from looters. Again, a militia is useless here. Why? Because 100% of the "militia" has to protect their OWN homes and properties.

If you were to spread a force out to protect that many homes, you end up with the EXACT same thing as families taking care of themselves without the need for a militia. It is a simple mathimatical dispersion.


But....


As I've said on numerous threads, during Katrina, we didn't sit around being rows of sandbags with our rifles waiting for a frontal assault.

My father-in-law and I spent our days doing the following:

- Cutting trees.
- Dragging off trees.
- Cooking food that would thaw in the freezers
- Procurring fuel
- Delivering food and water to elderly
- Delivering fuel to outside family (my parents)
- Boarding windows
- Fixing weatherheads


My wife and Mother-in-Law spent the day:

- Cleaning the home
- Caring for young children
- Keeping young children from being so bored.
- Planning meals
- Washing clothes


Obviously, you can see that there wasn't a lot of time to play soldier. Now, there WAS need for firearms when we had looting attempts 3 times. But that was at night when everyone was at home.

We never left the home unguarded, but at the same time, we all had work to do.


In short, in OUR case, everyone in the community had too much to take care of in thier OWN homes to go out and do militia work.

My observations showed that any "organized" efforts developed from natural synergies and connections.

For instance, most would not expect someone to be concerned about a neighborhood 20 miles away. But My mother and father were there. My house was there-- even though I could not get to it. Because of this, I spent every other day in a community 20 miles away making rounds and checking on elderly family friends. Soon, they could expect to see me every 48 hours, and they would have lists of things that they needed for me to procure in my dealings.

I'd let them know in advance when I was planning a trip to Baton Rouge for supplies, and they would let the word out. Sometimes, I'd show up at a house, and representatives of 4 or 5 families would be there with requests and payment if they were able to.

But this all came about from the natural family, church, and community connections.


That, in my opinion, is the extent of any ability to organize during a Katrina-like situation.


I'll end with this observation that I hope some will remember....


Do NOT thing that "No News is Good News" with elderly neighbors. The elderly rarely want to be seen as a "burden" and will not let you know if they are doing without. Just showing up and saying "Hi" will not prompt many to let you know they are suffering. Ask questions. Use your eyes. Offer your help.

If you show that you are genuinely concerned, you will find the real story. We had a couple elderly people in our community who tended to not stock much food-- since they were only eating for the two of them. They ran out rather quickly, but no one knew until my father considered this and went to check it out.

The same happened with me and one of my Father-in-Law's neighbors. She was a widow who stocked very little. But she was so proud that she would never say that she was in need. My Father-in-Law refused to take "No" for an answer and we eventually "adopted" her for the duration of the crisis.


Those are the people who will need the help of the young and able and likely have earned the right to expect it-- even if they don't see it that way.



At any rate, I hope this adds something to the thread.



-- John
 
I haven't read the rest of the thread

Said the THIRD poster!

Back on topic... I would be down for this, but all I can say is, If you ever DO have to do this, then HOLD ONTO YOUR BUTT.

Once the police find out that YOU walked across the street and shot a stranger is somebody else house... You will be screwed to the wall. you may be better off burying the guy in the back yard.
 
My self defense plans and firearms are for the purpose of defending my wife, my sons, and me in the event that we are targeted by someone who wants to harm us. My neighborhood includes some people I probably could trust and it includes some nutjobs, so I do not share with anyone that I have firearms. I am sure they see the NRA sticker on my truck and the deer mounts on the wall and assume I have firearms for hunting. We keep a low profile and will not be the defenders of the neighborhood unless I directly witness a crime that places one of my neighbors in danger. My first obligation is to my family and myself.
 
Here is the first scenario that came to mind:
You get the call, grab your gear and run next door. You step into the doorway as the bg is on his way out. You are now inbetween him and his way out (think of cornering a wounded dog), things will probably not go well from there. Even if he never intended to hurt or kill anyone before his mindset may have changed and you are threat #1. Going into a house when you don't know where anyone is or what they are doing is not high on my list of things to do.
 
This article from a regional TV station seems on topic for this thread...

lpl/nc
======

http://www.wsoctv.com/news/16438587/detail.html

South Charlotte Man Plans To Start Armed Neighborhood Watch

POSTED: 3:45 pm EDT May 30, 2008
UPDATED: 6:41 pm EDT May 30, 2008

CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- Neighborhood watch groups are common, but one south Charlotte man is taking the concept one step further.
Scott Yamanashi, a social studies teacher at West Charlotte High School, is forming armed watches. He's working with businesses in the NoDa, Plaza-Midwood, Dilworth and SouthEnd neighborhoods to patrol those areas.

He said, "We are not going out to engage anyone. We're not going out to start trouble or try to go in and fix it. We're actually just observers."

DISCUSSION:What Do You Think Of The Concept Of An Armed Neighborhood Watch?
http://www.wsoctv.com/forums/index....ssages.cfm?sitekey=char&Forum=628&Topic=18012

PDF: North Carolina Firearms Laws
http://www.wsoctv.com/download/2008/0528/16412769.pdf

He said he realizes the project could raise legal issues, especially if one of his people shoots someone. But, he said, he knows the law.

Eyewitness News reporter Jason Stoogenke asked City Attorney Mac McCarley if Yamanashi is overlooking anything. He said he wants more information before weighing in.

But other city leaders have already made up their minds. Charlotte City Councilman Andy Dulin said, "You have the right to bear arms. Now, that's fine if they do it in a legal way. If they start going around and strong-arming people and bullying people and doing things illegal, then we'll put our foot down on that, quick."

Residents of the neighborhoods to be patrolled, including Danny Gan, said they're surprised because they’ve never heard of an armed neighborhood watch, but said they like the idea. Gan said, "I would feel safer with it."

Yamanashi came up with the idea last month after he was shot during a robbery on his birthday. The bullet tore into his shoulder and left a deep scar.

Yamanashi plans to start patrolling Sunday night into Monday morning in Plaza-Midwood.
 
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